GFCI + Switch?

[Rstark18]

I was dry walling a wall in the garage which made me look at the outlets on that wall. both of them are not grounded. I figured the easiest way to deal with this is to replace the old outlets with GFCI.

Picture 1 shows the way it was originally wired.
Picture 2 shows the way I THOUGHT would work (basically replacing the old outlets with the exact same wiring config as the old).
Picture 3 show the final way I wired it.

In picture 2 the GFCI trips as soon as switch A is turned on. I THINK this is because there isn't a neutral on the load side of the outlet. Is that correct? If so what would be the proper way to connect the neutral or is there no proper way?

Picture1

Picture2

Picture3

 

[Speedy Petey]

So switch B is controlling receptacle D?

The last drawing (pic 3) will work that way. Just keep all your GFI wiring on LINE side. DO NOT use LOAD for anything.

 

[getpecked]

so you have no way of feeding the outlets without involving the switch? If that's the case I don't think you can use GFIs because every time you flip the switch and kill the power the GFI will trip.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The GFCI was tripping because you were pulling electricity from the LOAD side of the GFCI for the lights but the neutral for the lights was not connected to the LOAD side. This created an imbalance between LOAD side HOT and NEUTRAL and the GFCI tripped!

 

[Speedy Petey]

so you have no way of feeding the outlets without involving the switch? If that's the case I don't think you can use GFIs because every time you flip the switch and kill the power the GFI will trip.

HUH??? Says who?

 

[Alchymist]

Fixed your pic #2...

 

[getpecked]

HUH??? Says who?

so they don't trip if you kill power to them? For some reason i was thinking they do

 

[Alchymist]

so they don't trip if you kill power to them? For some reason i was thinking they do

If they did, you would be busy running around resetting them all when you recovered from a power failure! Slightest blip in your service and they would all be off.

 

[getpecked]

If they did, you would be busy running around resetting them all when you recovered from a power failure! Slightest blip in your service and they would all be off.

yeah you're right...damnit. lol. I just went and flipped the breaker on and off for my outside GFIs and they did not trip.

 

[Rstark18]

So switch B is controlling receptacle D?

The last drawing (pic 3) will work that way. Just keep all your GFI wiring on LINE side. DO NOT use LOAD for anything.

Yes B is the on off switch for D. A is for the lights and C is always on.

The GFCI was tripping because you were pulling electricity from the LOAD side of the GFCI for the lights but the neutral for the lights was not connected to the LOAD side. This created an imbalance between LOAD side HOT and NEUTRAL and the GFCI tripped!

That is what I thought and the reason I finally used plan 3.

Fixed your pic #2...

I wasn't sure if that was proper so I went with plan 3 which I knew was "normal". I just wasn't sure about using the LOAD neutral back to the neutral for the lights if this would somehow defeat the purpose of using the GFCI as a replacement for a true ground.

 

[Alchymist]

I wasn't sure if that was proper so I went with plan 3 which I knew was "normal". I just wasn't sure about using the LOAD neutral back to the neutral for the lights if this would somehow defeat the purpose of using the GFCI as a replacement for a true ground.

The GFI ahead of the lights as in the amended drawing will provide some protection to the light circuit also. The GFI works by sensing the difference in currents between the line and neutral at the load side; when the difference exceeds a few milliamps, it trips. Thus if someone were to touch any hot point in the light circuit, and any current would be conducted to ground, where ever that ground comes from it would trip the GFI. For this reason the GFI can help protect even two wire circuits where no ground is present in the wiring. This is helpful in older construction where two wire circuits without a third wire ground was present, and the NEC even makes provisions for doing so.

 

[Rstark18]

The GFI ahead of the lights as in the amended drawing will provide some protection to the light circuit also. The GFI works by sensing the difference in currents between the line and neutral at the load side; when the difference exceeds a few milliamps, it trips. Thus if someone were to touch any hot point in the light circuit, and any current would be conducted to ground, where ever that ground comes from it would trip the GFI. For this reason the GFI can help protect even two wire circuits where no ground is present in the wiring. This is helpful in older construction where two wire circuits without a third wire ground was present, and the NEC even makes provisions for doing so.

That is the reason I replaced the old outlets with the GFCI. But you make a great point about having protection to the lights. Would it be smart to take it apart and rewire the lights to the LOAD side of the GFCI? The wiring is pretty tight on the older existing wire and it takes a bit of effort to make sure all the wire is capped properly in that tight box.

 

[Rstark18]

Just keep all your GFI wiring on LINE side. DO NOT use LOAD for anything.

Why not use the LOAD for anything? Do you see something that would compromise the functionality of the GFCI?

 

[Speedy Petey]

Why not use the LOAD for anything? Do you see something that would compromise the functionality of the GFCI?

Yes, because as Wylie said, you connected to the LOAD hot to feed the switch. THAT is why the GFI tripped.
You'd have to keep both the hot and neutral for the switch leg on the LOAD, but why bother? They don't need to be protected.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

so they don't trip if you kill power to them? For some reason i was thinking they do

U may be thinking of something similar: some brands of GFCIs can not be reset when they don't have power.

 

[Rstark18]

U may be thinking of something similar: some brands of GFCIs are not resettable when they don't have power.

The ones I have are not resettable without power but they do not trip without power.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yes, because as Wylie said, you connected to the LOAD hot to feed the switch. THAT is why the GFI tripped.
You'd have to keep both the hot and neutral for the switch leg on the LOAD, but why bother? They don't need to be protected.

uggg... How many different ways can the same thing be said?