Getting Power to Pole Barn

[LeoneSM]

I'm hoping some of you with more experience than myself can help me with safely getting power to my pole barn. I've got a 24x24 building/lean to that I'm going to use as a storage building and shop. I plan on setting up a 20A circuit for lights, another 2 for outlets and probably a 30A for a welder. The shop will be used just for projects and "weekend warrior' type of work as well as storing lawn mowers and equipment. I know 100A is overkill but if I'm running power out there I'd like to only do it once. Hopefully one day I'll have the funds to build a real shop and it would be nice if power was available. There currently isn't power anywhere near the structure.

Below is a picture of my load center that's located inside my laundry room of my house. As you can see, there isn't space available. There are three more slots that I could use tandem breakers, creating an opening to possibly put a 100A breaker (leaving one open slot) and then set up a sub panel in the barn. I ran my current configuration without the barn addition through an online load calculator and it came up with neutral demand at 92A and demand under load at 142A. Is this a safe method or do I risk overloading the load center with a 100A breaker and sub panel? One person I talked to said I had too many breakers in the panel, even though it was designed to use the tandems and I'm using them in the locations they're supposed to be. He said if I added the 100A breaker I would risk frying a bus bar. I'm not the expert but that didn't make sense to me. Doing it this way would put the panel approximately 310' from the barn. Would the 2-2-2-4 MHF I keep reading about be adequate for this length? If not, what do I need? I'm planning on trenching and running conduit, even with the MHF.

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Here's my meter socket and disconnect that's on the outside of the house on the opposite side from the barn.



Would I be better off (safer?) changing out the meter socket to one of the combo panels with a load center in it and running from the outside of the house? This method would have me trenching around the driveway and the run would be 375'. The upside to doing it this way is that I would still have 3 open slots in the main panel in the house and it would be fairly easy to add another if it was needed in the future.

How would you do this? I don't want to break the bank but I also refuse to do something that's a safety hazard or questionable. I've asked a couple of different people and done a good bit of reading but I can't seem to get a definitive answer. Thanks for your help

 

[Mustang51js]

I would bet if you had everything on in your house you would still be pulling less than 100 amps. You could test some of your circuits and combine them or get a tandom 220 breaker,which would give you the extra two spots you need for the sub panel breaker.

 

[pattenp]

At over 300' for a 100A sub feed 2-2-2-4 MHF isn't going to cut it. You'll need 3/0 or 4/0 aluminum wire for that distance.

 

[JoeFin]

Being that you only want to do it once - you'll want to go with a 100 amp sub in the shop

Strange they didn't use the "Main Disconnect" in the subpanel in the laundry room. So essentially you have no "Line of Sight" disconnect for the subpanel - if I'm seeing that correctly. They could have back feed a breaker for your main disconnect on the subpanel. Not so sure if that would be savy with the UL listing for the breaker they back feed.

 

[pattenp]

So what does line of sight have to do with the location of a sub panel and the main service disconnect?

Being that you only want to do it once - you'll want to go with a 100 amp sub in the shop

Strange they didn't use the "Main Disconnect" in the subpanel in the laundry room. So essentially you have no "Line of Sight" disconnect for the subpanel - if I'm seeing that correctly. They could have back feed a breaker for your main disconnect on the subpanel. Not so sure if that would be savy with the UL listing for the breaker they back feed.

 

[LeoneSM]

The panel in the laundry room is one of the ones that can either be set up as a main lug or a main breaker. I agree that it's a little odd that they didn't use the disconnect spot available in the panel or at least use a meter socket/load center assembly that would allow for expansion on the outside of the house, especially because they're basically the same price.

So if I go this route and put a 100A breaker into the panel in my laundry room, I would need to use this breaker which has a maximum wire size of 1/0. The MHF was $1.47/ft and going to a 1/0-1/0-1/0-2 bumps the price to $2.74/ft. The 4/0 SER jumps the price to $4.36/ft. At that rate I would have more in wire than I have in the whole building! That hurts...

Is there another route that might be a little more cost effective? 4/0 cable is some serious stuff for a small shop. I understand the length, but that sure does seem overkill. I might have to look at dropping to 80A if it'll save that much money in wire.

 

[deter]

whats your location? What is the possibility of having your util. co. run a second service to your barn?

 

[Norcal]

Being that you only want to do it once - you'll want to go with a 100 amp sub in the shop

Strange they didn't use the "Main Disconnect" in the subpanel in the laundry room. So essentially you have no "Line of Sight" disconnect for the subpanel - if I'm seeing that correctly. They could have back feed a breaker for your main disconnect on the subpanel. Not so sure if that would be savy with the UL listing for the breaker they back feed.

No requirement for a main in the house panel as long as it's in the same building.

 

[LeoneSM]

I'm in southeast Georgia and my power company is GA Power. It's certainly something looking into but I've already explored that a little. My next door neighbor works as a crew leader for another local utility company and I asked him about it. He told me that it would probably be very expensive and suggested replacing the meter socket and then running power like we're discussing. He'll help me with the locating and trenching but can't do much else since it's a different company.

 

[Mustang51js]

Anytime you go into the house and the panel is more than 3 feet away you need a main disconnect either outside or right inside the house

 

[pattenp]

That's not a NEC requirement. Read NEC 230.70

Anytime you go into the house and the panel is more than 3 feet away you need a main disconnect either outside or right inside the house

 

[Mustang51js]

I don't have my code book on me but I know somewhere has the distance before you need a breaker on it,I know I can come out of the meter and go as far as I want on the outside of the house, but once you go into the house I was pretty sure it was 3 feet. This way you don't have unbreakered wire running through the house.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Being that you only want to do it once - you'll want to go with a 100 amp sub in the shop

Strange they didn't use the "Main Disconnect" in the subpanel in the laundry room. So essentially you have no "Line of Sight" disconnect for the subpanel - if I'm seeing that correctly. They could have back feed a breaker for your main disconnect on the subpanel. Not so sure if that would be savy with the UL listing for the breaker they back feed.

If the OP wanted to, he could buy the correct main breaker kit and install it, no backfeeding necessary. There is a knockout for the proper breaker. That being said, there is NO requirement for a disconnect of the panel in the house... at the panel. It is in a building with a disconnect on the outside and that meets the code requirements. Now, for another building, it will have to have a disconnect at that detached building if the number of breaker handles exceeds 6.

Line of sight requirement is for equipment that is hard wired, not for panels.

Charles

 

[Charles (in GA)]

I don't have my code book on me but I know somewhere has the distance before you need a breaker on it,I know I can come out of the meter and go as far as I want on the outside of the house, but once you go into the house I was pretty sure it was 3 feet. This way you don't have unbreakered wire running through the house.

His feed is breakered, by the one in the meter socket/combo panel. That is a circuit breaker, not a switch. I have that exact same panel on my shop, and I used a main lug panel on the inside of the shop as there is no need to spend the money on a main breaker panel when you have one three feet away outside.

Edit: my panel is slightly different, but I think it is because of vintage. The OPs door is hinged on the side, mine is hinged on top, otherwise they look identical.

Charles

 

[pattenp]

Mustang, I think you're dreaming that one up unless it's a local thing. Code only says the service disconnect if inside needs to be near the point of entrance of the service conductors. No mention of any feet limit. There is code that the service over current protection is to be integrated with the disconnect or located immediately adjacent to the disconnect.

 

[Mustang51js]

Mustang, I think you're dreaming that one up unless it's a local thing. Code only says the service disconnect if inside needs to be near the point of entrance of the service conductors. No mention of any feet limit. There is code that the service over current protection is to be integrated with the disconnect or located immediately adjacent to the disconnect.

Lol, yeah it's prob just a local thing,I know it's something I was taught and I guess sort of an unwritten rule around here. I know if I were to have a meter outside and ran a panel inside a basement more than 3 feet from where it enters the basement the inspectors will either fail it or say I should've had a disconnect. So the 3 foot thing kind of stuck with me.

 

[LeoneSM]

I'm not planning on changing the load center setup for the house, even though it is a little strange. Especially since we've now established that there's nothing wrong with it!

I guess now I'm looking at setting up a 60A breaker and subpanel so that I don't triple my cost on wire. Using the online wire size calculators, the MHF with the 60A should be fine. While I would really like to go with the 100A, it's probably not necessary for what I'll be needing in the near future. I looked into the power company providing another feed but that's cost prohibitive and would require the hassle of inspections. This whole pole barn project all started because my wife wanted me to build a carport to cover up her '65 VW. I've gone a little overboard but it gave me an excuse to get out of the house and also accomplished what she asked for...

Being that it's a gravel floor barn and it'll be a somewhat dirty environment, I think I'm going to use a 60A disconnect switch and an outdoor main lug load center - probably something like this mounted inside the structure.

 

[pattenp]

Use a main breaker panel. Simpler install. The main breaker is the disconnect.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_90283-82364-BR1020B100S11RN_0__?productId=3235049



*

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Use a main breaker panel. Simpler install. The main breaker is the disconnect.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_90283-82364-BR1020B100S11RN_0__?productId=3235049*

Yes, but that is a indoor use only. This would probably be classified as a damp location, so a 3R panel would be much better, and more pricey, and yes, you can put a main breaker in any panel easy enough. I would do that instead of a separate disconnect, which simply creates more work installing and more chance for problems since it is adding additional connections to fail in the future.

Get a panel with a copper or tin coated copper bus bar. Don't get one with an aluminum bus.

Charles

 

[Thruxton]

I'm in southeast Georgia and my power company is GA Power. It's certainly something looking into but I've already explored that a little. My next door neighbor works as a crew leader for another local utility company and I asked him about it. He told me that it would probably be very expensive and suggested replacing the meter socket and then running power like we're discussing. He'll help me with the locating and trenching but can't do much else since it's a different company.

We have a barn some distance from the house and across a creek. It has a separate drop from the utility pole and separate meter. I don't know what it cost (PO's did it) but it is certainly worth checking out with your power company, might be less than you think, esp. considering your projected wire cost(s).

 

[pattenp]

He linked to an outdoor panel but said it was going to be installed inside the structure so that's why I linked the indoor panel.

Yes, but that is a indoor use only. This would probably be classified as a damp location, so a 3R panel would be much better, and more pricey, and yes, you can put a main breaker in any panel easy enough. I would do that instead of a separate disconnect, which simply creates more work installing and more chance for problems since it is adding additional connections to fail in the future.

Get a panel with a copper or tin coated copper bus bar. Don't get one with an aluminum bus.

Charles

 

[sands35]

We have a barn some distance from the house and across a creek. It has a separate drop from the utility pole and separate meter. I don't know what it cost (PO's did it) but it is certainly worth checking out with your power company, might be less than you think, esp. considering your projected wire cost(s).

A new drop and meter cost me about $500 to the POCO to run a 60' underground 200 amp service. The $500 was pretty much only labor costs. 3 guys about 4 hours. I paid $50 for the meter base and the wires from the meter base to the breaker box.

That cost less than running a 90 amp service 120 feet from the house.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

A new drop and meter cost me about $500 to the POCO to run a 60' underground 200 amp service. The $500 was pretty much only labor costs. 3 guys about 4 hours. I paid $50 for the meter base and the wires from the meter base to the breaker box.

That cost less than running a 90 amp service 120 feet from the house.

I have a second meter with Georgia Power. Problem is, the monthly base meter charge adds up. If you don't use a bit of electricity, it will cost about $16 a month. That does include a small amount of power, but the Kw starts adding up quickly.

I went with a second meter for several reasons. I installed a 200 amp feed to the shop, and would have had to upgrade to a 320 or 400 amp service on the house, which is underground. Would have been messy and expensive. In addition, I DO NOT have an outside disconnect on the house, so I only have three wire going into the panel. Upgrading and adding dual disconnects, one for the house, one for the shop, would have meant replacing the three wire to the panel with four wire, and splitting the neutrals and ground, a real mess, nearly impossible in my panel, and I probably would have ended up replacing the panel altogether. I would have been without power all the while doing this.

I like having the second meter. When the underground to the house failed on a friday evening, I ran extension cords from the shop to the house to run lights and the fridge till Monday when the POCO got out to repair the underground service.

For what the OP is doing however, I would be installing a feeder from the house.

Charles