GFCI Help Needed

[ARAMP1]

I recently added another circuit of four 120V outlets to the garage. In the position closest to the CB panel, I added a GFCI outlet. The problem is, as soon as I flip the CB on, it pops. I've replaced the GFCI with a regular outlet and have no issues. I could leave it like that, but I would like to have the GFCI protection. I thought the GFCI outlet might have some kind of internal short, so I took it back to Lowes and got another one, but the new one does the same thing.

The only thing I can think of now is that the GFCI outlet is rated at 20 amps, and the CB in the panel that I'm using is only 15 amps. I'm planning on picking up a 20 amp, it's just what I had available. I wouldn't think that this would be a problem with no load on the circuit, but I'm out of ideas. Any suggestions are appreciated.

 

[porcupine73]

When you say as soon as you flip the CB on, it pops, are you referring to the CB tripping, or the GFCI tripping?

 

[matt151617]

If the GFCI is tripping, it's detecting some sort of ground fault. The amp rating is meaningless and has no effect on the GFCI outlet.

What you need to do is start double checking every connection on every outlet in the circuit. A ground wire could very easily have been bent to touch a hot wire when pushing an outlet back in a box. Start at the breaker box and work your way through the circuit, checking the wiring in between.

If everything appears to be in order, start hooking up the outlets one at a time. Start at the GFCI outlet, disconnect the 3 wires going to the other outlets. Energize the circuit and activate the GFCI. If it doesn't pop right away, de-energize the circuit, hook up the 3 wires, and repeat at the next outlet, going down the line until you've found the problem.

If you're talking about the circuit breaker itself... well, you definitely have a short. Follow above directions. Is everything new? New breaker, new wiring, new outlets?

 

[PT Doc]

So you have a 20 amp gfci outlet on a 15 amp cb and it pops WITHOUT anything being plugged in? Something doesnt sound logical.

Have you wired it properly? Sounds like there is a fault somewhere.

What gauge wire on the circuit? This will dictate if you can put a 20a breaker.

More info is needed to sort this out.

 

[porcupine73]

Right. Even a neutral to ground short on the subfeed lugs of the GFCI will make it trip.

 

[ARAMP1]

Thanks for the quick responses. Just to clarify a bit:

The CB at the panel is tripping. It does this when all the outlets are wired together and it also does it when I disconnect all of the outlets after the GFCI.

Everything is brand new within two months (new house, CB panel, wires, etc).

I'm going to recheck the wiring from the CB panel to the outlet again, but I don't know where else to look.

 

[Milton Shaw]

Also look for screws on the sides of outlets that are still sticking out they can touch the box and trip things. I always tighten all the screws even if there is no wire attached to them. check Black to brass screw, White to silver screw and bare or green to green screw. Somewhere something is touching. Some double boxes I will even wrap the outlet/switch with electrical tape to eliminate the wires from touching side to side.

 

[ARAMP1]

I'll check that, but it's tripping even when the outlet and wire is pulled out of the box about 10-12".

The crazy thing is that it's only going about 5 feet over from the CB pannel. I can pull the wire in the panel and can see it moving over in the hole in the wall. Maybe something is messed up with the wire. I hate to re-wire it since it was a ***** to fish it behind the drywall, but maybe that's what needs to be done.

 

[ARAMP1]

Another thing:

The CB pops even if the GFCI is tripped or reset. I would think that it wouldn't if the GFCI is tripped also.

And, why is the CB not tripping when a regular outlet is in place? I'm starting to think that I have a bad GFCI outlet, but I'd be really surprised that two in a row would be bad.

 

[ARAMP1]

Here's a quick video of what's going on.

 

[vhol5]

Is the BREAKER a gfci????
Sure looks like it in the vid...

 

[rabidsquirrel]

That may be an AFCI.

Rip out the arc fault breaker and replace it with a regular breaker. When you move take out the GFCI and replace the AFCI.

Problem solved.

 

[ARAMP1]

Ahhhh, yes. It's an AFCI breaker! Didn't know that mattered. It was just the only extra one that I had. I'll try it with a regular one. Thanks!

 

[Racecarl]

I have a Square D QO panel. I got the neutral wire from the lights and one set of outlets turned around. When I would turn on the lights the GFCI breaker would trip, even with nothing plugged in to the wall circuit. I have all my wiring in EMT and figured I must have pinched a wire when installing an outlet cover. I checked them all and all were OK. I even got my megger and checked the insulation--everything checked perfect. After MUCH circuit tracing I found my crossed wires and routed them correctly. No problems now.

I see in the video that there is no neutral wire running to the AFCI breaker that keeps tripping. I would hazard a guess that is why the breaker is tripping. I don't know if you can have a GFCI downstream from an AFCI.

 

[internetdude]

Aha, yes. You shouldn't use both an arc-fault breaker and GFCI receptacle on the same circuit.

 

[pattenp]

You can use a GFCI on an arc fault breaker. Is the arc fault breaker installed correctly with a connection to the neutral bar?

Also make sure your arc fault breaker is not a dual AFCI/GFCI. You may not need the GFCI outlet.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Remove the GFCI receptacle, leave the wires hanging out, make sure they don't touch, then if the breaker trips, its the wire, or the breaker.

Charles

 

[ARAMP1]

Thanks for all the responses gents! I replaced the arc fault breaker with a regular one and it works like a champ now. Thanks again!

 

[Motofixxer]

Just don't tell your inspector

 

[matt151617]

How come you had an arc fault breaker in a garage? Those suckers are expensive, and the garage doesn't need them. Is there living space in the garage possibly?

 

[Motofixxer]

It's new construction, most new circuits need em. I have heard nothing but problems from people who have em. Electricians have to keep taking them out after inspection.

 

[ARAMP1]

Some of the circuits have them, some don't. This was a new circuit I was putting in and it was a spare breaker that was in the box.

 

[pattenp]

Are you aware 2011 NEC if adopted by your locality now requires that AFCI’s pretty much be on all 120v 15A & 20A circuits? If you even replace an old receptacle in an existing circuit that would require AFCI protection under the new code you have to replace that receptacle with an AFCI receptacle or add an AFCI breaker to the circuit. 2011 NEC 406.4 (D) (4).

 

[acer66]

Are you aware 2011 NEC if adopted by your locality now requires that AFCI’s pretty much be on all 120v 15A & 20A circuits? If you even replace an old receptacle in an existing circuit that would require AFCI protection under the new code you have to replace that receptacle with an AFCI receptacle or add an AFCI breaker to the circuit. 2011 NEC 406.4 (D) (4).

That applies also to a garage?
Does the 2011 NEC 406.4 (D) (4) not come to effect in Jan. 2014.?

 

[pattenp]

That applies also to a garage?
Does the 2011 NEC 406.4 (D) (4) not come to effect in Jan. 2014.?

210.12 does not mention garages but it list every other room under the sun including closets and hallways. I forgot to mention the Jan 2014 part, that is correct.

 

[ARAMP1]

Are you aware 2011 NEC if adopted by your locality now requires that AFCI’s pretty much be on all 120v 15A & 20A circuits? If you even replace an old receptacle in an existing circuit that would require AFCI protection under the new code you have to replace that receptacle with an AFCI receptacle or add an AFCI breaker to the circuit. 2011 NEC 406.4 (D) (4).

If that's truly the case, my builder didn't know it either when the house was built a few months ago. Less than half the circuit breakers are AFCI.

 

[ARAMP1]

So, if the AFCI breakers won't work with GFCI outlets, and if the AFCI breakers are going to be required, then I'm guessing that GFCI outlets are going away?

 

[acer66]

Not yet, the GFCI has a different function than the AFCI
but there might be a AFCI CB or recepticale with full GFCI protection soon.

 

[pattenp]

So, if the AFCI breakers won't work with GFCI outlets, and if the AFCI breakers are going to be required, then I'm guessing that GFCI outlets are going away?

GFCI receptacles will work on AFCI circuits. I changed out the old breakers with AFCI ones in an old home my son purchased and the bath rooms and kitchen have GFCI receptacles and all works with no problems.

 

[matt151617]

What a pain in the ***. There is no such thing as AFCI receptacles currently, and the AFCI breakers are $45 each as opposed to $5 each for a regular breaker.

 

[oleguy]

code reads afci protection for entire ckt.ther fore you can't use a afci recp even if they had one.entire ckt means fron breaker panel to end of ckt.

 

[rabidsquirrel]

GFCI receptacles will work on AFCI circuits. I changed out the old breakers with AFCI ones in an old home my son purchased and the bath rooms and kitchen have GFCI receptacles and all works with no problems.

Good, in your case it worked out. In ARAMP1's case, it didn't. Arc Faults are nothing more than a money maker for the companies that sit on the code panel.

 

[Motofixxer]

Good, in your case it worked out. In ARAMP1's case, it didn't. Arc Faults are nothing more than a money maker for the companies that sit on the code panel.

And just so happen to hold stock in strategic manufacturing companies

 

[pattenp]

Watch this Mike Holt video on 2011 NEC AFCI.

 

[BigJohn20]

code reads afci protection for entire ckt.ther fore you can't use a afci recp even if they had one.entire ckt means fron breaker panel to end of ckt.

Depends on the code revision. Depending on your wiring type, you can run certain wiring methods to the first outlet, and at that point it needs AFCI protection.

And here it is:
NEC 2008 210.12(B):

Exception No. 1: Where RMC, IMC, EMT or steel armored
cable, Type AC, meeting the requirements of 250.118 using
metal outlet and junction boxes is installed for the portion
of the branch circuit between the branch-circuit overcurrent
device and the first outlet, it shall be permitted to
install a combination AFCI at the first outlet to provide
protection for the remaining portion of the branch circuit.