German tool laws question

[supersteve]

Perhaps Herr Monte or one of our other German members can answer a question for me.
About fifteen years or so ago I worked with a fellow from Germany (I'm an auto mechanic in the US) who told me that it was illegal for a tool company to sell a tool in Germany with a lifetime warranty. This was supposedly because traditionally the German companies didn't offer the lifetime warranty that US companies did and when Snap-On showed on the scene, the German companies didn't want the competion changing the rules and grabbing all the business due to a more attractive warranty policy.

Is this true or was he full of it?
Just curious.
Thanks.

 

[shoturtle]

Not sure, but I think snap on does have the same warranty policy throughout the EU. As there is a Snap on EU site, and a snap on Germany site. It would be interested to see.

PS I know they have a 30 year warranty in germany.

 

[shoturtle]

Okay I found it on the snap on germany website. But I am not sure it was in acted just for snap on. Think it was around before Snap on got into Germany.

Lifetime warranty?

Although there are Snap-on Tools International for tools with a lifetime warranty, the German competition law prohibits unfortunately the statement, "Lifetime Warranty".

Snap-on Tools believes that it is unfortunately forced to offer in Germany, "only" a guarantee of up to 30 years after purchase.

PS

Did some research. Limited lifetime warranty are consider consumer fraud in Germany. It does not define who's life. And if a product is no longer made, it does not define how a replacement of that model is handle after 30 years. And that it would be fraud if the customer has to pay to upgrade to a newer model that is no longer in production after 30 years. And how would a consumer get a replacement if the company stops operation in Germany.

It is not just snap on, but eastpak bags as well that have 30 year warranty. So any company can not offer a limited lifetime warranty in Germany.

 

[supersteve]

Thanks shoturtle,
This makes sense to me, I never really understood the whole idea of a "lifetime warranty". There are too many questions that just can't be answered, like the ones you brought up. And not to mention the damage caused to a company by the "legacy costs" that start to mount after a generation or three (as some speculation I've seen on the Craftsman tool issues). It seems to me that some businessmen make decisions to establish unsustainable situations knowing that when it becomes a problem in fifty years, they'll be dead. All that just to grab the business then and there.


Limiting that is just good common sense. Something in short supply these days.

 

[tronvex]

I just purchase Wera ratcheting screwdriver which is giving me problems after a week of usage. Couldn't find anything on their warranty about their ratcheting products. So I wrote to company to see of they would cover it under their screwdriver warranty. Appraently they do, so I'm sending it to their north america disrict office up in Canada. Hopefully they'll repair otherwise I'll just stick to Snap On screwdrivers.

 

[shoturtle]

In the us the warranty of the wera is different then Germany. Not sure if it is limited lifetime warranty or not. But never had an issue with wera warranty in the us.

 

[Monte]

shoturtle explained it perfectly. Maximum warranty over here is 30 years.

 

[Krokodil]

This is very interesting. So South African Gedore must be better than the German stuff because we get a lifetime warranty!

 

[Monte]

It´s just because of the german laws, it´s not allowed to offer more than 30 years warranty in germany.
If you do so you will get a letter from the Competition Commission/Office of Fair Trading with a bill

 

[Sparkfarmer]

Do the companies service the warranty as if it were a lifetime warranty despite the "official" 30 year stipulation?

 

[joeswamp]

How many laws would I be breaking in Germany if I opened up a Harbor Freight and starting selling all sorts of unsafe POS tools?

 

[supersteve]

Do the companies service the warranty as if it were a lifetime warranty despite the "official" 30 year stipulation?

I do know that the German fellow I mentioned earlier did say that, in his experience, the Snap-On dealers would warranty stuff without asking to see paperwork for an original purchase date, no questions asked. A sort of de facto lifetime warranty.


Also, I'm interested to know if the German companies tend to offer the full thirty year warranty limited by law or if they offer something less.

 

[Monte]

Do the companies service the warranty as if it were a lifetime warranty despite the "official" 30 year stipulation?

i dunno, i´m too young
but Hazet for example writes on their german website in the FAQ section that the warranty regulation by law is valid but beyond that they give a "Full quality guarantee" and that they will replace any product with material or manufacturing defects.

Once i emailed Gedore and asked which kind of grease they use in their ratchets, the answer was i should send the ratchet in for re-greasing.
They didn´t ask for a receipt etc.

How many laws would I be breaking in Germany if I opened up a Harbor Freight and starting selling all sorts of unsafe POS tools?

If the tools are made to DIN standards don´t contain toxic materials and are labeled with the importers name or brand name on the tool you can sell them here..

Also, I'm interested to know if the German companies tend to offer the full thirty year warranty limited by law or if they offer something less.

in most cases products sold here come with a 2 year warranty (minimum warranty). Maximum warranty is 30 years. Buildings have minimum 5 years warranty. Used products can have less warranty.
However some companies offer a better warranty (Snap-On , iirc Victorinox etc.). Sometimes stores offer a better warranty for example 5 years or i found a store who offers 7 years for example for the Proxxon power tools. Kress power tools come with 10 years warranty for example (common are 2 to 3 years). Hand tools mostly only the warranty by law (2 years) , Felo offers 15 years though.
But in germany only, in other countries you might find a lifetime warranty for german tools too. More info on warranty in the US:
http://www.samstagsales.com/warranty.htm

 

[shoturtle]

Besides din, it needs to pass Tuv as well. Which is a pain and pricey, Hyper pro suspension finally got Tuv approval to be street legal in Germany. Without it, insurance claims in accident could be denied. Ontop of not passing inspection preventing registration or fines if caught using on the street. Tuv approval on tools is just as important if you are selling tools in Germany. It reduces your liability.

But that is one reason they do not need a million lawyers to review every single bolt spec. It is a give and take, and in the long run, it is cheaper to get Tuv then to have an army of lawyers like in the US.

 

[davesnothere]

What is DIN, anyway?

 

[shoturtle]

It is like ANSI in the US.

 

[davesnothere]

Does it stand for something in particular?

 

[bajones238]

DIN = Deutsches Institut für Normung e.V. (German Institute for Standardization).

 

[wafrederick]

There is a way getting Germans mad,pronounce Knipex wrong.

My last name is German by the way and I get asked this sometimes

 

[jensputzier]

There is a way getting Germans mad,pronounce Knipex wrong.

Haha, we don't angry by someone pronouncing it wrong, just listen to most Germans speaking English

What we could get mad about is telling the guy in the first part of the video how to pronounce it right and after the second guy leaves he keeps saying Nipex....

Anyway as long as you enjoy the technology, you're free to call it as you like

 

[Robbie UK]

I worry that the tool companies know something about my life expectancy that I should know. The German rules make a lot of sense as it stops the 'Lifetime' oversell. Fluke is one of the worst here with their 'lifetime' warranty:

Lifetime is defined as seven years after Fluke discontinues manufacturing the product, but the warranty period shall be at least ten years from date of purchase. *(Lifetime Warranty applies to products manufactured after October 1996). The warranty does not cover normal wear and tear of mechanical components. This warranty covers the original purchaser only and is not transferable. This warranty covers the LCD for 10 years only (state-of-the-art for LCDs). To establish original ownership proof of purchase is required.

 

[Monte]

I worry that the tool companies know something about my life expectancy that I should know. The German rules make a lot of sense as it stops the 'Lifetime' oversell. Fluke is one of the worst here with their 'lifetime' warranty:

wow that´s a short Lifetime ! Do they calculate in dog or cat years ?

 

[ricleh]

I worry that the tool companies know something about my life expectancy that I should know. The German rules make a lot of sense as it stops the 'Lifetime' oversell. Fluke is one of the worst here with their 'lifetime' warranty:

I believe the manufacturer is referring to the product's lifetime, not your lifetime. It seems reasonable to only warranty the product for a limited time after it becomes obsolete. Especially electronic devices such as Fluke manufactures.

 

[Hawk321]

Right maximum is 30 years and inside the EU we have 2 different kinds of warranty...curious...ask the german Snap on dealer for warranty details...you get nothing !

Opel (german GM) offered it too...lifetime warranty for the Insignia (same as buick)...with a little ****** star at the end who linked the truth in the sub text...

Lifetime = Max 160 000 Km..(or something like that)...well the some people opened a lawsuit and won it...

 

[shoturtle]

That is why Opel is not allow to say that in Germany or in Ireland. It is completely misleading to the buyer thinking you have a lifetime warranty. But you have to pay for repair parts and it only last 160000km.

 

[oldtools]

It´s just because of the german laws, it´s not allowed to offer more than 30 years warranty in germany.
If you do so you will get a letter from the Competition Commission/Office of Fair Trading with a bill

How do they know how old the tool is or when it was bought?

 

[shoturtle]

If the company is willing to replace the tool after 30 years it is not a problem. I have talk to companies in germany about thing that I have brought that have left the warranty period, so company just replace it free of charge. They just can not claim it has a lifetime warranty. They just can not claim a lifetime warranty, unless they spell it out completely in the warranty info.

And no company is willing to do that. They might not want the expensive of tracking a customers tools purchases for 30 years, as they will need to expand their data base and have more people working on it. Then you run into the possibility of data mining which violates a bunch to german privacy laws. Your personal data is private in Germany. So if they maintain that with a database. They have a ton of security safe guards they have to put in place base on the privacy laws. Thus more money has to be spent of a none profit generating resource.

But no they really can not tell when the item was brought. But the companies have an idea base on the model. They do refresh their line up periodically. Less so with tools then backpacks. But base on style the model lines does change. So they know about the possible max age of the item.

PS

In german law warranty items has to be replaced with a new product, not a refurb item.

 

[Monte]

How do they know how old the tool is or when it was bought?

Keep your receipt

 

[Robbie UK]

I believe the manufacturer is referring to the product's lifetime, not your lifetime. It seems reasonable...

How daft is that. So I could design a product, say to keep drinks cool, and then guarantee it with a lifetime warranty.

I'm going to call my product 'Everlasting Ice Cubes' complete with 'Lifetime Warranty'*.

*= Proof of ownership required. Item must be returned by post in a plain brown envelope. Warranty excludes normal wear and tear.

 

[Hawk321]

In german law warranty items has to be replaced with a new product, not a refurb item.

No, wrong. They can also fix a malfuntion without to replace the "part"....chech the BGB for details.

 

[shoturtle]

Not with in the first 2 years. It has to replace with new. I had that checkout out with german law books. Maybe after 2 years you can get refurb. But not in the first 2 years of any warranty period.

 

[Hawk321]

You mean "Gewährleistungrecht" ??? This is not a real warranty and it gives you the right to fix something if possible.

Example you buy a Hazet ratchet at a local store and it's defective. The vendor can replace the inner mechnism or give you a new one....

 

[oldtools]

Keep your receipt

Who keep their receipt for 30 years. Also the receipt ink begin to fade away after several years. Maybe the German has better ink.

 

[shoturtle]

No with in the first 2 year it needs to be replaced with new. I had to replace a nespresso areocino recently. They ship us a new one. Under the 2 year warranty it needs to be replaced with new. If a company offers longer. They can offer refurb.

Or they can repair the one you have but with new componate. But a replacement has to be new.

 

[SpiderGearsMan]

The USA kept Germany free to pursue what their opinion of excellence is ...jury is out on that one ..with a lot of German products

 

[Monte]

Who keep their receipt for 30 years.

nobody

Also the receipt ink begin to fade away after several years.

as planned

Maybe the German has better ink.

nope