Getting started on my dream shop...

[Vettedrmr]

It's been so long since I've been here (lotsa life happening in the past 5 years) I almost feel like I need to re-introduce myself.

Instead, I'll introduce my dream shop. It's going to be part of our dream home, and I can't do anything except plan until our construction loan is approved. So here goes.

It's for recreational, not commercial use. 40x50x12 metal building, going to be used for storing and working on my cars and boat. 2 16x10 garage doors in front, 1 10x10 door in back so I NEVER HAVE TO BACK MY BOAT IN AGAIN!!! Wall/ceiling insulation from the factory. A side door and front door access, a few windows for lighting.

I want to coat the floors, and have good lighting (but not necessarily lighting worthy of a photo studio). Probably a 100 amp sub-panel from the house, and a 1/2 bath with utility sink. Heat will be propane (LNG isn't available) from the house supply, and will be used only sporadically when I need to work on a car when it's cold (if you've ever worked on a cold car with cold tools you know air temp isn't everything). Cooling, right now, will be large diameter ceiling fans.

A 2 post lift will be installed, 9,000' capacity and anchored to 8" deep slab (manufacturer only requires traditional 4" slab). Floor standing air compressor, 220V, probably 30-40 gallon tank. I already have the various workbenches, tool chests, cabinets to get started.

Walls are a point of contention right now. I want to have 8 ft. plywood walls, but the price of lumber is so sky-high right now that I'm going to have to wait for those prices to come back down to earth.

Well, that's about it for the intro. I've been reading, and will continue to read, but the questions, they're gonna start coming!

Have a good one,
Mike

 

[CraigStu]

Will this be attached or near your house? I ask because I know a lot of guys have sinks or half baths but dang that's a lot of expense. There have been a few times I have stripped to my undies to come into the house but I am 72 and can count them on a hand. Almost all my shoes are slipons so I just kick them off, blow myself off if sawdust is an issue, and walk in the house.

 

[nadogail]

Welcome to the forum. IMHO, all garages and work shops are a "work in progress and never really finished" there's always one more thing that we intend to add as time and resources permit.

At 81, I am beginning to consider "how long will it take to do, and do I really want to spend my time on that?

 

[ducksface]

Plan $100psf and be glad if it all settles at $75psf.
You're at $200,000 fully finished. We don't know your financial status and if this is a week's wages or a lifetimes wages, but we do know you need a loan to build the house.

Unless it's attached a build loan for it is unlikely.

It will add a big ol' zero as far as a bank appraisal is concerned.
It will add a lot of money if the person who wants it has the blue sky shop amount as down payment. Right now, that person who needs the $200,000 above and beyond will be you.

It will cut the buyer pool by about 98 percent on a want/blue sky cash ratio. Bad for you if you need a quick sale, bad for the bank who has to consider risk.

If you plan for less expense, you'll get more surprises. You'll be the guy who has no floor or no insulation or asking about cutting up cardboard boxes to insulate the non powered garage doors.
You need to think of how many posts you've read about a new owner putting the first floor or the first insulation in a 20 year old shop they just got for free with a house purchase.

Ignore those who say they have plywood walls and never bothered to call their insurance agent.

A consideration would be to find a dream home and shop already built. Let someone else take the $100,000 loss on the shop build.

 

[Vettedrmr]

Will this be attached or near your house? I ask because I know a lot of guys have sinks or half baths but dang that's a lot of expense. There have been a few times I have stripped to my undies to come into the house but I am 72 and can count them on a hand. Almost all my shoes are slipons so I just kick them off, blow myself off if sawdust is an issue, and walk in the house.

Attached is a thumbnail of the overall layout between the shop and the house. Utility sink is needed because of greasy hands. If we're going to have a sink, well, let's put a toilet there as well.

BTW, bank has no issue at all working the shop into the overall build plan.

Have a good one,
Mike

 

[Shoester]

Plan $100psf and be glad if it all settles at $75psf.
You're at $200,000 fully finished. We don't know your financial status and if this is a week's wages or a lifetimes wages, but we do know you need a loan to build the house.

Unless it's attached a build loan for it is unlikely.

It will add a big ol' zero as far as a bank appraisal is concerned.
It will add a lot of money if the person who wants it has the blue sky shop amount as down payment. Right now, that person who needs the $200,000 above and beyond will be you.

It will cut the buyer pool by about 98 percent on a want/blue sky cash ratio. Bad for you if you need a quick sale, bad for the bank who has to consider risk.

If you plan for less expense, you'll get more surprises. You'll be the guy who has no floor or no insulation or asking about cutting up cardboard boxes to insulate the non powered garage doors.
You need to think of how many posts you've read about a new owner putting the first floor or the first insulation in a 20 year old shop they just got for free with a house purchase.

Ignore those who say they have plywood walls and never bothered to call their insurance agent.

A consideration would be to find a dream home and shop already built. Let someone else take the $100,000 loss on the shop build.

You sure are a Negative Nancy, aren't ya?

OP - this is generally pretty poor advice; I'd ignore this post in its entirety.

 

[Vettedrmr]

It's all good. The post is good from a cautionary perspective, as costs *can* get out of hand quickly. We'll see how I do as this thread goes along.

So, questions. I've been browsing threads on floors, lighting, etc., but I are there any threads that aren't stickys that I need to go through?

Thanks, and have a good one,
Mike

 

[Cougar]

Your dream home, dream shop, sounds like you plan on staying there for awhile.
Looks like a good plan, I say if you can afford it go for it.
Can get the outside finished and do the inside yourself as time and dollars permit.

 

[LOW1]

Only you can decide if you can afford it and if you want to do it. The bank's interests are not necessarily the same as yours.

40 x 50 doesn't sound too piggish to me. Evaluate your neighborhood and see if the shop would stick out like a sore thumb or not. It would perhaps be a selling point where I am because the city's zoning gestapo would probably not allow it and most rural areas are subdivided and have covenants which limit/restrict the same.

Obviously don't do it unless you are going to live there a good long while.

And I would do what you can to maximize future enjoyment without breaking the bank. Upsized electrical wiring now in the house and the shed? A good siding like Hardi-board instead of metal? Decent windows and lots of them? The doors you will want in the future? Lighting that is easily expanded or maybe even install better lighting now? "Chases" or big conduits for hvac, compressed airlines etc before insulation? Shower, floor drains, etc roughed in now?

Cheaper to do these things "right" now rather than re-doing them later.

Sounds fun. Good luck.

 

[Vettedrmr]

THE reason we purchased the property where we did was that many homes in the neighborhood have metal building shops. Our back door neighbor has a 30x40 ft. shop with a fantastic resto-mod '71 Chevelle. So we're building with friends!

Have a good one,
Mike

 

[Bolson32]

You sure are a Negative Nancy, aren't ya?

OP - this is generally pretty poor advice; I'd ignore this post in its entirety.

Yea... this is at least the 2nd if not the 3rd time he's done this in the past couple of days.

We get it man.

Sent from my SM-N981U using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[logical]

If that door for the attached garage is only 16 ft wide, I'd strongly recommend going to 18',

Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk

 

[Vettedrmr]

Logical,

16' width is a standard 2 car garage door; don't want to go custom if I don't have to.

Have a good one,
Mike

 

[logical]

Logical,



16' width is a standard 2 car garage door; don't want to go custom if I don't have to.



Have a good one,

Mike

18 is not a custom door, it's just bigger. Don't confuse "standard" with "bare minimum a builder can still call a 2 car"

Sent from my garage.

 

[meathooker]

Consider bumping the rear door to 12’ wide. My buddy has 10’ on his shop it’s unnecessarily tight getting a trailer in. I can back by 28’ enclosed snowmobile trailer in first go - but why make it harder on yourself.

This is exciting news - good luck with the build!

 

[Vettedrmr]

Consider bumping the rear door to 12’ wide. My buddy has 10’ on his shop it’s unnecessarily tight getting a trailer in. I can back by 28’ enclosed snowmobile trailer in first go - but why make it harder on yourself.

This is exciting news - good luck with the build!

10 ft. is what I've always dealt with, so I guess that was why I went that way. BUT, my plan is for NOTHING TO EVER back in through that 10 ft. door; FORWARDS ALWAYS!!!

But seriously, I'll look into it.

Thanks, and have a good one,
Mike

 

[meathooker]

BUT, my plan is for NOTHING TO EVER back in through that 10 ft. door; FORWARDS ALWAYS!!!

But seriously, I'll look into it.

Thanks, and have a good one,
Mike

Haha I hear you on that one. When I designed my shop (also pull through) I had 12’ doors bc of my buddies 10’ doors. That same guy talked me into 14’ wide doors and I’m so glad he did. It’s been so nice having a ton of room pulling out.

 

[911TES]

I’d say 80 gallons on the compressor- 2 stage 240V.
100A service is probably okay, but if you’re into welders, machine tools etc., maybe more. (Maybe you’ll buy an electric F150 someday) Others here will know better. You will certainly want many convenient outlets.
Fun project.
My wife would certainly agree with the private location of the master bedroom.
Regards,
Bill

 

[Vettedrmr]

Quick update

Good news:

Got the metal building contract finalized. $17,*** for the building itself as described in the original post. Slab costs have been estimated at $10k, getting quotes on erectors now, but guesstimates are around $8k. The 3 garage doors are going to be around $5k installed. Add in some windows, lighting, floor finishing, etc. and I think I'm going to be close to my $50k ready to start moving in.

Not really bad news:

The appraiser came back with his evaluation of the house. He used comps from existing homes sold, nothing new or under construction. Shockingly, it was way below current construction costs. Like, $30/sq. ft. below.

Here's why it's not bad: my wife and I had paid off our previous house, so we have a big chunk of the total price waiting to be thrown in the new home and shop, so we're nowhere close to needing the appraised value of the house in a construction loan.

With luck the final work on the construction loan will finish up in a week or so, then we get to cut dirt!

Have a good one,
Mike

 

[rayra]

Very good. Having the Scratch to not have to start from scratch certainly makes a big difference. Congrats on moving forward with your dreamed-of space.

 

[SJay3660]

Are are you willing to share what company you are getting your metal building from?
Thanks
Steve

 

[shamus29]

I agree with the idea of bigger doors the shop I work at just put up a 43x30 icf building and we have an 18 foot door best decision we made in the whole build never have a problem getting anything out or in. I am in the process of putting up a garage at the moment at my house and we put in a 12 foot door for the price of a 10 and a 12 it was like 300 bucks in the difference. The 18 foot door was a standard door that just had to be ordered from the manufacturer no added cost for customization. One thing I also suggest is door openers pulling chains gets old quick.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Vettedrmr]

Are are you willing to share what company you are getting your metal building from?
Thanks
Steve

SBI metal buildings, here in Hot Springs. They're competitive with other steel building manufacturers in Arkansas, but I like staying local.

Have a good one,
Mike

 

[Vettedrmr]

Ok, so what's the summary on finished floor prep?

I'm wanting to put an epoxy/polyurea/whatever finish on my shop floor, and I want to know how I need to get the slab prepped.

I've read on it in the flooring forum, and best I can figure is that it's a coin-toss between acid etch and diamond grinding. It seems like I need to let the slab cure for a month minimum. Looks like the bank will let us get started in about a week, and I'm working on getting the foundation dirt work done ASAP and the slab afterwards.

Am I missing anything? I didn't really read anything about slab temperatures when applying the coatings, and that'll be happening here in Arkansas, probably in Jan-Feb timeframe.

Thanks for any help, and have a good one,
Mike

 

[imjustdave]

Re: Ok, so what's the summary on finished floor prep?

I'm wanting to put an epoxy/polyurea/whatever finish on my shop floor, and I want to know how I need to get the slab prepped.

I've read on it in the flooring forum, and best I can figure is that it's a coin-toss between acid etch and diamond grinding. It seems like I need to let the slab cure for a month minimum. Looks like the bank will let us get started in about a week, and I'm working on getting the foundation dirt work done ASAP and the slab afterwards.

Am I missing anything? I didn't really read anything about slab temperatures when applying the coatings, and that'll be happening here in Arkansas, probably in Jan-Feb timeframe.

Thanks for any help, and have a good one,
Mike

You might look up tile flooring in the flooring section there are a few big threads and they have me looking that direction now over epoxy flooring

 

[Vettedrmr]

I'm not a fan of floor tile: gets dirt, oil, etc. down onto the floor, then grinds it in to the concrete permanently.

But, thanks for the suggestion; all are appreciated!

Have a good one,
Mike

 

[Vettedrmr]

Need ideas on garage doors

Ok, so next on the list: garage doors. I'm going to have 3: 2 16x10 and 1 10x10 (those dimensions are firm, as that's how the openings in the building are spec'd out).

Climate in Hot Springs is moderate: highs in the mid-90s in summer, lows down in the low-mid 30s in winter. I'm intending on insulating the doors myself, both to keep costs and weight down. That said, I'm open to purchasing insulated doors, but the one door I've owned in the past (an insulated Clopay) had a sort of tongue-groove seal between the panels, and whenever things got slightly out of alignment they tended to bind.

So, with that said, what would y'all recommend? Price, as always, is a significant factor, but not the only one.

Thanks, and have a good one,
Mike

 

[Vettedrmr]

Just a quick update: slab was poured about 3 weeks ago, and it's been cool and fairly wet, so no problems with cracking so far. Metal building will be delivered and erected the week of Feb. 22-26, garage doors will be delivered (I'll be installing them, I've done it before), uninsulated (that'll come later) that same week.

While we've been waiting progress has been moving along on the house foundation, but that's a totally different subject.

Have a good one,
Mike

 

[larry_g]

Attached is a thumbnail of the overall layout between the shop and the house. Utility sink is needed because of greasy hands. If we're going to have a sink, well, let's put a toilet there as well.

BTW, bank has no issue at all working the shop into the overall build plan.

Have a good one,
Mike

One thing to check is will the county allow you 2 or 3 driveways? In my area only one road access driveway is allowed.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[Vettedrmr]

It's not an issue in our county (or city I think). Plenty have circle driveways in addition to their garage driveway. But even if it is I think I'd be OK because I'm building on 2 lots: the shop is on one and the house on the other. And the back drive goes to an alleyway, not a county road.

Good thoughts though; thanks!

And have a good one,
Mike

 

[Vettedrmr]

Well, 9 days later and the winter storm for the history books is winding down. We got 12+ inches of snow, low temps in negative territory for the first time in decades, etc. So we obviously lost this past entire week, and now the shop building is going to be delivered and erected March 2nd.

Garage doors are ordered, as are windows. LED lighting is ready to go up. Once I get everything dried in then next thing I'd like to do is get the floor finish applied.

I've read the Polyurea threads, and next step is to contact the suppliers.

So, in another 9 days I hope to have more fun photos to share!


Have a good one,
Mike

 

[Alpine4x4]

Looking forward to following this build, about the same size and layout as I want to do when we build in the next few years.

 

[Vettedrmr]

2+ months later, and the shop is just about ready to move in. So, let's get to the photos! 2 16x10 garage doors in front, 1 10x10 in back, which weren't too bad once I figured out the pitiful instructions.

Legacy Industrial's Nohr-S floor coating experience will be detailed in a following post.

As you can see from the front view, the main thing left to do before I can move in is cleaning up the driveway. Right now budget's tight enough trying to get the house finished that we're going with tidying up the existing large crushed rock just to keep it strong enough to drive our boat into.

Costs ended up roughly like this:

Metal building: $17,500
Dirt work (we're on the side of a hill): $8,000
Concrete: $12,000
Building erection: $8,120
Floor coating: $3,100
Garage Doors: $4,500
Lights: $350

Total so far: $53,570 for a 40' x 50' shop with 12' walls. I'm guessing another $1-2k for paying for the electrical panel (I'll do the circuit wiring), and the construction of the 5'x7' half-bath. Call it $56,000 total. So that comes out to around $28/sq. ft. Of course, YMMV. Our dirt work was $5k higher than we had been estimated, and of course the cost of the metal building has probably gone up with everything else.

Y'all have a good one,
Mike

 

[Vettedrmr]

So, about that Nohr-S floor coating (and don't call it PAINT!)

So, after reading as much as I could find on this forum, I decided to go with Legacy Industrial's Nohr-S floor coating system with the normal (not heavy) flake system. Our slab is virgin and has cured for about 3-4 months. Reading through LI's literature, and talking it over with Scotty (their tech specialist), plus the experiences documented here on grinding the floor surface, I decided to give LI's etching process a go. It's a in-house salt-based etch, friendlier on the body and the lawn.

So, away we went. Starting with the recommended 1:3 concentration, I didn't get much action. So I bumped it up to 1:2.5, settling on 1:2 concentration. Using plastic brooms, we scrubbed a roughly 100 sq. ft. area for 12 minutes per Scotty's instructions. You definitely don't want to do it in direct sunlight, as it dries QUICKLY when you do (we had a couple of areas we couldn't avoid), and we just kept wetting it down with etch solution. Then we power washed it, squeegeed it off, and let it dry. I sent a couple of photos in to Scotty, fingers crossed (the floor was definitely different, but not as rough as I expected), and he sent back the dreaded words: "I think you need to hit it again." Several days later (it takes a while to do 2000 sq. ft.) and got the word back "Looks good to me". I never could figure out it he really believed it or was just taking pity on me (I know it was the former, but we were really tired!).

Then we did the plastic cover test to ensure the concrete was dry (it was), and then we put the primer coat down. This is seems to be a traditional 2 part epoxy primer, has plenty of pot life, and goes on easily. My wife cut in the edges while I was laying down the coat. It took a while to get this done mainly due to having to let the primer "dwell" for 20 minutes after mixing. OTOH, it made for good break time.

All the time I've been doing this I've been promising myself I wanted a 90% solution (you know, 90% of the finished product takes 10% of the time, the remaining 10% takes 90%). After I put the primer coat down, and I saw all the defects in the slab, I kept telling myself "90% Mike, 90%". As this process went on I would start mumbling that to myself, to the point my wife started laughing at me.

You have to let the primer cure for 8 hours or so before putting down the color coat, so that was started the following morning. I'm not sure what kind of material this is, as it lives just fine in a bucket, but it definitely goes into a cure cycle once applied to a surface. IDK if it "catalyzes" on contact with air, or what, but it sure cures faster than just evaporative drying. In any case, you mix the "color packet" into the base clear. This material is DENSE, and doesn't really pour out of the can. I had to "help" it out quite a bit with a mixing stick. But it mixes in nicely in just a few minutes. This is also when you apply the flake, and you REALLY only have 10 minutes or so for the flake to stick. This is also where you make your floor "personal", i.e. most times the flake disperses when you throw it into the air, but occasionally it will fall down in a clump. "90% Mike, 90%".

After a couple of hours you then apply the clear coat. Just like the color coat without the color packet. This is also where you add the anti-skid material if you opted for it (we did). 6.5 tablespoons per gallon, and it definitely makes a difference! Because of the quick time between the color and clear coats it made for a long day (about 14 hours). But it came out looking great!

After about 5 days I can still smell the finish gassing off, but it's minor and certainly not objectionable. LI recommends good ventilation (duh!), and with all 3 doors open we never had any issues in the slightest, other than the occasional leaf and stupid bug.

In summary, I expect we'll be doing our house garage as well. If we do that I'll definitely use a rotary buffer machine with a scotchbrite pad for the etching. Other than that everything worked just as advertised! We hope to start moving in this week, so then durability will start being tested (not that I have any real concerns).

HTH, and have a good one,
Mike

 

[Vettedrmr]

Update: It's hard to believe it's only been a bit over 2 months since my last post, but thought I'd give a use update. House construction is still going strong, so driveways to the shop are still dirt/rock. As was the plan the shop is essentially being used for storage, so I've only been able to get a few things done.

One of those is lighting. Based on recommendations from GF, I picked up two 10-packs of LED lights, and they're working great! I've got 19 installed (had to leave out one due to interfering with the two garage doors and the center wind structure), but they give off plenty of light for general illumination (just running them off of a 100 ft. extension cord from temp power so far).

One other update is on the Nohr-S floor coating. It's seen a lot of dirt/grime that gets tracked in, either by foot or car. No wear that I've noticed. The other is oil drips. Two of the 3 cars that are parked there leak oil (hey, they're old), and I've missed the drip pans a few times, with the resultant drips staying on the floor for several days before I find them. They wipe up with a shop rag with no adverse consequences that I can find. I'm very happy with it so far!

Electrical, water, half-bath, all still waiting to be installed.

Y'all have a good one,
Mike

 

[scofo]

Very nice looking shop, congratulations. Thats looks like a lot of space for your 56k. Only 10% to go or is it 90%?

 

[Jayman17]

Nice looking shop, congrats and enjoy! Care to share any photos of the house?

Jay

 

[Vettedrmr]

Nice looking shop, congrats and enjoy! Care to share any photos of the house?

Jay

Here's one of the house...


And one showing the front of the shop with the house in the background...



EDIT: I just realized how lousy a post that was of the house description. My wife and I are in our 60s and, while in good health, want to plan ahead. So, single level (gonna have steps down to the shop), 3 bedroom, 3.5 bath, open concept living area. 9 ft. ceilings, roughly 2600 sq. ft. Splurges are air conditioned storage room (i.e. a downstairs "attic"), built-in 7.1 surround system, true 2 zone HVAC, and the piece-de-resistance: heated tile in the bathrooms!

Have a good one,
Mike

 

[zmotorsports]

Very nicely done. That turned out great. Congratulations on a fine build and now you get to enjoy it.

 

[nadogail]

Congratulations on your progress, looking forward to future reports.