Gluing Zamok?

[skeer]

So the fwd/rev housing on this Atlas lathe has a couple broken spots.
Looking for ideas on how to reattach them.

The one larger piece I’m thinking likely the only way would be a combination epoxy and a thin metal brace on the outside with at least 4 pins or countersunk screws to give it some ridgitity.

 

[vtcat]

Tig weld, machine a new one or look for used part

 

[skeer]

Well, machining and buying a new one ain't gonna happen. I might have to look for a machine shop for the tig.

 

[RoninB4]

The alignment of that gear may/may not be important, don't now what it drives. Also don't know if ZAMAK (zinc, aluminum, magnesium, copper mix) can be TiG welded or not for structural integrity. I used to do TiG welding to stamping die components but never fully trusted the weld as I'm not a very good welder. I'd prefer to first use a mechanical lock (because I'm a poor welder) of some sort (dowel pins and fasteners) that are stronger (steel) than a zinc-die-cast filler rod. This will also help prevent anything changing if/when it can be welded. Not a big fan of zinc for structural components, this is one reason why. Do you have a milling machine to use? It would certainly help. Also wouldn't count on any type of glue/epoxy to hold up in this application. I've seen JB Weld do some impressive jobs but I hate to recommend it instead a proper repair. Even a thin layer between the broken sections will change the location/alignment of the gear. Will it make a difference? Can't say without seeing it.

 

[skeer]

Agreed, except about the tag welding just because I know really nothing about it specifically.
But yeah I was thinking along the same lines as you.. mechanical/physical support. Epoxy, JB, a support plate and pins or bolts. This is the gear case for the Atlas lathe. It controls the forward and reverse movement of the tool platform.
Which tbh I won’t be using for a while. There are formed oil holes from the broken piece all the way into the races. I’m sure those were part of the mold though and not drilled after the fact. I’ll likely try to drill some tiny paths parallel to those for steel pins but I’m not holding my breath that it’ll work just due to my skills.

 

[WILD-BILL]

Every time I've tried to tig anything that had Zinc in it it fouled the tungsten almost instantly.

 

[shoot summ]

There is one on ebay for $35, it's a little damaged, but much better than one you have.

 

[RaisedByWolves]

The alignment of that gear may/may not be important, don't now what it drives. Also don't know if ZAMAK (zinc, aluminum, magnesium, copper mix) can be TiG welded or not for structural integrity. I used to do TiG welding to stamping die components but never fully trusted the weld as I'm not a very good welder. I'd prefer to first use a mechanical lock (because I'm a poor welder) of some sort (dowel pins and fasteners) that are stronger (steel) than a zinc-die-cast filler rod. This will also help prevent anything changing if/when it can be welded. Not a big fan of zinc for structural components, this is one reason why. Do you have a milling machine to use? It would certainly help. Also wouldn't count on any type of glue/epoxy to hold up in this application. I've seen JB Weld do some impressive jobs but I hate to recommend it instead a proper repair. Even a thin layer between the broken sections will change the location/alignment of the gear. Will it make a difference? Can't say without seeing it.

BTDT on this type of machine.

Pin and epoxy (Devcon or Nu-Metal) would be a good fix for many similar breaks, but this one takes gear train loading and would fail.

The gear mesh and alignment on these was never great even from the factory, good enough to do the job but it is an ultra low speed situation.

OP, PM me if the Ebay part does not work out. I might be able to fix that.

 

[skeer]

So found a link on diy electroplating with copper, granted soldi g this gear housing still likely wouldn’t be a strong enough fix but linking it here because it’s neat.

High Quality (and Safe) Copper Plating

High Quality (and Safe) Copper Plating: There are a few copper electroplating methods on here, but they are either dangerous, provide very low quality results, or cost an arm and a leg. Your plated object should be a brilliant, shiny red, not blackened, and your pocket book shouldn't be …

www.instructables.com

 

[skeer]

So I’m probably going to end up trying the epoxy + backing plate idea first. Still tossing around the idea of pins but I’m not sure I have the skills to drill laterally into the walls of this housing.

 

[RaisedByWolves]

So I’m probably going to end up trying the epoxy + backing plate idea first. Still tossing around the idea of pins but I’m not sure I have the skills to drill laterally into the walls of this housing.

The pins are tricky. I don't go for a press or even a slide fit, but a loose fit, then fill the holes with the epoxy, insert the pins and assemble/clamp.

I do think a threaded backing plate with flush flathead screws would be best for that part and it looks like you have lots of room to fit it in there. You're probably going to have to deal with the fact that many of the walls of that part are tapered to let it release from the casting die, that's not a huge hurdle, but it needs to be planned out accordingly.

 

[RoninB4]

I’m not sure I have the skills to drill laterally into the walls of this housing.

-If you're uncertain about the skill level for pinning this then you probably don't (not meant in a demeaning/insulting way) have it. You also haven't replied to whether you have a milling machine for this or not. If not, the backing plate is probably a better approach. Wouldn't trust only using epoxy alone that thin after it's all been squeezed out of the seam. Whatever approach you decide to do the clamping is critical to duplicate factory alignment. Just align/mate the two halves together the way they broke, should only fit one way. Good luck.

 

[Zeke]

There are parted out units FS all the time. Much easier, just keep the original (I don't know why).

 

[skeer]

-If you're uncertain about the skill level for pinning this then you probably don't (not meant in a demeaning/insulting way) have it. You also haven't replied to whether you have a milling machine for this or not. If not, the backing plate is probably a better approach. Wouldn't trust only using epoxy alone that thin after it's all been squeezed out of the seam. Whatever approach you decide to do the clamping is critical to duplicate factory alignment. Just align/mate the two halves together the way they broke, should only fit one way. Good luck.

Yea sorry, no milling machine nor access to one. And no def not going to try relying only upon an adhesive.
The backing plate is going to be about the best I can do.

 

[skeer]

-If you're uncertain about the skill level for pinning this then you probably don't (not meant in a demeaning/insulting way) have it. You also haven't replied to whether you have a milling machine for this or not. If not, the backing plate is probably a better approach. Wouldn't trust only using epoxy alone that thin after it's all been squeezed out of the seam. Whatever approach you decide to do the clamping is critical to duplicate factory alignment. Just align/mate the two halves together the way they broke, should only fit one way. Good luck.

Oh def not taking that negatively. I’m familiar enough with pinning.. albeit mostly wood. But never anything this small.
I can see having to dremel a few flat spots in the break so a bit could get a bite. But then it’d be JBing the small voids..sanding, forming, etc.

Now if I a backing plate doesn’t work and I can source another for cheap. Then I’ll certainly giving pinning a shot with the original.

Adhesive question for you guys.. thoughts on JB the seam or the copper plating+soldering? The latter is a totally a novel idea but so have everything for the copper sulfate solution.
Just a thought.

 

[RoninB4]

Oh def not taking that negatively. I’m familiar enough with pinning.. albeit mostly wood. But never anything this small.
I can see having to dremel a few flat spots in the break so a bit could get a bite. But then it’d be JBing the small voids..sanding, forming, etc.

Now if I a backing plate doesn’t work and I can source another for cheap. Then I’ll certainly giving pinning a shot with the original.

Adhesive question for you guys.. thoughts on JB the seam or the copper plating+soldering? The latter is a totally a novel idea but so have everything for the copper sulfate solution.
Just a thought.

-Pinning would not be done one half part at a time, almost a guarantee the pins won't align properly. Spring pins (split pins) also do not guarantee proper alignment. By design, a spring/split pin changes to fit the hole. That change can mean the alignment axis also changes. Even with a Bridgeport mill, pinning is not guaranteed when done half a part at a time, pinning as-assembled (in-situ) is required. With a drill press you would have to completely finish one hole at a time, hoping the halves didn't shift during machining/clamping. It's not as easy to get good results as some people think it is.

-This part is just my opinion. Any type of epoxy is likely to be too thin a layer between the parts to do any real good. Any type of soldering is likely to not stick to the part. Most soldering compounds are not very strong anyway. "Silver solder" is much stronger but I wouldn't expect it to bond/stick either. Repairs like this call for brazing but the part isn't steel so it would not likely stick either. For any process that require elevated temperatures, there's even a good chance the base metal (the part) itself will simply melt into an unusable puddle. Zinc die-casting (ZAMAK, pot metal) is terrific for lots of applications but it's usually horrible-to-impossible for repair jobs like this.

Backing plates (maybe two) with fasteners are probably your best shot. A used part on E(vil) Bay is not a bad idea for back-up replacement if it's not too expensive. Never really know how long a repair like this will last. Confine clearance holes (the ones not tapped for threads) should be kept to a bare minimum (+ .003-.005) for the fastener to go through in order to limit movement while under machine stress loading.

-Other opinions are openly courted. I'm not the last word on anything.

 

[alfadan]

Gear mesh and shaft alignment need to be considered if you're planning to remove any material.
As a side comment, and not digging on you at all, but...zamak...sheesh wtf people!

 

[Snip's]

Maybe make it better than OEM...
https://www.xometry.com/capabilities/3d-printing-service/direct-metal-laser-sintering/

 

[kaymccampbell]

Oops. What I was proposing is out of production.

 

[RoninB4]

Oops. What I was proposing is out of production.

-Would like to hear it anyway.

 

[RoninB4]

As a side comment, and not digging on you at all, but...zamak...sheesh wtf people!

-This material was not only cost effective for lower end components/machinery but also held detail reasonably well. Look no further than carburetors, espresso coffee makers, transmission housings (80's to 90's), and a multitude of other products out there. As a former tool maker I don't like the material either but have to admit it served a purpose. I try not to own anything that uses a zinc die-cast component or accept that I'll have to make the component from another material when it breaks.

 

[skeer]

-This part is just my opinion. Any type of epoxy is likely to be too thin a layer between the parts to do any real good. Any type of soldering is likely to not stick to the part. Most soldering compounds are not very strong anyway. "Silver solder" is much stronger but I wouldn't expect it to bond/stick either. Repairs like this call for brazing but the part isn't steel so it would not likely stick either. For any process that require elevated temperatures, there's even a good chance the base metal (the part) itself will simply melt into an unusable puddle. Zinc die-casting (ZAMAK, pot metal) is terrific for lots of applications but it's usually horrible-to-impossible for repair jobs like this.

Yeah if I try to solder it'll only be after the copper plating.. but I hear you

In the past I've used pins, not spring, but a shortened solid rod along with some epoxy into a slight larger hole.

Still the backing plates is my No.1 plan of attack.

 

[skeer]

Im reading how Malloy brazing rods are good for this stuff, super low melting point around 280*F. Apparently pricey though.

 

[RoninB4]

Im reading how Malloy brazing rods are good for this stuff, super low melting point around 280*F. Apparently pricey though.

-I used to attend the International Machine Tool Show (IMTS) in Chicago off/on for several years. One year a vendor was hawking filler rods he used in a demo to braze aluminum. I never had much faith in these things (have been around for decades) and asked the pipe fitter (millwright) and sheet metal (tin knocker) guys at work the next day. They were both older, union certified and very good at all types of welding so I trusted their opinion. They both informed me that they both had tried various makes over the years out of professional curiosity and got marginal results at best. I asked whether they thought zinc die-cast could be a candidate. They both expressed doubts but hadn't actually attempted it. Thier reasoning was that if marginal results were obtained on good aluminum bar stock then why would pot metal (of unknown composition) be better? I told them I'd seen the demo at the show where he brazed two soda cans together. The pipe fitter said he wasn't too sure how often he'd need to braze a soda can with a leak. Seems a costly experiment for iffy results. Maybe someone else that's used them could chime in. I'm still hoping for better results than I've seen.

 

[RaisedByWolves]

-Pinning would not be done one half part at a time, almost a guarantee the pins won't align properly. Spring pins (split pins) also do not guarantee proper alignment. By design, a spring/split pin changes to fit the hole. That change can mean the alignment axis also changes. Even with a Bridgeport mill, pinning is not guaranteed when done half a part at a time, pinning as-assembled (in-situ) is required. With a drill press you would have to completely finish one hole at a time, hoping the halves didn't shift during machining/clamping. It's not as easy to get good results as some people think it is.

-This part is just my opinion. Any type of epoxy is likely to be too thin a layer between the parts to do any real good. Any type of soldering is likely to not stick to the part. Most soldering compounds are not very strong anyway. "Silver solder" is much stronger but I wouldn't expect it to bond/stick either. Repairs like this call for brazing but the part isn't steel so it would not likely stick either. For any process that require elevated temperatures, there's even a good chance the base metal (the part) itself will simply melt into an unusable puddle. Zinc die-casting (ZAMAK, pot metal) is terrific for lots of applications but it's usually horrible-to-impossible for repair jobs like this.

Backing plates (maybe two) with fasteners are probably your best shot. A used part on E(vil) Bay is not a bad idea for back-up replacement if it's not too expensive. Never really know how long a repair like this will last. Confine clearance holes (the ones not tapped for threads) should be kept to a bare minimum (+ .003-.005) for the fastener to go through in order to limit movement while under machine stress loading.

-Other opinions are openly courted. I'm not the last word on anything.

I’ve brazed cast iron and will be doing it again on the base to me Steinel mill. I got it cheap as the base was broke, and while it stands and is stable as is, I’m going to need to sell it some day so it needs fixed.

Copper plating and soldering gives me the willies.

 

[RoninB4]

I’ve brazed cast iron and will be doing it again on the base to me Steinel mill. I got it cheap as the base was broke, and while it stands and is stable as is, I’m going to need to sell it some day so it needs fixed.

Copper plating and soldering gives me the willies.

-I've brazed a fair bit of CI myself, I like/choose brazing and silver soldering when possible/appropriate. High heat seems a big risk of a melted puddle for the OP's zinc die cast part doncha think?

On a different note- Would enjoy seeing the Steinel photos, don't see those very often anymore.

 

[FredWanaker]

TIG / Heliarc it. Anything you do will contaminate it for tigging. Or find a good one, or take it to a foundry and have them pour a new one.

maybe these might be what you have, I don't know but it only took 3 or 4 minutes to find them.

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[RoninB4]

TIG / Heliarc it. Anything you do will contaminate it for tigging. Or find a good one, or take it to a foundry and have them pour a new one.

-Most of my TiG experience was from over 20 years ago and on tool steel and ferrous alloys so I've not had enough experience to make a good weld on aluminum. My question is for the voice of experience like yours may be. Does a cast aluminum/zinc base metal present the same difficulties that cast ferrous materials sometimes present? Lots of welder have reported contamination, oozing of oils, etc. present in some ferrous castings that can make arc/TiG welding difficult. Your opinion/experience sir?

 

[FredWanaker]

personally I would look for a replacement. But in answer to your question, the part looks like it has been in the weather. It may have internal changes in the metal caused by electrolysis. Zinc fumes make welders really sick so if they think there is zinc in it, they won't touch it. Other than that, Tigging/Heliarc uses an inert gas to keep O2 away from the weld. Any contaminant will affect the strength of a weld. I usually find welders who do aerospace work. Some of the folks I use can weld a thin metal business card to a metal business card without warping it, in fact it used to be one of the tests a welding shop here threw at people who wanted a job there.

 

[RoninB4]

Some of the folks I use can weld a thin metal business card to a metal business card without warping it, in fact it used to be one of the tests a welding shop here threw at people who wanted a job there.

-Thank you for the reply, was hoping you were a welder with experience for an in depth answer. Yes I've seen several "tests" for welding candidates. Around Chicago it was usually a razor blade with either a bead welded on edge or two blades welded together a the edge. A candidate would carry these around in his/her wallet like a business card. Claims of welding two gum wrappers together were usually regarded with some skepticism. I lost my meager welding skills a long time ago.

 

[RaisedByWolves]

-I've brazed a fair bit of CI myself, I like/choose brazing and silver soldering when possible/appropriate. High heat seems a big risk of a melted puddle for the OP's zinc die cast part doncha think?

On a different note- Would enjoy seeing the Steinel photos, don't see those very often anymore.

Sorry, getting my *** handed to me today at work, I wasn’t being clear.

No, I wouldn’t go near Ops part with a 10’ torch.

I’ll see about posting some pics of the mill. It’s kinda cramped where it’s at and wouldn’t photo well, but I’ll see what I can do.

 

[RoninB4]

Sorry, getting my *** handed to me today at work, I wasn’t being clear.

-Yep, never had my **** handed to me at work either......sorry to hear and been there too.

Photos when you're able. Hope your day goes better.

 

[skeer]

From what I've read/heard so far (and I'm by far no expert) is the low melting point of Zamak is the biggest issue. The Malloy rods are supposed to melt lower than typical Zamak. If true then I could see how it'd work.. obviously the composition of the rod's alloy comes into play.
I'd argue the composition of this stuff i known.. unless there are variations between the decades

 

[skeer]

There’s at least one other thread here about Super Alloy 1 and Zamak/c. Any thoughts?
Last night while trying to get to sleep I was thinking of using a sand form to hold the piece together and contained while maybe intentionally puddling the break. Or with having read about SA still using the sand form for safety in case of accidental puddling.. while brazing/soldering with SA.

And when I mention the sand form my thought process is one half of a typical casting block. Recess the part far enough that any puddling or weakness is fully contained.
There’s obvious risk in the nearby sections absorbing too much heat and being affected. Maybe some sort of heat sink would help..

Idk I’m spit-balling.

 

[Copymutt]

I notice parting lines on the original. Sand casting aluminum is not hard to do, especially when you have a good master.

 

[RoninB4]

Idk I’m spit-balling.

-While I admire the creativity you're considering you're also expanding the process considerably with making a casting. This is often referred to as "scope creep" or "analysis paralysis" in a project and I'm guilty of it too. Good imagination for restoration of a historic/vintage piece but you need to ask yourself "What is my objective?" If it's just to get the lathe running again so you can make parts then the effort spent in creating/casting a new part is a bit disproportionate to your objective. Hate to say it but your lathe isn't worthy of making a museum piece out of it. Get it running, make some chips and save that energy/creativity for something worthy of it.

The backing plates (perhaps one on either side) should do the job in a more expedient manner. Could even look more robust and nicer than the original casting with a little spit-n-polish if you choose to.

 

[RPH]

I would look into Lord Adhesives. They make structural glues that can be stronger than parent metal. Can be obtained in small amounts but expect it to cost a bit. Look at the pdf for the applications.

https://lordfulfillment.com/pdf/44/SG1018_LORDStructuralAdhesives.pdf

 

[skeer]

-While I admire the creativity you're considering you're also expanding the process considerably with making a casting. This is often referred to as "scope creep" or "analysis paralysis" in a project and I'm guilty of it too. Good imagination for restoration of a historic/vintage piece but you need to ask yourself "What is my objective?" If it's just to get the lathe running again so you can make parts then the effort spent in creating/casting a new part is a bit disproportionate to your objective. Hate to say it but your lathe isn't worthy of making a museum piece out of it. Get it running, make some chips and save that energy/creativity for something worthy of it.

The backing plates (perhaps one on either side) should do the job in a more expedient manner. Could even look more robust and nicer than the original casting with a little spit-n-polish if you choose to.

Eh very true. I'm guilty of over complicating things all the time. So the goal here is to repair the broken parts as cheaply, and effectively as possible.
After typing that I realize the irony in most of the ideas that Ive brought up so far here, lol. I might not have mentioned it but I have one other broken zamac part, one of the bolt tabs on the 10F-11 Gear case. That one is the primary reason I'm mentioning these more wilder ideas because Im not sure there is enough material there for reinforcing plates or brackets.

 

[CraigStu]

I like the idea of loose pins and JBWeld or similar. I think you could drill maybe 4 holes in both sides of that long crack. Maybe 1/8" to 3/16" and use pins <1/8". It looks like it self aligns when just held together pretty well. So fill the holes w/ JB, stick pins in them, a little more JB on the break surface between the pins and put it together. As the JB squeezes out wipe it off and then clamp it overnight. I don't think that would be the final though. I 'd then work on a piece of sheet steel maybe .090 to .100 thick. Form it as close to the surface as you can and drill several holes through it to clear 8-24 screws. JB it to the outside surface and set overnight. My thinking is that the JB will adhere it but also be a filler to mate the two close but imperfect surfaces. Now drill and tap the 8-24 (thinking this stuff is even weaker than aluminum so go coarse thread) holes through both the steel and the OE part. Then drill just through the steel large enough to remove the threads. Now the machine screws can add their strength to the assembly but not affect the alignment of the parts. You could use flat socket head screws and the counter bore would clear threads from the steel but I'd probably use rounded head so you thread clearing bore doesn't need to be as accurately aligned. Yor counter bore depth needs to be carefully controlled though. You could also JB the machines screws.

 

[skeer]

This is a much better worded version of the primary idea floating around in my head.


And me being me I gotta mention this one: Back to the idea of copper plating the two halves. If it can be done right, then using appropriate solder, I could solder the break itself. Then solder the backing plate to the assembly.. thinking the entire circumference of the backing plate. Then adding counter sunk bolts.

It's more work, and I have no way to gauge if the resulting piece would be as strong or stronger than JB.