Getting power to my shop

[Dodgepu360]

I need the GJ experts to look over my plan to make sure I’m not missing anything. I have an electric pole 85 feet away from my newly built shop. The pole has a meter and a 200 amp panel. The panel has a main breaker and has feed trough lugs at the bottom us the bus bars. If I understand everything correctly, I can connect to the feed trough lugs and run 4/0-4/0-4/0-2/0 aluminum cable underground over to my building. I plan to run it in pvc conduit. At the building I plan to run it up the outside of the wall to an emergency disconnect and then into the wall to the sub panel located immediately behind it. I will drive in 2 8-foot ground rods near where the conduit comes out of the ground.

This is the disconnect I’m thinking of using: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-..._-207055267-_-1-_-n/a-_-n/a-_-n/a-_-n/a-_-n/a

This is the panel I will be installing in the shop: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-...r-with-Cover-Ground-Bar-QO42L225PGC/320718528 Unless I need a main breaker on this panel?

The existing panel on the pole is a Square D QO so I figured I would stick with that.

What do you think?

 

[PhantomEB]

Definitely keep the same brand you Have already, make sure the local big box store has replacement breakers, trust me.

 

[PCustoms]

I need the GJ experts to look over my plan to make sure I’m not missing anything. I have an electric pole 85 feet away from my newly built shop. The pole has a meter and a 200 amp panel. The panel has a main breaker and has feed trough lugs at the bottom us the bus bars. If I understand everything correctly, I can connect to the feed trough lugs and run 4/0-4/0-4/0-2/0 aluminum cable underground over to my building. I plan to run it in pvc conduit. At the building I plan to run it up the outside of the wall to an emergency disconnect and then into the wall to the sub panel located immediately behind it. I will drive in 2 8-foot ground rods near where the conduit comes out of the ground.

This is the disconnect I’m thinking of using: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-..._-207055267-_-1-_-n/a-_-n/a-_-n/a-_-n/a-_-n/a

This is the panel I will be installing in the shop: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-...r-with-Cover-Ground-Bar-QO42L225PGC/320718528 Unless I need a main breaker on this panel?

The existing panel on the pole is a Square D QO so I figured I would stick with that.

What do you think?

What is your calculated shop load?

Assuming you need the high capacity of the wire you listed, you can probably run 4/0,4/0,2/0, 4.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

without knowing your loads, its hard to say if that wire will be overkill but it most likely is. especially if its a one man operation with minimum high power loads...

 

[mm08822]

The exterior disconnect is not required by NEC but is ok to do. Otherwise, buy a panel with a main cb.

For an easier pull, I would use individual aluminum XHHW-2 conductors in the conduit.

Come out of the ground on both ends with schedule 80 pvc.

Depending on freeze/thaw severity in your area, consider a expansion coupling at least at the newly backfilled end.

 

[u2slow]

You probably need 250kcmil (aluminum) to run the whole 200A off the feed-thru lugs. Otherwise use a smaller breaker to feed the shop on matching wire.

I wouldn't have an outside disconnect switch on my shop unless it was absolutely required.

 

[manwithtools]

Come out of the ground on both ends with schedule 80 pvc.

Curious why this recommendation, if the conduit is next a building foundation or wall I would expect Schedule 40 to be perfectly fine?

 

[Dodgepu360]

What is your calculated shop load?

Assuming you need the high capacity of the wire you listed, you can probably run 4/0,4/0,2/0, 4.

without knowing your loads, its hard to say if that wire will be overkill but it most likely is. especially if its a one man operation with minimum high power loads...

I haven't done a load calculation. Do you do one for the equipment you have or the equipment you want? I'd probably end up needing 2,500 amps of 3 phase power if I did the "I won the lottery and can buy every piece of equipment I've ever wanted scenario."

I'm sure its overkill but I have 200 amps available at the pole where it doesn't me as much good as it will in my building. Other than costing a bit more I don't see any harm. Like Call said: "it's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it"

I'm currently a one man operation but as my 2 sons get older and might get into doing their own projects I don't want to have to redo the electrical a few years down the road. Any money saved now by doing a lower amperage service would be lost and then some to upgrade later.

I'm getting by with 1 extension cord plugged into my RV now. As long as I don't need to do anything after dark, or need compressed air, or need to welding anything...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

You probably need 250kcmil (aluminum) to run the whole 200A off the feed-thru lugs. Otherwise use a smaller breaker to feed the shop on matching wire.

I wouldn't have an outside disconnect switch on my shop unless it was absolutely required.

no need. it would be considered an outside tap. The wire doesnt have to match the breaker size.

 

[PCustoms]

I haven't done a load calculation. Do you do one for the equipment you have or the equipment you want? I'd probably end up needing 2,500 amps of 3 phase power if I did the "I won the lottery and can buy every piece of equipment I've ever wanted scenario."

I'm sure its overkill but I have 200 amps available at the pole where it doesn't me as much good as it will in my building. Other than costing a bit more I don't see any harm. Like Call said: "it's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it"

I'm currently a one man operation but as my 2 sons get older and might get into doing their own projects I don't want to have to redo the electrical a few years down the road. Any money saved now by doing a lower amperage service would be lost and then some to upgrade later.

I'm getting by with 1 extension cord plugged into my RV now. As long as I don't need to do anything after dark, or need compressed air, or need to welding anything...

To each their own.

Based on that I'd run 4/0-4/0-2/0-4 XHHW-2 in the conduit you mentioned and breaker accordingly.

 

[Dodgepu360]

You probably need 250kcmil (aluminum) to run the whole 200A off the feed-thru lugs. Otherwise use a smaller breaker to feed the shop on matching wire.

I wouldn't have an outside disconnect switch on my shop unless it was absolutely required.

I'm looking at XHHW-2 wire and 4/0 seems to be good for 205 amps and 230 for 250 kcmil. After figuring in the voltage drop probably better to step up a size. The place I'm thinking of buying it from actually has the 250 kcmil slightly cheaper than 4/0.

What's your reasoning for no disconnect on the outside?
I was thinking it would be nice if anything ever happened, anyone would be able to shut it off when I'm gone and doors are locked. Vs. trying to figure out what to turn off at the pole. Although I guess if enough smoke was pouring out of the building for a neighbor to come investigate its probably too late.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I'm looking at XHHW-2 wire and 4/0 seems to be good for 205 amps and 230 for 250 kcmil. After figuring in the voltage drop probably better to step up a size. The place I'm thinking of buying it from actually has the 250 kcmil slightly cheaper than 4/0.

4/0 AL is not rated for 205a. youre reading the wrong column. the 90° column is for derating only

4/0 AL is good for 180a. If the calculated load is that or less you can use a 200a breaker since 180 is not a standard size

having said all that, I doubt you would ever pull anywhere close to 200a even with 3 people and if you did, your main would likely trip due to the existing loads in your house....

 

[Dodgepu360]

Curious why this recommendation, if the conduit is next a building foundation or wall I would expect Schedule 40 to be perfectly fine?

I believe NEC says to use schedule 80 coming out of the ground as it is subject to damage in that area.

 

[mm08822]

Curious why this recommendation, if the conduit is next a building foundation or wall I would expect Schedule 40 to be perfectly fine?

Mower decks and weedwackers can do some damage over time. If it is well protected( e.g. garden bed), then optional. One length of sch 80 won't break the bank compared to entire job.

Pvc gets brittle overtime in heat and sunlight.

 

[u2slow]

What's your reasoning for no disconnect on the outside?
I was thinking it would be nice if anything ever happened, anyone would be able to shut it off when I'm gone and doors are locked. Vs. trying to figure out what to turn off at the pole.

Upstream protection is the norm, as is a main breaker in the detached building's panel. Turning things off at a pole-mounted panel should be explicit and easy. If you have the money to be a belt AND suspenders guy, by all means.

Outdoor equipment has a shorter service life in this climate. We keep our panels, breakers, and disconnects inside as best we can, also for security/vandalism.

 

[manwithtools]

I believe NEC says to use schedule 80 coming out of the ground as it is subject to damage in that area.

I've found this to be very open to interpretation. You won't find any Schedule 80 in residential applications anywhere I've ever lived. NEC does not say when/where above ground 80 is required, it's only if subject to to physical damage.

352.10(F) Exposed. Schedule 40 RNC is approved for exposed locations
where not subject to physical damage [352.12(C)]. In
areas exposed to physical damage, Schedule 80 RNC, IMC,
or RMC shall be used.

 

[u2slow]

no need. it would be considered an outside tap. The wire doesnt have to match the breaker size.

Sounds like our tap rules are different then.

 

[PCustoms]

I've found this to be very open to interpretation. You won't find any Schedule 80 in residential applications anywhere I've ever lived.

Part I found funny when I did mine (and I used 80 for the vertical) was the required expansion coupling only came in sch40.

I also see pipe up the side of poles all the time that's been cracked by snowplows etc.

 

[mm08822]

I've found this to be very open to interpretation. You won't find any Schedule 80 in residential applications anywhere I've ever lived.

It is, but it is easier to do it once and lower the chance of needing repair.

 

[mm08822]

Part I found funny when I did mine (and I used 80 for the vertical) was the required expansion coupling only came in sch40.

I also see pipe up the side of poles all the time that's been cracked by snowplows etc.

Or poles leaning or frost heave.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

I've found this to be very open to interpretation. You won't find any Schedule 80 in residential applications anywhere I've ever lived.

Use #80 where there is a likelihood of physical damage.…….. Yes, it open for interpretation and ALWAYS check with the utility if this is for a utility service.
Near a flower bed?………use #40
Next to a driveway?……. use #80

TIP! Always install an expansion coupling when it comes out of the ground.

 

[manwithtools]

TIP! Always install an expansion coupling when it comes out of the ground.

Maybe in the north where you have deep freeze thaw zones, rarely if ever found in the south. Maybe in Texas where there are expansive soils.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

Part I found funny when I did mine (and I used 80 for the vertical) was the required expansion coupling only came in sch40.

I also see pipe up the side of poles all the time that's been cracked by snowplows etc.

Some POCO's want #80 PVC going up a pole to be facing away from traffic and they require sweeps.

Carlon couplings are UL listed for #80 and #40…….. I never came across a #40 "only" expansion coupling.

 

[manwithtools]

Carlon couplings are UL listed for #80 and #40…….. I never came across a #40 "only" expansion coupling.

I think what @PCustoms is referring to is the expansion coupling itself is only of schedule 40 wall thickness, just as most fittings are. The OD of 40 and 80 PVC conduit are the same allowing them to be used with the same fittings. The expansion coupling is no different from other fitting s in that regard.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

Maybe in the north where you have deep freeze thaw zones, rarely if ever found in the south. Maybe in Texas where there are expansive soils.

Unless the trench is "well compacted" prior to back filling there will be settling……. Sometimes only an inch or two but there will be settling. I have seen some 200 amp meter pans pulled down because of settling of the ground.
I suggested this to prevent future issues…….. Easy and inexpensive to do now instead of a year or two later.

 

[Dodgepu360]

Mower decks and weedwackers can do some damage over time. If it is well protected( e.g. garden bed), then optional. One length of sch 80 won't break the bank compared to entire job.

Pvc gets brittle overtime in heat and sunlight.

I was considering using metal rigid conduit where it comes out of the ground on both sides. But I don't know which is worse it getting brittle over time or it rusting out?

 

[Dodgepu360]

Unless the trench is "well compacted" prior to back filling there will be settling……. Sometimes only an inch or two but there will be settling. I have seen some 200 amp meter pans pulled down because of settling of the ground.
I suggested this to prevent future issues…….. Easy and inexpensive to do now instead of a year or two later.

I agree, it wont hurt. Thanks, this is something I didn't think about.

 

[manwithtools]

I agree, it wont hurt. Thanks, this is something I didn't think about.

If you add the expansion coupling, be sure to leave extra wire in the panel or meter base or disconnect - whatever the conduit comes into. If you don't have sufficient extra wire the expansion joint is of no help. How much extra wire depends on how much movement you think the conduit will endure due to soil movement. In most areas outside the freeze zones, it's minimal. I do know there are places in TX where soil movement can be a concern. Not sure about your exact location in Sequin

Keep in mind the conduit run is at the bottom of the trench, so 95%+ of the soil settlement takes place from the top of the buried conduit to the grade surface.

 

[mm08822]

Unless the trench is "well compacted" prior to back filling there will be settling……. Sometimes only an inch or two but there will be settling. I have seen some 200 amp meter pans pulled down because of settling of the ground.
I suggested this to prevent future issues…….. Easy and inexpensive to do now instead of a year or two later.

And our POCO is starting to upgrade everyone to smartmeters. Any meter pan that is loose, pulled away from house, conductors pulled tight, etc., is flagging the customers for repair first.

This is all due to settling next to foundation.

 

[manwithtools]

And our POCO is starting to upgrade everyone to smartmeters.

Are they the last in the nation to do this? It's already nearly everywhere I've been in the last 10 years.

 

[PCustoms]

I think what @PCustoms is referring to is the expansion coupling itself is only of schedule 40 wall thickness, just as most fittings are. The OD of 40 and 80 PVC conduit are the same allowing them to be used with the same fittings. The expansion coupling is no different from other fitting s in that regard.

Exactly.

I bought the stick, started laying things out, cut it in half (one riser at each end) and when I went back for the balance of fittings realized sch80 (wall thickness) didn't exist. So I've got nice beefy pipe and a just as fragile expansion joint...

 

[mm08822]

This one is getting ready to blow.....corner of the lug is cutting into insulation. Also pulling meter pan off wall.

 

[PCustoms]

This one is getting ready to blow.....corner of the lug is cutting into insulation. Also pulling meter pan off wall.

That'll make a pretty light show soon...

 

[mm08822]

Are they the last in the nation to do this? It's already nearly everywhere I've been in the last 10 years.

They're circling back to all of the older accounts. New services and upgrades get them automatically.

Want their number to complain?

 

[manwithtools]

They're circling back to all of the older accounts. New services and upgrades get them automatically.

Want their number to complain?

So these are older accounts? Then it's not settling, settling occurs in the first 3 years or so. If there are problems showing up in 10-20 year old installations, that's not settling, it's ground movement or frost jacking, totally different from settling. I don't disagree that those installations in your area should have expansion couplings and extra wire, it's just very regionally dependent.

If they are just now "circling back", they are substantially behind the rest of the nation. Most PoCo's completed that years ago.

 

[mm08822]

So these are older accounts? Then it's not settling, settling occurs in the first 3 years or so. If there are problems showing up in 10-20 year old installations, that's not settling, it's ground movement or frost jacking, totally different from settling. I don't disagree that those installations in your are should have expansion couplings and extra wire, it's just very regionally dependent.

If they are just now "circling back", they are substantially behind the rest of the nation. Most PoCo's completed that years ago.

Meters are replaced at some minimum frequency as specified by the BPU to ensure metering accuracy. Maybe last time they just recycled recalibrated meters.

This wave maybe has more $ allocated. Don't know, not my circus or monkey.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

, it's ground movement or frost jacking, totally different from settling. I don't disagree that those installations in your area should have expansion couplings and extra wire, it's just very regionally dependent.

The soil here is "different" and that’s why NJ is called the Garden State.

 

[mm08822]

I was considering using metal rigid conduit where it comes out of the ground on both sides. But I don't know which is worse it getting brittle over time or it rusting out?

Sch 80 pvc instead of grc. Grc instead of sch 40 pvc.

1 length cut into 2 along with sweeps and bell hubs on their ends could work.

 

[mm08822]

The soil here is "different" and that’s why NJ is called the Garden State.

Even sink holes!