GFCI keep popping

[rob in nh]

I have a water heater in a water tub for the animals and the gfi started popping. Thought it was a bad heater so we bought a new one, same problem. I decided try the heater in a bucket of water and it I tried all the plugs and its popped everyone that I tried. I did replace one gfi that got fried by what I think was a nearby lighting strike. I plan on having an electrician come to check everything out. Any clue as to what it could be?

 

[sparky 1971]

Are the water tanks outside? What kind of wiring to them? It sounds like a wiring problem to me. It could be as simple as a neutral and ground touching inside of a box. It could just as easily be bad underground wiring. Just about every similar service call I've been on in farm country was romex buried in the dirt. Others it was romex in plumbing pvc, on one other, somehow, the old boy get some 12/2 through some garden hose and put it in a ditch.

 

[My Old Tools]

Or worse, ROMEX run under the boathouse and dock draped in the water. It didn't have a GFCI until I added one on shore. Then I proceeded to rewire the whole thing.

 

[rob in nh]

The same electrical outlets that I tried that popped with the heater run a dehumidifier and built in house vacuum without any problems and in the garage I use the tools like a buffing wheel and it doesn't pop them.

 

[sparky 1971]

If the heater is the only thing causing the gfci to trip, it just about has to be the heater. I know you said it's new, but there isn't much else it could be.

 

[jkeyser14]

It could also be a bad connection on the outlet the heater is being plugged into.

 

[Terry D]

Are all the receptacles that you tried protected off the same GFCI . And also assuming the GFCI receptacle is wired correctly. A GFCI receptacle will only trip when there is a problem at the receptacle and beyond. if it is also protecting regular receptacles down stream, it will protect the wiring feeding those. It does not protect the wiring feeding power to the actual GFCI receptacle. Im with Sparky on this, if you replaced the GFCI receptacle, its the heater

 

[dmcintosh]

What is the draw from the heater, and what amp rated GFCI do you have? Are you simply over capacity?

 

[Terry D]

What is the draw from the heater, and what amp rated GFCI do you have? Are you simply over capacity?

GFCI receptacles are not over current protectors, the are ground fault protectors. A 15 amp GFCI receptacle will not trip when you have more than 15 amps pluged into it. The breaker/fuse feeding the circuit protects is for overcurrent

 

[dmcintosh]

GFCI receptacles are not over current protectors, the are ground fault protectors. A 15 amp GFCI receptacle will not trip when you have more than 15 amps pluged into it. The breaker/fuse feeding the circuit protects for over current

I always tell people I know just enough to be dangerous.

 

[sparky 1971]

GFCI receptacles are not over current protectors, the are ground fault protectors. A 15 amp GFCI receptacle will not trip when you have more than 15 amps pluged into it. The breaker/fuse feeding the circuit protects for over current

I doubt it is, but could it be a GFI breaker? I had to read the original post three times to figure out what was going on in the first place.

The same electrical outlets that I tried that popped with the heater run a dehumidifier and built in house vacuum without any problems and in the garage I use the tools like a buffing wheel and it doesn't pop them.

Is the GFCI that keeps tripping a receptacle or is it a breaker? If it's a breaker, there may be nothing wrong with the GFCI and you are overloading the circuit.

 

[bwringer]

I had similar issues in my house because the lazy ^%$#@!s who built the thing back-stabbed all the switches and outlets. Over time, these connections inevitably get loose and intermittent and GFCIs pop left and right at the slightest wiggle or imbalance.

I spent an afternoon crawling behind furniture with the house shut down and replaced all the switches, outlets, and GFCIs. Found some very scary evidence of overheating in several.

Anyhoo, as others have stated, checking for loose or intermittent connections throughout might solve the issue. It's cheap, easy, and could even keep you from burning something down.

 

[Terry D]

I doubt it is, but could it be a GFI breaker? I had to read the original post three times to figure out what was going on in the first place.

Is the GFCI that keeps tripping a receptacle or is it a breaker? If it's a breaker, there may be nothing wrong with the GFCI and you are overloading the circuit.

Im thinking it is a GFCI receptacle, OP used the word "popping", but I guess it could be a breaker and that would change everything

 

[sparky 1971]

Im thinking it is a GFCI receptacle, OP used the word "popping", but I guess it could be a breaker and that would change everything

I think you're probably right, I suspected a receptacle from the beginning, but started to wonder. Up to the North of you, I get calls starting in about late September from people complaining about their space heaters "popping" breakers, or fuses that turn out to be breakers. Pre LED's, I would start getting the same calls in November, but this time it was Christmas lights. They have their minds made up that the breakers are junk and want to argue the fact over the phone with me. It might be a regional thing, but I hear the word "popping" a lot more than I do tripping.

 

[Terry D]

I think you're probably right, I suspected a receptacle from the beginning, but started to wonder. Up to the North of you, I get calls starting in about late September from people complaining about their space heaters "popping" breakers, or fuses that turn out to be breakers. Pre LED's, I would start getting the same calls in November, but this time it was Christmas lights. They have their minds made up that the breakers are junk and want to argue the fact over the phone with me. It might be a regional thing, but I hear the word "popping" a lot more than I do tripping.

I see what you mean. We say tripping. We even say tripping when a GFCI receptacle pops

 

[rob in nh]

Its not a breaker, its the receptacle type. I plan on getting another heater and also have an electrician check it out.

 

[sparky 1971]

Then it has to be the heater.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

make and model of heater?

 

[nadogail]

The leakage current of the water heater may be more than what is tolerated by the GFCI.

We used to see this with the heaters used to evaporate the condensate from self defrosting refrigerators.

 

[AP514]

My bet is on the GFI recepticle.....

 

[FredWanaker]

are there any other GFCI on the same circuit?

 

[rob in nh]

Yes, there are 2 other plugs, one is outside and the other 2 are under cover. The outside plug isn't used.

 

[rob in nh]

Here is a picture of the heater or deicer

 

[FredWanaker]

the question was are there any other GFCI receptacles on the same circuit. If two or more GFCI receptacles are put on the same circuit they will trip each other. There can only be one GFCI per circuit. Example - I had an outdoor receptacle so I put in a GFCI years ago. It use to trip itself for no reason, so did the bathroom. Last year when mapping every receptacle in the house I discovered the outdoor receptacle was down stream of the bathroom. That is how they protected it when the house was built. So once the one outdoors was removed the one in the bathroom stopped popping, and the outdoor is protected by the one in the bathroom.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

the question was are there any other GFCI receptacles on the same circuit. If two or more GFCI receptacles are put on the same circuit they will trip each other. There can only be one GFCI per circuit. Example - I had an outdoor receptacle so I put in a GFCI years ago. It use to trip itself for no reason, so did the bathroom. Last year when mapping every receptacle in the house I discovered the outdoor receptacle was down stream of the bathroom. That is how they protected it when the house was built. So once the one outdoors was removed the one in the bathroom stopped popping, and the outdoor is protected by the one in the bathroom.

this doesnt make sense. how could they trip each other? the only way they trip is by a current imbalance between hot and neutral. a GFCI wouldnt cause that....

 

[FredWanaker]

Wylie - you can't put two GFCI receptacles on the same circuit and not have them trip each other occasionally. Try it sometime. Maybe someone else here can explain it to you. In theory it should not happen but it does. Since we took the second GFCI out of the same circuit, there have been no trips in a year. Used to happen every few weeks, and one was always tripped each time I went to use it. I even replaced them several times. Licensed electrician who did the last work for me said he also sees it all the time. We had all the attic insulation removed and while it was out I hired an electrician to go thru the whole house, and bring everything up to code as best he could. 40 year old home that I plan to sell soon if we aren't nuked first but then who will care. By documenting that the roof is new, the electrical has been looked over by an licensed electrician, the waste water pipes have been scoped, the main shut off replaced with a ball valve, the water heater new, new paint outside, no rot, bathrooms upgraded, HVAC checked and in good order etc., we should get a better price. I also know that there is nothing a home inspector will gripe about. As to two GFCI, I have no idea why they nuisance trip but they do and it is a known fault with GFCI. Besides you really only need to protect a circuit once.

 

[kaffine]

I know if you push the test button on the one farther from the panel it can trip both GFCI. I also know some devices with built in GFCI and built in self test will trip a GFCI outlet.

Last place I worked we had a clamp on ammeter for checking leakage current. It has to be accurate at a low range as GFCI trips with a 6mA difference between hot and neutral currents.

 

[ycgoat]

I put 2 GFCI outlets in series to satisfy a young inspector for an above ground pool, at my neighbors house. I told them what he wanted and told them I would change it out later if they had a problem. That was 5 years ago and have not had a call back. My wife speaks to them daily, so word would have gotten back to me if it had. I would expect both would trip if an imbalance occurred down stream.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Wylie - you can't put two GFCI receptacles on the same circuit and not have them trip each other occasionally. Try it sometime. Maybe someone else here can explain it to you. In theory it should not happen but it does. Since we took the second GFCI out of the same circuit, there have been no trips in a year. Used to happen every few weeks, and one was always tripped each time I went to use it. I even replaced them several times. Licensed electrician who did the last work for me said he also sees it all the time. We had all the attic insulation removed and while it was out I hired an electrician to go thru the whole house, and bring everything up to code as best he could. 40 year old home that I plan to sell soon if we aren't nuked first but then who will care. By documenting that the roof is new, the electrical has been looked over by an licensed electrician, the waste water pipes have been scoped, the main shut off replaced with a ball valve, the water heater new, new paint outside, no rot, bathrooms upgraded, HVAC checked and in good order etc., we should get a better price. I also know that there is nothing a home inspector will gripe about. As to two GFCI, I have no idea why they nuisance trip but they do and it is a known fault with GFCI. Besides you really only need to protect a circuit once.

Ive seen many houses with GFCIs feeding GFCIs and they never trip each other so....

Do you understand how a GFCI works? If you did then you would realize that the theory youre suggesting cant happen.

Youre literally suggesting that one GFCI creates an imbalance between hot and neutral of more than 5ma causing the other one to trip. Thats impossible. GFCIs dont create an imbalance between hot and neutral. All they do is detect if there is an imbalance.

 

[SlappyWhite]

this doesnt make sense. how could they trip each other? the only way they trip is by a current imbalance between hot and neutral. a GFCI wouldnt cause that....

GFCI may trip another GFCI if it is fed from the load (protected) side of the first GFCI, aka cascaded. This also happens with some older devices (say an old powered plumbing snake) that had built in GFCI and are then plugged into a GFCI protected outlet.

If they are on the same circuit but not fed through each other like this there is no problem. Power comes into the box and is pigtailed. It then feeds from the pigtail the next GFCI outlet and the local GFCI there is no issue.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

GFCI may trip another GFCI if it is fed from the load (protected) side of the first GFCI, aka cascaded. This also happens with some older devices (say an old powered plumbing snake) that had built in GFCI and are then plugged into a GFCI protected outlet.

If they are on the same circuit but not fed through each other like this there is no problem. Power comes into the box and is pigtailed. It then feeds from the pigtail the next GFCI outlet and the local GFCI there is no issue.

Nope BS

In your anecdotal story and claim you failed to provide any theory on how a GFCI could create an imbalance causing the upstream GFCI to trip. Making such a claim requires a theory of why it happens not just that it supposedly does.

The fact is, nothing in a GFCI could create such an imbalance. If a GFCI is tripping then either A), its bad or B) there is a ground fault issue that is causing it to trip.

My cord and plug connected above ground pool pump has a built-in GFCI plug. It in-turn plugs into the GFCI on my deck.

Guess what? It has never tripped

A friend of mine has a mini hot tub with a cord and plug connection. The plug has a built-in GFCI. It plugs into the GFCI on their concrete patio.

Guess what? It never trips...

 

[SlappyWhite]

Yeah I understand how a GFCI circuit works...

There are different quality of GFCI devices, different GFCI chips and even the circuits can be single coil vs dual sensing coil depending on application. As we know all it takes is 4 to 6 ma (5 ma) delta for over 2 ms by typical design, this can be caused by any circuit of the downstream devices, including crappy low quality GFCIs. All are induction based. YMMV.

The common Fairchild chipset data sheet:

https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/149/RV4141A-117494.pdf

BTW that chip can use a single coil design by looping the test circuit back through the sensing coil instead of bypassing it, then the second coil is "not needed".

Another potential false trip item, if you look at the circuit the drive to the GFCI solenoid is via an SCR, SCRs of course latch once triggered and we want it to here! (Latched until all power is removed). This can also be a cause of problems if there is noise on the electrical line as it can trigger the SCR to trip (false positive), in the circuit there is a noise shunt in that part of the circuit to prevent this in theory but real life can be different based on quaity and/or C3 can wrong sized or be failing. It is another one of those can't figure out why GFCI keeps tripping here but if I swap it to another line it does not fail.

Besides the fine electronics, as pointed out it is wasteful and beyond even that, test one and then find out which one(s) tripped...

 

[FredWanaker]

Some people just have to fall thru a roof before they will believe someone who tells them don't step there, it is rotten. Since I have seen two gfci's on the same series circuit randomly tripping each other more than once, even though NOTHING is plugged into them, I know it happens. It also happened when I put one in each bedroom on the same circuit. Don't know why and don't care why. All I know is if someone tells me that a gfci randomly trips, check to see if another one is on the same circuit.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yeah I understand how a GFCI circuit works...

There are different quality of GFCI devices, different GFCI chips and even the circuits can be single coil vs dual sensing coil depending on application. As we know all it takes is 4 to 6 ma (5 ma) delta for over 2 ms by typical design, this can be caused by any circuit of the downstream devices, including crappy low quality GFCIs. All are induction based. YMMV.

The common Fairchild chipset data sheet:

https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/149/RV4141A-117494.pdf

BTW that chip can use a single coil design by looping the test circuit back through the sensing coil instead of bypassing it, then the second coil is "not needed".

Another potential false trip item, if you look at the circuit the drive to the GFCI solenoid is via an SCR, SCRs of course latch once triggered and we want it to here! (Latched until all power is removed). This can also be a cause of problems if there is noise on the electrical line as it can trigger the SCR to trip (false positive), in the circuit there is a noise shunt in that part of the circuit to prevent this in theory but real life can be different based on quality and/or C3 can wrong sized or be failing. It is another one of those can't figure out why GFCI keeps tripping here but if I swap it to another line it does not fail.

Besides the fine electronics, as pointed out it is wasteful and beyond even that, test one and then find out which one(s) tripped...

what brands are you calling crappy?

I have not seen any crappy brands of GFCIs and i used to do a ton of service calls....

so now that youve provided the theory show me an actual study/test that shows the claim to be true... ive not seen any such test done in any video ever.... and im in a lot of electrical groups and watch a lot of videos...

Some people just have to fall thru a roof before they will believe someone who tells them don't step there, it is rotten. Since I have seen two gfci's on the same series circuit randomly tripping each other more than once, even though NOTHING is plugged into them, I know it happens. It also happened when I put one in each bedroom on the same circuit. Don't know why and don't care why. All I know is if someone tells me that a gfci randomly trips, check to see if another one is on the same circuit.

I'm not one to blindly believe something posted on the internet, especially from someone who makes a claim about all networks behaving a certain way when they dont with my own observation of numerous networks.

You provided a claim without any reference theory or tests and proof to backup said claim....

my kitchen GFCI would randomly trip. guess what. no other GFCI upstream of it. the culprit? the disposal....i didnt bother to look for an upstream GFCI..... guess i screwed up... oppsies

my backyard GFCI also randomly trips. its wired 2' below the panel. it was a bad GFCI.

just because it randomly trips doesnt mean theres a GFCI upstream of it. thats a bad way to troubleshoot something....

 

[SlappyWhite]

what brands are you calling crappy?

I have not seen any crappy brands of GFCIs and i used to do a ton of service calls....

so now that youve provided the theory show me an actual study/test that shows the claim to be true... ive not seen any such test done in any video ever.... and im in a lot of electrical groups and watch a lot of videos...

I'm not one to blindly believe something posted on the internet, especially from someone who makes a claim about all networks behaving a certain way when they dont with my own observation of numerous networks.

You provided a claim without any reference theory or tests and proof to backup said claim....

my kitchen GFCI would randomly trip. guess what. no other GFCI upstream of it. the culprit? the disposal....i didnt bother to look for an upstream GFCI..... guess i screwed up... oppsies

my backyard GFCI also randomly trips. its wired 2' below the panel. it was a bad GFCI.

just because it randomly trips doesnt mean theres a GFCI upstream of it. thats a bad way to troubleshoot something....

I really don't think you understand, or want to understand, maybe? Just because a cascaded GFCI MIGHT cause a problem (and might not) it does not mean it is the only possible cause of GFCI trips, YouTube or not. You seem to be trolling that is what I am or others are saying or based on the above what you actually think they are saying? I have not seen anywhere in this thread where anyone is saying that this is the only possible cause of trips or even random trips? Nor has anyone said this is the only troubleshooting to do but it is easy to eliminate and move on, just don't disregard it. It is brought as a possible cause to consider not THE ONLY POSSIBLE CAUSE lol!

BTW, we had one right here on Garage Journal late last year where the GFCI built into a power drain snake turned out to be the problem when plugged into a GFCI outlet. Sorry not on YouTube.... OP removed the built in GFCI and it fixed the issue (when plugged into a GFCI outlet). Real world example not scientific enough for you, lol.

****
Just like the thread about the unbalanced stove voltage (seems to be deleted now, can't find it????) a possible problem is not the only possibility and it was the line not the panel or service like some were saying was the only possibility! In that thread, it appeared some people might want to consider plumbing /s

 

[cannuck]

If the heater is on an extension cord, you might want to look at the plug and receptacle in the cord. We an external circuit where my highway tractor is parked and plugged in. When it snows, the joint at the end of the extension cord gets wet and trips the GFCI receptacle. ANY leakeage current (beyond 5mA which is sweet ****** all) will trip it. I am not a sparky, but I do work with 500 EEs and EETs.

 

[rob in nh]

Sorry, gave you guys wrong info, on this circuit its one gfci and 2 outlets.The plug that never is used is the one that is outside. It in an approved cover so it stays dry.

 

[sparky 1971]

Are the other two outlets on the circuit protected by the GFCI or just on the same circuit? There has been enough back and forth about things that may or not be irrelevant that I am lost. From what I gather, you can run a vacuum and a dehumidifier off of the GFCI, but not the tank heater, correct? If so, the only thing tripping the GFCI is the heater, and the heater has to be the problem. Have you plugged in the heater with everything else on the circuit unplugged? The only thing I can think of that isn't the heater itself is a combined imbalance between the heater and something else, but that's not very likely.

 

[rob in nh]

I tried the heater in every gfi I have in the barn and it tripped, I then tried it in my house on the gfi that the vacuum and dehumidifier are on. I unplugged everything and plug in the heater and it tripped it.

 

[sparky 1971]

Then that pretty much narrows it down to the heater. Sorry.