Getting electric service

[Skip Fix]

My electric provider out in the country where the shop is has to know what all the electric draw will be for the shop. We can't plan for the future for the drop and what the house and well will take, only the shop because it is the only thing built. They want amps for EVERYTHING lights, compressor, lift, welder before they will even drop a transformer there.

So you guys have any specs for a 2 post lift(will move a friend's old on in from storage), 5 hp compressor, 220 volt MIG, lots of lights(saw some 6 bulb fluoro hanging fixtures at an indoor dog training facility)

 

[Stuart in MN]

Check to see if your utility has a worksheet you can fill in, many of them do - you enter the various motor horsepowers, number of lights, if you have electric heat, A/C size, etc. and it automatically calculates the loads for you.

By the way, I recognize your name from the PY forums.

 

[justsam]

90 Amps if all are run concurrently. Of course that is a real SWAG, because a little more information is needed.

How big is the MIG? It most likely will be the largest, however intermittent draw. Just how much lighting?

As stated above, HVAC can be huge if used.

 

[Ross/Kzoo]

What size panel wil you be installing? How big will the shop be?

 

[Skip Fix]

Shop is 3500 sq ft. I'll look at the MIG it is at a friend's house.

I know friends that have a shop and house said they have a 400 amp service but my provider wants exact numbers just for what I have not that we'll build a house in a couple of years and have more need!

Might have to tell them I am going to put a BIG A/C in too.

Finally got a shop built for all the car projects , mainly Pontiacs!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Houses with 400a service are huge with all electric appliances, multiple ACs. Etc...

Will this be a one man shop?

 

[dw1]

Ask your power company about "Up Front Costs" are there any from you? if you say your projected load sheet data is *** and you just have lights/receptacles they might be looking for some $$$ Just check so you are not blind sided. I put a 400 amp service in for my brother in laws tree nursery, they made him put up $3500 for the equipment/transformer/high voltage line back inside property. ( I ran the underground pipe to the transformer, the power company pulled the cable.

 

[mryyc]

I work for the rural util. company here. Ask them for the tools to calculate load, they should have them. If you were here we'd have a set of questionnaires to run you through and would ask for specific equipment loads for things that are high draw, if you were residential with a pole barn it would probably be a 200A service and no questions asked, because there's no house they might be treating you like commercial.

They want to make sure they size it right for you to make sure you determine the right service size, but also the right rate class for actually getting billed. For a larger (typically commercial) service you are going to get a break on the up front cost because they are assuming you are going to use a minimum amount. It happens all the time that people will estimate a way high number to get more of the cost invested from the company, without realizing that they are putting themselves into a higher rate class and increasing their monthly bill - most companies will have in the contract that you pay a percentage as high as 2/3rds of what you're signing up for whether you use it or not.

 

[Mustang51js]

They just want a general idea,so figure out what you want and add everything up. You don't need exact numbers for the items you may get,but look stuff up to give an idea of the draw for each thing. It's not as bad as you think,they just don't want you putting a 100 amp service and end up using 200 amps

 

[Ross/Kzoo]

They just want a general idea,so figure out what you want and add everything up. You don't need exact numbers for the items you may get,but look stuff up to give an idea of the draw for each thing. It's not as bad as you think,they just don't want you putting a 100 amp service and end up using 200 amps

There's good info given above. One size doesn't fit all. Same with the electric utility. You don't go buying clothes without knowing your size. The utility has an an investment that can take years to recover and they don't want to under size or over size their equipment.

 

[Skip Fix]

I understand they need to get a ball park to get it right, told them a house was in the future a year or so-they just would size it for what is there right now no future planning-which form what you said might be good but I know a friend they charged more to upgrade when he built the house. The guy sounded like they wanted and entire specs on each piece like compressor HP, amps, etc. I'll see if they have a calculator to use.

Part of why I had them out was so I could get an estimate, then add on my side of getting wire to the shop from their pole costs to budget it.

One man shop -welder 2 post lift, bench grinder, drill press, 5hp compressor maybe a lathe at some point and if I hot the lotto a dyno. Lights,Refrigerator, microwave, water well pump next to the shop.

If I get too old to race then at least I can build motors for the dyno.

 

[Ross/Kzoo]

Maybe you need to talk to a different technician at the power company. The one that you are dealing with doesn't sound very experienced ( I was a technician with the power co. for 38 years). It sounds like he's overwhelmed.

 

[Aceman]

Maybe you need to talk to a different technician at the power company. The one that you are dealing with doesn't sound very experienced ( I was a technician with the power co. for 38 years). It sounds like he's overwhelmed.

I wouldn't say that. I've worked with one power company engineer and he's VERY thorough on all the preliminary paperwork before he even starts designing his side of the service.

Like someone else mentioned, see if they have a form you can fill out and then go from there.

 

[dw1]

ask him for a "Load Sheet" or you might be able to find one online on their website.

 

[James-W]

That you need to do all this just to get a new electrical service is rather unusual, at least around here it would be unusual. What we do around here is we tell the electric company what size breaker panel we want (up to 200 amp) and the electric company will install the cable (up to 100 feet) from the pole to the building for free. I guess different power companies do things differently.

 

[astroracer]

My shop is full of equipment. 2 lathes, The Frankenmill, 2 post hoist, 7.5hp compressor, 2 welders, grinders, lots of lights, etc... I have a 100 amp panel powered from the house. One man shop and never had an issue with being under powered.
If you ever think there will be a big mill or lathe in your future go with a 200 amp panel but, for most of the stuff you will be doing, 100 amps will be plenty.
Mark

 

[Skip Fix]

Mark thanks for a size that is usable. No big mill or lathe.

I emailed them asking about a Load calculator to finish it up. Then do I run 600 FT of copper or aluminum!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

600' of wire?

The service should be installed right at the shop!

 

[Skip Fix]

If they string it to get the transformer at the shop I have to give them a 10' easement and nothing can be built under it, poles and wires. I was planning on burying the cable in conduit.

 

[HotwheelsYJ]

When we put my building up (2650 ft from road) the power company supplies 700 ft of wire. I paid a set amount for each foot farther out. We also had to pay for any poles, junction boxes & conduit that was used.
We chose to run it all underground in 2.5" conduit because we had access to a backhoe. The price difference between overhead & underground was a wash. With the added benefit of no power company easement for underground.
There is a junction box / pull point every 600 ft & the transformer is 100 ft from the building.

The shop has 200A service & In the future if I build a house on the property, I can have them tie into any of the junction boxes & set a separate transformer for the house. The engineer said the main line was capable of handling 6 - 200 amp services which is the max allowable on a "private drive" in my county.

 

[Skip Fix]

That looks great.Heck of a line! Friend who ran underground to his house got a Ditch Witch and cut the trench will help me.

Looked at several electric Drill presses etc when I was at Harbor Freight and they just had HP ratings no amps.

 

[sberry]

Some poco engineers are great and they got some paper pushers too. I try to design what follows their typical. I did one a couple of years ago where it was in everyones favor to make a change and the customer was willing to pay, they could have eliminated a run of hi line and a kettle thru woods with big trees but,,,, nooooo rules are rules and I didn't feel like kicking it up the ladder.
I ran in to the customer the other day and he mentiond it ,,, wish maybe I would have etc. I tried to push up the value of underground. It would have come in along the property line where he couldn't build anyway. We did come in ug for 50$ and improve some but it was less than ideal.

 

[bczygan]

I'm worried, as you were in a post above, that the planning for the future house is not being taken into account.

You need to make that a part of the equation.

Your service needs to be sized for both the house AND shop.

If the POCO won't do that, then I would calculate the house and shop grand total myself. Then I would give them an inflated shop list that got me the total service I would need after the house was added.

A good service planner will give you options that tailor the install to your situation and needs so that your costs are minimized, now and in the future. A bad one won't care if you end up spending way more down the line.

Protect yourself by examining all the possibilities and alternative ways to do this.

Bill

 

[sberry]

I agree, talk to someone else at the poco and get this straight. If building a house is a reality then it needs to be accounted for. A modern service is 200A for single family, yes you can do more and get by on less but this would be standard for a normal home and garage/workshop combo.

 

[DC73]

Looked at several electric Drill presses etc when I was at Harbor Freight and they just had HP ratings no amps.

If you know HP, you can calculate amps. 1st, multiple HP by 746 (746 watts per HP) to get total watts. Once you know total watts, just divide by the voltage for the device (either 120 or 240 in your case) to get amps.

Example: 5HP * 746 = 3,730 watts. 3,730 watts / 240 V = 15.54 Amps


DC

 

[Skip Fix]

Here is an aerial of the property and where everything is and going to be.
Power option will probably be from the front . If we go from the neighbor's line on the side line would be where the house will be and they would have an easement and I would nee a 3rd party easement from the neighbor to cut across his road/driveway.

 

[hh76]

Are you saying that the neighbors have a line run along their driveway? If so, that will be the way to go. 3rd party easement is usually pretty simple, and they can bore under the drive to avoid any mess for them.

Figure for the future. Let them know that you will have a working shop, with a few 5+ hp motors and will have a home in the future.

They are looking for the load info for a couple reasons. That need to size a transformer to handle your needs, and they will need to determine the size and length of the service cables. I doubt that they are expecting exact loads on a residential service, as most people (electricians included) aren't really capable of providing that. They just don't want to be surprised with an unexpected large load, such as a geothermal pump.

 

[Skip Fix]

The distance is almost the same from the side as well as the front and either buried or poles(their preference) would be about where the house will go. They would have to get easement form the neighbor(I don't think an issue he bales hay on it now for me) but they want to go to a pole on my property from his.

 

[Skip Fix]

So sent them a list of equipment volts/amps that I had specs for on the motor but they want more specifics-how many outlets equipment with A, B, C and Neutral load specs. Come on that stuff is not even on the equipment! I guess I'll just get solar panels.

Here is what I sent them for the equipment I have actual specs on. No sense drilling a well and the specific pump until I get electric for it!

 

[Aceman]

Did you ask them if they have a load sheet you can fill out?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Are u getting 3 phase service?

 

[zyx5432]

Pattison? Is that a little west of Brookshire? Who's the power co?

 

[Skip Fix]

Yes Pattison is just west of Brookshire-Centerpoint. One phase. No load sheets they have to help-at least none the ONE guy that handles all of the new services. Why we are still trying to get this after 2 months! Guess they want me to just put solar panels on the roof and a wind turbine in the middle of the pasture and make my own!

Here is the format they want

 

[dw1]

I feel your pain, I have had my underground service inspected, trench back filled, seeded and strawed, grass is coming up and I'm still waiting for the power company to hook it up, but I'm only at the 1 month stage right now. Patience, it will get hooked up eventually. I think the only one in a hurry are the ones waiting for power. Good Luck!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yes Pattison is just west of Brookshire-Centerpoint. One phase. No load sheets they have to help-at least none the ONE guy that handles all of the new services. Why we are still trying to get this after 2 months! Guess they want me to just put solar panels on the roof and a wind turbine in the middle of the pasture and make my own!

Here is the format they want

If they dont have a load sheet then make one with excel or take a blank sample one from online. They need this so they can size the transformer and make sure the primary can handle the load without too much voltage drop...

 

[Skip Fix]

I'm not even asking to get hooked up yet just the plan where we will get it dropped! Guess I'll have to have an electrician try and figure out what they want before we even start wiring the shop.

You know a new house they drop pole,meter and a line and at least there are plugs the workers can hook into-surely they don't have exact numbers until they get the exact appliance model installed.

 

[Ross/Kzoo]

I'm not even asking to get hooked up yet just the plan where we will get it dropped! Guess I'll have to have an electrician try and figure out what they want before we even start wiring the shop.

You know a new house they drop pole,meter and a line and at least there are plugs the workers can hook into-surely they don't have exact numbers until they get the exact appliance model installed.

With a temp service drop they size the service for 100-200 amp with 4TX OH or 1/0 UG service. The transformer would be sized for your permanent service, 10 KVA or 25 KVA. The power company doesn't want to undersize or oversize what they install and change it out at a later date. $$$$$$.

 

[sberry]

That's pitiful and part of this probably started with the OP asking a couple too many questions. I point, 200A service drop here. I have a number in my head like calculated peak load of 144 and know if I have all gas appliances or all electric. There is no reason to do a new install of this nature for less than 200A.

 

[sberry]

You do not need to calculate drill presses, this is in the outlet figure. Similar to a kitchen appliance or common vacuum cleaner.

 

[Skip Fix]

When I asked about what they needed initially the guy said "all of the equipment and appliances".

I realize they want to get it right the first time but they could be a little more helpful what more they need. Also they said they did not care if I built a house in a year it would only be sized for what is there right now-so we build a house in a year or 2 and then it may need upsizing. A 200 A is kind of standard residential size from what I understand-shop will not draw more than that so heck just figure on dropping a 200A! Kind of hard to even figure costs to get it wired and what will exactly be put in if they won't even tell me where the drop will come from unless the load analysis is right on.