Getting more electricity to the garage

[skelrad]

My attached garage only has 3 lights and 2 outlets, and it's driving me nuts. The lights are on a single 15 amp circuit and the outlets are on a 20 amp circuit. I'm planning on adding a bunch of fluorescent lights onto the existing light circuit and adding as many 120v outlets as I can in parallel on the 20 amp circuit. What I'm missing is a 240v outlet, so I figured I'd pull another wire or two from the house panel and get a couple of 240v outlets in the garage for my compressor and bigger tools.

My question - my basement is largely finished, and the wire run will have to come from the opposite end of the basement. I'd like to limit the amount of damage I have to do to the finished ceiling when pulling the wire. There is a boxed in part of the ceiling that runs perpendicular to the joists from the area of the panel to the other end of the basement. It contains both a supply and return duct for the HVAC. I've found references to code that indicates you can't run wire IN the metal ducts (at least parallel in it vs perpendicular through it), but is there any issue with running it inside the framed in box alongside the ducts? In order to limit the openings I'd have to make in the ceiling for wire hangars, I'd like to run the wire in some sort of conduit, since I assume I would need to use fewer hangars that way. The run in the conduit would probably be around 15 feet or so.

I'll have to pull a permit to do this work, so I'd just like to get my ducks in a row and do it right. There's nothing worse than having to rip things apart for an inspector! Any advice would be welcome.

 

[KenC]

Before we 'assume' the answer: is this a detached garage or attached to the house?? Big difference in potential answers.

 

[DirtRoad]

Before we 'assume' the answer: is this a detached garage or attached to the house?? Big difference in potential answers.

Read the first sentence, not much to assume

 

[Teej2012]

Read the first sentence, not much to assume

Lol
Interested in this thread as well

 

[theoldwizard1]

I'll have to pull a permit to do this work ...

Why ?

... is there any issue with running it inside the framed in box alongside the ducts?

No. If it were "new" construction you would have to secure (staple) it along the way. Much more leeway with retrofit.

I'd like to run the wire in some sort of conduit, since I assume I would need to use fewer hangars that way. The run in the conduit would probably be around 15 feet or so.

Conduit would allow you to use individual stranded conductors instead of NM cable. The biggest problem with conduit is corners (elbows) and terminating it into the existing breaker panel and the new box in the garage. You need to be conduit "end to end".

I would size the conductors for at least 50A, run it into a small breaker panel, remove the wiring for the current 20A and then run outlets off of the new sub-panel.

 

[KenC]

Read the first sentence, not much to assume

wiping egg off face: Skipped right over that! Damn, hate it when I do that.

Now the question. There is no prohibition regarding wires parallel to but not in the ducts.

If its a straight shot and there's enough room to maneuver the sticks of conduit that would work great. Maybe easier than fishing romex. You can use a J-box at each end of the conduit if you want to transition from / to Romex from the individual wires in the raceway.

A small panel in the garage, as suggested by another poster would be nice.

 

[skelrad]

Thanks for the advice. So if I don't use conduit, what are the requirements for securing the wire? Do I have to open up the ceiling just to put a few staples in? That was the only reason I was thinking of using conduit, since I figured it would require fewer hangers. Like I said, the run in the ceiling will be about 15 ft before it opens up into my storage room that has an open ceiling. The rest of the run will be thru the storage room then up to the garage wall.

Also, I was assuming I would need a permit based on work like this. I wouldn't care except in WI you have to sign a disclosure when you sell stating that no unpermitted work has been done. Lie on that and you've got a whole new set of problems.

 

[Aceman]

Thanks for the advice. So if I don't use conduit, what are the requirements for securing the wire? Do I have to open up the ceiling just to put a few staples in? That was the only reason I was thinking of using conduit, since I figured it would require fewer hangers. Like I said, the run in the ceiling will be about 15 ft before it opens up into my storage room that has an open ceiling. The rest of the run will be thru the storage room then up to the garage wall.

Also, I was assuming I would need a permit based on work like this. I wouldn't care except in WI you have to sign a disclosure when you sell stating that no unpermitted work has been done. Lie on that and you've got a whole new set of problems.

If your town requires permits, by all means get one. I have no idea what Old Wizard was insuating by asking "why"?

Without seeing pics I can't recommend anything. Might be a simple as fishing NM/SER cable in the bulkhead with a j-box transition to conduit for exposed areas? Hard to tell without pics. You don't have to strap what you fish in concealed spaces.

 

[James-W]

Also, I was assuming I would need a permit based on work like this. I wouldn't care except in WI you have to sign a disclosure when you sell stating that no unpermitted work has been done. Lie on that and you've got a whole new set of problems.

I live in Wisconsin and I have heard that before, but I am not sure if that is a local thing or a State-wide law. In any case, there are several things you can do to your home and not need a permit to do it. For example, you can hire a roofer and have your leaking roof replaced and you don't need a permit. I think what they are referring to is that if you do any work that requires a permit but you didn't get one, then you have to disclose it. Work that you did on your home that did not require a permit doesn't have to be mentioned unless you want to mention it. At least that is the way I understand it to be. If I am wrong on this, please correct me, but that is the way I understand it to be.

Not to try to tell you what to do, but if it were you I would go to City Hall and find out for sure if a permit is required because I am pretty sure that putting in new electrical wiring is something you need a permit for.

 

[NCtim]

If the municipality requires it, I would pull the permit. Insurance could deny a claim if there was a fire. If the homeowner sells the property they could be liable for damages down the road. USA is a litigious society.

On that note, I don't pull permits any more unless I need something from a utility. I'm in the middle of nowhere and I don't want my house to burn down. I'm so extra-careful, double-check-it, OCD look at it again, it's amazing I ever button anything up anymore. LOL.

But, if that all he's doing . . . I'd just do it and not worry about it. Pulling one drop from the service panel and supplying a subpanel for 50A service could be done by a third grade kid if his dad was watching. JMHO

T

 

[theoldwizard1]

Without seeing pics I can't recommend anything. Might be a simple as fishing NM/SER cable in the bulkhead with a j-box transition to conduit for exposed areas?

The rest of the run will be thru the storage room then up to the garage wall.

Where I live, you are not required to run NM in a conduit in an open ceiling.

If you are going to put a 50-60A sub-panel in the garage, you are going to require #8 or #6 wire. NM in that size is kind of difficult to work with, but it is doable.

 

[T_Raven]

I'm rewiring my attached shop right now. Link to the thread in my sig.

My main load panel is 200A and there was a 50A sub panel in the shop. I replaced that with a 100A panel. Depending on how far you need to run wire from your panel and how many circuits you want to add, it might be a good idea to add a sub panel. It would really be a good idea anyway, you'd only use one 2 pole breaker in the main panel and then you could easily control all circuits in the garage right there in the garage. Running a bunch of individual cables can easily add up to the same cost as one big cable to supply a sub panel.

I got a permit for what I'm doing. They told me adding any circuit requires a permit. I was like $24 plus $5 per circuit I believe.

I've put in 3 50A outlets for my welders, 30A circuits for my lift and compressor. There are already a lot of outlets on the walls. But apparently all outlets in a garage need to be GFI protected, so keep that in mind. One GFCI outlet supplying all down stream of it protects them all. I've been able to fix a few things like having all my lights on one switch instead of 3 and wiring up the exterior light that had previously been disconnected.

As for lights, I have 6 fixtures with 2 bulbs each, 75w bulbs. 75w x 12 = 900w/120v = 7.5A. So in theory all those lights should only pull 7.5A. They were on a 20A breaker but I dropped it down to a 15A.

 

[tankd0g]

I'm rewiring my attached shop right now. Link to the thread in my sig.

My main load panel is 200A and there was a 50A sub panel in the shop. I replaced that with a 100A panel. Depending on how far you need to run wire from your panel and how many circuits you want to add, it might be a good idea to add a sub panel. It would really be a good idea anyway, you'd only use one 2 pole breaker in the main panel and then you could easily control all circuits in the garage right there in the garage. Running a bunch of individual cables can easily add up to the same cost as one big cable to supply a sub panel.

I got a permit for what I'm doing. They told me adding any circuit requires a permit. I was like $24 plus $5 per circuit I believe.

I've put in 3 50A outlets for my welders, 30A circuits for my lift and compressor. There are already a lot of outlets on the walls. But apparently all outlets in a garage need to be GFI protected, so keep that in mind. One GFCI outlet supplying all down stream of it protects them all. I've been able to fix a few things like having all my lights on one switch instead of 3 and wiring up the exterior light that had previously been disconnected.

As for lights, I have 6 fixtures with 2 bulbs each, 75w bulbs. 75w x 12 = 900w/120v = 7.5A. So in theory all those lights should only pull 7.5A. They were on a 20A breaker but I dropped it down to a 15A.

How long was your run to the garage from the main panel? I have 100' of 12/3 to supply my garage with 240v 20a and I find the voltage drop is significant when I try to run two tools at the same time on the 110v. for my new one I'm contemplating getting a second drop from the power company, because otherwise I will have a run of 150', and unless I go aluminum that's going to be pretty expensive.

 

[T_Raven]

My sub panel is about 25' from the main, so going up one way, across the rafters, and down the other is around 40'. I can't find the size on the wire but 1 AWG and 2 AWG look like they are listed at 100A depending on type and mine looks bigger than 1 AWG.

 

[tankd0g]

My sub panel is about 25' from the main, so going up one way, across the rafters, and down the other is around 40'. I can't find the size on the wire but 1 AWG and 2 AWG look like they are listed at 100A depending on type and mine looks bigger than 1 AWG.

That sounds about right. Last I priced 3 conductor 1 AWG here it was $8/foot, so 150ft. makes it a significant expense.

 

[T_Raven]

That sounds about right. Last I priced 3 conductor 1 AWG here it was $8/foot, so 150ft. makes it a significant expense.

Yeah I hear that. I was very pleased to see what I had was big enough.