GFI required ?

[Junkman]

The home was built in 1985, and the garage outlets are not GFI protected. Will this need to be upgraded when the home is sold? i.e. do home inspectors point this out, and do buyers usually ask to have this upgraded? What is your experience? What other areas of the home are required to have GFI', other than the bathrooms and kitchen outlets? Are refrigerators grandfathered on this requirement? My thinking is that if these upgrades will be required when we sell the home, might as well get them out of the way now, rather than later. Thanks Junk

 

[EOC_Jason]

Depends on how you are selling the house. If it's "as-is" then the buyers will know (if they get it inspected) and maybe that added to whatever other deficiencies just gives them bargaining power for a lower price.

However, with that being said... Upgrading the few circuits in the garage, kitchen, and bath would probably be less than $50....

AFAIK, as long as the refrigerator is on its own dedicated circuit it does not need to be on a GFCI... Just the plugs on the counter-tops.

 

[AntonLargiader]

Everything has to meet the code under which it was built. If you have done electrical work it has to meet the code that was in effect at the time, but the original wiring is compliant provided it meets the 1985 code.

That said, some GFCI receptacles or CAFI breakers are an easy way to add modern protection to the existing wiring at minimal cost. And you have the right idea; if you're going to do it, do it now so you reap the benefit of it while you're there.

 

[Showkey]

Sold circa 1987 home and this topic came up by the buyer's inspection. Mine was with the kitchen. The kitchen had new counter cabinets flooring etc but not other wall or ceiling work. So it was grandfathered in not having GFCI in the kitchen. Had the walls been moved causing electrical work then they would been updated.

It really has nothing to do with "as is sale". It about health and safety that the inspectors mention, but the code is in the sellers favor if they choose to not upgrade. I chose not to upgrade and buyer said fine. As far as the costs if volunteer to fix it you maybe obligated to hirer a pro to do a simple job that is not longer in the $50 range.

It often comes up when they have nothing else to talk about.

 

[sberry]

A couple gfci cant hurt.

 

[exranger06]

What other areas of the home are required to have GFI', other than the bathrooms and kitchen outlets? Are refrigerators grandfathered on this requirement?

In the kitchen, all countertop outlets need to be GFCI. Also, all outlets within 6' of the sink need to be GFCI. All other kitchen outlets do not need to be GFCI. All bathroom outlets need to be GFCI, all outdoor outlets need to be GFCI (as well as weather resistant), all outlets in laundry areas need to be GFCI, all outlets in garages and unfinished basements need to be GFCI, INCLUDING outlets for refrigerators.

 

[alien]

If it was to code when built you shouldn't need to upgrade to current code. With that being said a home inspector will probably make note of it and the buyer or bank "may" ask/demand they be brought up to code. I consider it a bargaining chip? If you fix it now the inspector will want to find other "issues" that need to be addressed. IMHO I would leave it as it wouldn't take much to fix if asked?

 

[Norcal]

A home inspector cannot require anything, as long as the 1985 building met the codes in effect at the time it was built it's fine, but if for example, receptacles were replaced or other changes were made then a GFCI would be required, the 1984 NEC only required GFCI's for bathrooms, garages, & receptacles outdoors where there was grade level access, so a balcony would not require it, the house could have been under the 1978, or 1981 NEC also, the garage requirement was new in the 1981 NEC, the kitchen GFCI requirement came out in the 1987 NEC (6' from sink then).

 

[kd3pc]

INCLUDING outlets for refrigerators.

I believe current code (2014) says, IF the only device on the home run is the fridge outlet, and that outlet is directly behind (accessible only if the fridge is moved out, then it is an exception.

Double check with the AHJ for the current code they enforce.

The GFCI requirements for refrigerators are governed primarily under NEC Article 210.8 and 210.52. Keep in mind the difference between dwelling unit and kitchen. IE, a fridge in the kitchen is handled differently than a fridge elsewhere in the dwelling.

All that being said...in new construction it is a simple matter of a few bucks for the device. In renovation, it is a few bucks for the device. Home inspections - someone should make sure the dwelling is safe.

bests

 

[AntonLargiader]

I believe current code (2014) says, IF the only device on the home run is the fridge outlet, it is an exception.

Double check with the AHJ for the current code they enforce.

I think 2011 did away with all of the GFCI exemptions in garages and basements. Mike Holt wrote about this at the time.

 

[exranger06]

In my house, I'm replacing every switch and outlet in the whole house for several reasons: switching to Decora style switches/outlets, changing the ugly almond color to white, converting all the backstabbed devices to side-wire, checking for any sketchy work the electrician did (I found a bunch of hackery already). While I'm replacing everything, I'm taking the opportunity to bring everything up to the latest code, even if I don't have to. That means adding GFCI where it's now required where it wasn't before, all outlets are now tamper resistant, adding grounding pigtails to switches, etc. I don't plan on selling the house in the foreseeable future, but I feel better knowing everything is updated.

 

[Captain Spaulding]

Another thought: GFCI outlets are so common that a bathroom or kitchen without them looks dated much like houses years ago with two prong outlets or the little phone junction boxes on the baseboards looked dated. GFCI outlets might be a very cheap upgrade to subconsciously influence the prospective buyer's mental image of the home. Sort of like a coat of paint.

 

[ptgarcia]

Here in CA, code doesn't require much when selling a home. About the only thing that must be installed are smoke detectors and CO detectors (1 on each floor), and the water heater must be earthquake strapped. Code violations, not permitted additions or structures, etc. usually only affect a sale if the buyer's lender takes exception to them. Home inspectors can note deficiencies and point them out to the buyer, and the buyer can ask the seller to address them, but the seller doesn't have to do anything.

I purchased and moved into my current home 2 years ago from a divorcee. It was in need of a ton of work (still needs plenty of work) and the inspector pointed out several things needing attention, but we were warned by the selling agent the owner had no money and couldn't afford to fix anything. The only thing we had her do was pay for a roof inspection after I noticed evidence of a prior leak. Tying into this thread: when we moved in, there wasn't a single GFCI protected outlet in or outside the entire house.

 

[reader2580]

I would add them before selling. A buyer might insist they want them and that an electrician install them. You don't want to lose a buyer over something this simple.

In some areas the market is so hot that sellers are in control and can easily say no to buyers. A $250,000 house in south Minneapolis, MN will sell in a day or less as long as it is not a wreck.

 

[theoldwizard1]

A couple gfci cant hurt.

CONCUR !

A home inspector would probably zing you on it, even though it is only required to meet the code at the time of the build.

 

[6768rogues]

It is a low cost upgrade, so I would do it. A home inspector will probably note it and then the buyer will look at it as a way to get a lower price. Once it is on the record, if a licensed electrician is required the cost will be higher (not required here). Do it yourself now, have the benefit of greater safety, and put the item to rest.

 

[matt_i]

Personally I wouldn't lift a finger until you have the buyers' inspector's report. You can do all sorts of pre-emptive work and still end up with 2 pages of "issues". Then again there are those who show up, look around for 5 minutes and leave. I have dealt with both.

The report isn't a requirement either, its just designed to spur a negotiation. But, most people have zero technical knowledge and will swallow the hook, line and sinker as the highest form of truth.

 

[myredracer]

I don't think it's is as easy as dropping in a new GFCI receptacle. If you have split circuits at the kitchen circuits you can't share the neutral plus kitchen circuits need to be combo AFCI/GFCI and tamper-resistant type. GCCI/AFCI breakers are not cheap. If you do change it, it would need to fully comply with the lastest EC edition. It's a potential can of worms best left alone if you ask me.

Nobody can force a homeowner to upgrade to the latest code, whether it's electrical, plumbing, gas or building code. I would just gloss over it and let a new owner decide what they want to do and if they squawk about it, too bad and wait for another buyer. If a buyer is looking at older homes, they need to learn that they will find this situation in any house they look at.

My elderly mom used to own a house that was built with aluminum wiring. A PO had upgraded with Cu/Al devices to code and it was 100% safe. When it came time to renew her insurance policy, the insurer said they would not renew it unless she replaced all of the aluminum. I called the electrical inspector who confirmed that there was no such requirement to upgrade to copper to the latest code. Changed insurance companies, problem went away. Eventually sold the house and it never even came up.

 

[AntonLargiader]

I don't think it's is as easy as dropping in a new GFCI receptacle. If you have split circuits at the kitchen circuits you can't share the neutral plus kitchen circuits need to be combo AFCI/GFCI and tamper-resistant type. GCCI/AFCI breakers are not cheap. If you do change it, it would need to fully comply with the lastest EC edition.

That is totally state dependent. Many states are not on the latest NEC and even when they are some exemptions exist. Here in VA we only have AFCI required in bedrooms, even though we are on a code cycle that requires them elsewhere.

CAFI breakers are about $40 for Homeline; don't know about the panel the OP has though. Maybe not available.

Code aside, it's worth remembering that the reason for all of this is safety. Ground fault protection (for people) and arc fault protection (for structures and the people in them) are good things that help protect us from the inherent dangers of electricity. Don't view them as mere compliance issues.

 

[reader2580]

I don't think it's is as easy as dropping in a new GFCI receptacle. If you have split circuits at the kitchen circuits you can't share the neutral plus kitchen circuits need to be combo AFCI/GFCI and tamper-resistant type. GCCI/AFCI breakers are not cheap. If you do change it, it would need to fully comply with the lastest EC edition. It's a potential can of worms best left alone if you ask me.

This isn't about bringing a kitchen fully up to the latest NEC. A home inspector will almost certainly note the lack of GFCI protection and the buyers could request an upgrade. The seller is under no obligation to do so, but could also lose the sale. A home inspector may be unlikely to note lack of AFCI breakers and not all areas are on 2014 NEC that requires AFCI in kitchens.

You can use GFCI receptacles with an AFCI breaker. (I have this in my kitchen.) Siemens now makes a combo AFCI/GFCI breaker that costs $7 more than an AFCI breaker and is $5 less than a GFCI breaker.

 

[nh_yota]

Home inspectors like to make up code rules as they go along. No, you don't need to upgrade to a GFCI but they are so cheap you might as well install them just to avoid future hassle.

 

[prostreetamx]

My previous house was built in 1952. GFCI's were not even thought of then. I remodeled the kitchen which did include all new wiring in different locations so I went ahead and went with the newest code at the time (no permit). I also upgraded the main panel and other things to modernize the wiring. That house had only a very small grounding conductor ran to each box which was also replaced with the proper grounding so I could use 3 prong receptacles. When I sold the house it sold in 4 days because inside it looked like a more modern house with decora switches and GFCI devices. I also added one in the bath. Pretty cheap if you can sort out the wiring in the kitchen. When we wired tract homes, we made a point of putting the home run behind the refrigerator so we could install the GFCI device in the next plug box on the circuit. You do not want to GFCI the refer if possible. We never put it on a dedicated circuit since they were tract homes and a separate home run was not required and would cost more to run.

 

[Gerry347]

I would add them before selling. A buyer might insist they want them and that an electrician install them. You don't want to lose a buyer over something this simple.

This is great advice... I ran into this issue last year when we sold our house. The buyers home inspector dinged us for not having them in the kitchen and then the buyer insisted they be replaced and installed by a licensed electrician. I got lucky and a friend of a friend knew a licensed electrician who was willing to let me do the work and then he came in and double checked everything and then signed off on my work. Had I known this could have been an issue I would have replaced the outlets before hand.

 

[Junkman]

Here is some additional information. I am upgrading almost all the switches and receptacles to the modern Decora units on the first floor. I don't want to get into doing the second floor, unless absolutely necessary. All the new receptacles are tamper resistant. All the receptacles in the kitchen are on a GFI breaker, but none are tamper resistant. All the outside receptacles are on GFI breakers. Tonight I was working on finishing up the dining room, which has 3 receptacles on each wall times 2, equals 6, plus one more on a third wall, for what I thought was a total of 7. Then my wife told me that the microwave, and the receptacle on the common wall with the dining room, wasn't working. I had turned off the breaker that was marked for the dining room. I did a quick count, and realized that there are 9 receptacles on that one 20 amp breaker. The entire home is wired with 12 gauge wire. The microwave is mounted inside a cabinet, and the plug is not accessible without first removing the microwave. It is highly unlikely that all of these receptacles would be used at once, and we have never had a problem with the breaker tripping. My question is, is there a maximum number of receptacles that are allowed on one circuit? Does the microwave need to be changed out to a GFI receptacle? I am not certain if I can split up these 9 receptacles, since I don't know how they were originally run. I will be checking into this if necessary, by trying to locate the wires in the cellar. If necessary, I can put them all on a GFI breaker if the number of receptacles isn't a problem.
The garage was never on a GFI breaker, and I will make that change this week. I can also change out the bedrooms if this is a safety concern, but do I need to use the arc fault/GFI or can I use just the arc fault breakers for the bedrooms? All the bathrooms have GFI breakers installed from day one. The breaker panel is a Square D QO.

 

[Norcal]

A "upgrade" to AFCI may be required depending on the code in effect now also.

 

[AntonLargiader]

...but do I need to use the arc fault/GFI or can I use just the arc fault breakers for the bedrooms?

From what I've seen, CAFI is less expensive than AFCI alone when you're buying breakers. It's kind of odd how the requirements propagate in the code cycles, but I think the writing is on the wall and you might as well go CAFI. It's not like there's a reason to avoid GFCI in the BR. Kids play in all rooms of a house, in my experience.

By the same token, why avoid it at the microwave? If my microwave shorts something internally and energizes the chassis, I want something to trip and tell me about the problem.

The only reason I can think of to go AFCI-only at the breaker is so you can use GFCI receps to limit the scope and/or inconvenience of a nuisance trip.

 

[exranger06]

. My question is, is there a maximum number of receptacles that are allowed on one circuit?

No, there's no maximum number of receptacles allowed.

Does the microwave need to be changed out to a GFI receptacle?

No.

The garage was never on a GFI breaker, and I will make that change this week. I can also change out the bedrooms if this is a safety concern, but do I need to use the arc fault/GFI or can I use just the arc fault breakers for the bedrooms?

Bedrooms are not required to be GFCI protected, only AFCI.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Go by whatever the code was when house was built,or most recent remodel (open walls)

 

[AntonLargiader]

Go by whatever the code was when house was built,or most recent remodel (open walls)

He's trying to improve what he has. Sticking to obsolete code is kind of missing the point.

 

[prostreetamx]

There is indeed a code on the number of receptacles on a circuit, at least in kitchens. That code changed around 1990 so doesn't affect the original question but current code only allows 4 devices on any circuit that serves countertops. Kitchen circuits also are not allowed to be shared anywhere else in current code. Bath circuits have also changed over the years and now can not be used for other areas. You used to be able to combine a garage GFCI and even outdoor plugs with the bath circuit but now the bath must be separate, but you can share it with multiple baths.

 

[6768rogues]

You can argue all day about whether it is required or optional. Usually it is optional if not required when built or reconfigured. None of that makes any difference if it is noted in a report and the potential buyer thinks it is a big deal. Take a hard line that it is not required, don't give an inch, and watch your potential buyer walk away or expect the item to be resolved at your expense by the most expensive electrician their representative can find. Buyers are not required to understand code requirements.

 

[Showkey]

^^^^^^^^^^^^and sellers are not required to bring the house to the current code, plus these days the buyers are standing in line with over asking price offers ..........many in cash..........so you might consider all the information in the market place before "remodeling" and "upgrading" the entire house.

A then there is never ever a consensus in the electrical section


The same discussions come up when the home inspector says there is 1-5 years left on the roof, AC or Heat, water heater or any other major appliance. Buyer will ask for them to replaced, if their working in this market the answer is no way. A strong seller agent will control this inspection nonsense to health, safety or structure. Safety is NOT code upgrades ! Unfortunately health does include the four letter word .....mold. Which is another whole can of worms. The other popular health inspection key word.......radon, another can of worms.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I don't think it's is as easy as dropping in a new GFCI receptacle. If you have split circuits at the kitchen circuits you can't share the neutral plus kitchen circuits need to be combo AFCI/GFCI and tamper-resistant type. GCCI/AFCI breakers are not cheap. If you do change it, it would need to fully comply with the lastest EC edition. It's a potential can of worms best left alone if you ask me.

Nobody can force a homeowner to upgrade to the latest code, whether it's electrical, plumbing, gas or building code. I would just gloss over it and let a new owner decide what they want to do and if they squawk about it, too bad and wait for another buyer. If a buyer is looking at older homes, they need to learn that they will find this situation in any house they look at.

My elderly mom used to own a house that was built with aluminum wiring. A PO had upgraded with Cu/Al devices to code and it was 100% safe. When it came time to renew her insurance policy, the insurer said they would not renew it unless she replaced all of the aluminum. I called the electrical inspector who confirmed that there was no such requirement to upgrade to copper to the latest code. Changed insurance companies, problem went away. Eventually sold the house and it never even came up.

U CAN have a shared neutral on the line side of a receptacle style GFCI.

U cannot have a shared neutral on the load side of a receptacle style GFCI.

If a shared neutral on the load side of a GFCI is required, then one would need a double pole GFCI breaker...

 

[reader2580]

^^^^^^^^^^^^and sellers are not required to bring the house to the current code, plus these days the buyers are standing in line with over asking price offers ..........many in cash..........so you might consider all the information in the market place before "remodeling" and "upgrading" the entire house.

In some markets houses are selling quickly, but by no means in all markets.

My house is 20 to 25 miles north of the City of Minneapolis. I would probably be lucky to sell my house for what I paid for it in 2014. It would also probably take me a month or two to sell. However, if my house was in south Minneapolis it would likely be sold by the end of the first day with multiple offers. It would also be worth $50,000 more simply due to location.

 

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Just get some little plastic rectangles, carefully print "test" and "reset" on them. A little superglue. Done!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Just get some little plastic rectangles, carefully print "test" and "reset" on them. A little superglue. Done!

#sarcasm?

I sure hope as what u suggest is more work than simply putting in a GFCI...

 

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

#sarcasm?

I sure hope as what u suggest is more work than simply putting in a GFCI...

I know, sarcasm. I replaced GFCI's around my house, it was amazingly easy.

 

[MushCreek]

When we sold our FL home, we were told that the outlets would need to be upgraded to GFI. The realtor is a friend of ours, and wouldn't have said it if it weren't so. She added that I could install them myself pre-inspection, but if I waited until after the inspection, they would HAVE to be installed by a licensed electrician. It's a FL thing, but I also had to upgrade the garage door to be hurricane 'proof', and have the necessary safety equipment. Being grandfathered in didn't mean a thing on those two items. I guess we could have sold as-is, but at the time, FL was a tough market, and we wanted to put our best foot forward.

 

[acer66]

Another thought: GFCI outlets are so common that a bathroom or kitchen without them looks dated much like houses years ago with two prong outlets or the little phone junction boxes on the baseboards looked dated. GFCI outlets might be a very cheap upgrade to subconsciously influence the prospective buyer's mental image of the home. Sort of like a coat of paint.

Good point.

 

[Junkman]

I have seen a lot of GFIC receptacles on eBay that are selling for under $10 each, and are claimed to be UL listed, made in China. Most that I have seen, have no recognizable branding on them, such as Lutron, Leviton, Hubbell, etc.. What is your opinion on using these "no name" products?