GMC or Ford? Hmmmm...

[NUTTSGT]

us dept of energy gave ford 5.9 billion ..as requested
ford govt motors
http://www.sustainablebusiness.com/index.cfm/go/news.display/id/18900

GM is kicking Ford's **** in sales ..better product

Originally GM requested 10.4 billion, and resubmitted it for 14.4 billion from DOE too. Ford asked for 11 billion but got 5.9,maybe that's why GM resubmitted for more ?

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/01/27/dc-2011-gm-doe-loan-withdrawal-financial-health/

 

[NUTTSGT]

Why did GM turn it down ?

We don't want to have those kinds of debts to deal with. I think it says a lot about the financial health of the company. We will not back off on the work that we're doing, the development of technologies, the development of new vehicles. In fact, if anything, that is accelerated .


"I would certainly say that the American public would feel better about [us not taking the loan]," Welburn said.

Coming from Ed Welburn, the vice president of GM Design North America, Speaking on behalf of GM North America, Mark Reuss.

 

[47ford - 1.5ton]

I'd love a Volt... it's the only interesting hybrid/electric car to date. It combines an all-electric vehicle with a backup gasoline engine for extended trips. Perfect! The Cruze body is leagues ahead of the former GM el-cheapo models.

The "government" was not saying your employees don't matter, the theory was (no matter whether it was right or wrong) that if GM failed, due to the massive size of its supply chain, employees and past employees, and its overall impact on the economy, it would be cheaper to invest in it than to not invest. A supply chain goes a long distance - while Delphi isn't small, it could very well have suppliers who are small and suppliers suppliers who are small, that's why it's a "supply chain".

Have fun lighting on fire... the Volt is the biggest piece of electrical dog **** to hit the market........

FYI It's electrical range is the worst in the segment....

And your 'explanation' smells of rotten egg sulfur.....

 

[NUTTSGT]

Aleast they have a hydrant out front.

 

[t100]

Why did GM turn it down ? .

definition of a "loan": you have to pay it back.

 

[SpiderGearsMan]

toyota should build a hd truck and get in on the nonsense

 

[NUTTSGT]

definition of a "loan": you have to pay it back.

hahaha very true

 

[Chadro]

okay...

I'm not sure what is so funny. Ford did take a 5.9 Billion dollar loan and GM did outsell Ford in Jan/2012.

167,962 to Ford's 136,710



I'm not sure why Ford nutswingers have such an inferiority complex. Bitching about the bailout and urging everyone not to support GM would be like buying Snap-On stock and then telling everyone Snap-On makes **** and to stay away. You want to ***** about you tax dollars helping GM out but you don't want to recover your tax dollars or potentially make a profit? Sounds kinda retarded.

 

[V70R]

For the size of GM, they should have had higher sales figures. GM was down 6% just in January 2012 while Ford is up 7% and Chrysler LLC show gains at 44% in the same time period. Heck, the Ford Ranger sold over 5,000 models alone.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/news/1072422_january-2012-car-sales-are-strong--except-at-gm

 

[47ford - 1.5ton]

I'm not sure what is so funny. Ford did take a 5.9 Billion dollar loan and GM did outsell Ford in Jan/2012.

167,962 to Ford's 136,710

I'm not sure why Ford nutswingers ................... Sounds kinda retarded.

^^^You sound pretty intelligent yourself...




Best Selling Vehicle in the US: F150
Best Selling Truck in the US: F150
(And NO your sierra + silverado math doesnt hold true anymore)


But yes General Motors sells more vehicles...
Ford did outsell Chevrolet this year though so thats cool... (Another straight 16 quarters of Ford taking market share % points)

 

[toolmaker1]

Funny we talk about sales numbers without specifics?


Best selling vehicle in the US is? (Its the same one thats been the best selling truck for 34 years)...

Marketing b.s. - add all the gm trucks sold(chevy+gmc) they have outsold the f150 quite handily. Only because of the name difference. Now I don't have a dog in this fight because I have been driving the same ram 1500 4wd 318 since 1999 with the same engine and ******. I believe that that era was the last real half ton truck (dana 44 front). Poor old truck has had 10000 lbs of dump trailer and pea gravel behind it more than once and it didn't do it very fast but didn't blow up as some would have you believe. She has been a dead reliable old truck as long as you can afford to feed her

 

[toolmaker1]

Also ford credit did take a bailout so to say ford didn't take the bailout is just semantics. I personally can't wait till the high strung twin turbo v6's (ecoboost) start spitting parts all over the highway in a few years. That amount of complication to gain one maybe two mpg over the gm v8's is just downright silly

 

[wafrederick]

Fords have zero resale and GMs do.My father got a couple people owning Lincoln Town Cars into Buick Park Avanues not going back.Muskegon County Police department has gone to Chevy Tahoes and Suburbans replacing the Crown Vics.Plus most poice departments don't like the new Ford Taurus at all,Ford is losing the police car market to GM including Dodge

 

[kythri]

No, Ford Credit sold the government 15.9 billion of commercial paper. This is an investment by the government.

Yes, they did. As did every other automaker, including GM, Chrysler, BMW, Toyota, etc.

You can try to make Ford look bad by saying that they got the majority of the 29.8 billion the government bought, but that's only because Ford outsold everyone else 2:1.

The government started buying the commercial paper because the traditional lending institutions WEREN'T buying it. If nobody bought it, then no cars would be sold, because no loans would have been being purchased.

This so-called "commercial paper bailout" is far from the real bailout that mismanaged companies like GM and Chrysler received.

 

[kythri]

I don't see that ecoboost engine not holding up called blown up.Is a V6 engine with two turbo chargers,not a good idea.Head people at Ford did morgage everything they bought during the bailout.I would love to take over Ford's engineering department,teach them not to everything the hard way and this is what Ford does 100% of the time.Get rid of the studs on their torque converters too,nothing but a pain the *** to line up.Ford says they have the best selling truck,wrong.If sales of Chevy and GMC trucks are added together,GM has the best selling truck.

Which one of your father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommates told you this?

 

[NUTTSGT]

Fords have zero resale and GMs do.My father got a couple people owning Lincoln Town Cars into Buick Park Avanues not going back.Muskegon County Police department has gone to Chevy Tahoes and Suburbans replacing the Crown Vics.Plus most poice departments don't like the new Ford Taurus at all,Ford is losing the police car market to GM including Dodge

Just more of your biased BS rhetoric that you constantly spew.



Police Depts jumped to the Crown Vic when Chevy quite making the Caprice. Ford has quit making the Crown Vic and Police depts are moving else where to other vehicles, including Tahoes (been using them for awhile since the Caprice left), Explorers, Expeditions, Charger and possibly back to the new Caprice.


Ford and Chevrolet both screwed up when they quit building the Crown Vic and Caprice. Ford's mistake was probably worse as they basically had a huge share of the LEO/govt market for patrol cars.

 

[kythri]

Fords have zero resale and GMs do.

Reality, meet wafredreick. wafrederick, reality. I don't think you two know each other.

My father got a couple people owning Lincoln Town Cars into Buick Park Avanues not going back.Muskegon County Police department has gone to Chevy Tahoes and Suburbans replacing the Crown Vics.Plus most poice departments don't like the new Ford Taurus at all,Ford is losing the police car market to GM including Dodge

Interesting note - Ford is trying to discontinue the entire Panther platform. It's the last body-on-frame RWD car in the US, and the market has shifted away from that style of design.

Small wonder that departments are moving away from the Crown Victoria, considering that the only reason Ford is producing them is because departments keep asking for them.

Most PD's don't like the Taurus because it's not a true full-size, and PD use wasn't a design consideration.

Try augmenting your illogical rant with a tad bit of fact and reality.

 

[wafrederick]

The Fords are flat out money pits and more expensive to repair than GMs.Have told one customer to take her explorer to the dealer,an ABS code which the only scan to to check the effected part is the factory scan tool.That is what my father does a lot if the problem is a huge headache with a Ford.Even had this with a Ford Minivan,there was a miss,nothing wrong with the coil or plug and compression was there.Customer ended up taking it to the dealer and it was the computer that took a dump.The mention of my father getting those people into Buick Park Avanues due to nice ride driving them is true

 

[t100]

Fords have zero resale

so used Ford vehicles are FREE? where do I sign up?

 

[kythri]

The Fords are flat out money pits and more expensive to repair than GMs.Have told one customer to take her explorer to the dealer,an ABS code which the only scan to to check the effected part is the factory scan tool.That is what my father does a lot if the problem is a huge headache with a Ford.Even had this with a Ford Minivan,there was a miss,nothing wrong with the coil or plug and compression was there.Customer ended up taking it to the dealer and it was the computer that took a dump.

Mmmmkay.

The mention of my father getting those people into Buick Park Avanues due to nice ride driving them is true

And likely, this is the only part that is.

 

[Chadro]

Best Selling Vehicle in the US: F150
Best Selling Truck in the US: F150
(And NO your sierra + silverado math doesnt hold true anymore)

For what? The last two or three years? What was Ford's excuse for the previous 2+ decades when Chevrolet/GMC sold more trucks?


Like I said, inferiority complex. Go cry in the corner and tell yourself how great Ford's are.

 

[jethro29]

no brainer,FORD ALL THE WAY! you'd be disappointed with a government motors vehicle.

 

[Coupe302]

Which one of your father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommates told you this?

lol that is so true, all my dad's family are GM nut swingers. I once bought a '92 K1500 from my cousin because he needed money, it had so many issues it was ridiculous. He knew it to because he had invested alot of money into it. When I bought it, I had it parked every two weeks because it needed fixing. So instead I would drive my drive my '87 mustang everyday. Anyway, I ended selling it back to him, I told him it was the biggest pos I've every driven. He still didn't admit it but we both knew the truth. It doesn't take numbers to find out which car maker is putting out a reliable vehicles.

 

[wreckerman5357]

I can't get past the GM interiors.. and the diesel tail pipe is unattractive.

The gasser ford only comes with the 6.2 now.. 411 hp.

The only other option is the diesel.

The 6.2 Ford would probably be my choice in a new pickup. I was looking last night and saw its the only option now. The tailpipe on the GM diesels is pretty stupid looking, but my rigs don't keep stock exhaust very long...

 

[Coupe302]

The only GM I would own is a 68/69 camaro or a Corvette ZR1 if it was given to me.

 

[trboxman]

It's rare to see so many interweb wangs being swung around at once...

 

[kythri]

It's rare to see so many interweb wangs being swung around at once...

Like a record baby round round round round!

 

[wafrederick]

Plus Ford will not warranty a lot of things and rust is one.I was told of a Ford Superduty with all 4 doors and tailgate rusted right out,Ford would not cover it since there was no rust holes.My father's friend Tom has a 1989 Ford F150 he has owned since brand new.Had the piston rings including rod bearings replaced under warranty.The old oil was dumped back in and was not too happy with that.Told him to get the oil changed since the oil was not covered.The engine did puke right after the warranty was done with and replaced with a Jasper reman.Ford did something in 1980 to their truck frames,drilled holes in the frames to make them lighter and was a huge mistake.Made the frame weak and Ford would not cover if a snow plow was installed.If you see this,that is factory.

 

[trboxman]

Dude, give it a fracking rest. This is a religious argument and you're not going make converts by telling them how stupid they are.

 

[Adam McLaughlin]

A friend of mine from High School bought a 1987 Ranger 2.9L.

Lasted 460 K miles until a tree fell on it outside of his house.

In that time, he put on a water pump, a clutch, a set of transmission bearings, and some hoses.

At 460 K miles.

Adam

 

[ishiboo]

Yes, they did. As did every other automaker, including GM, Chrysler, BMW, Toyota, etc.

You can try to make Ford look bad by saying that they got the majority of the 29.8 billion the government bought, but that's only because Ford outsold everyone else 2:1.

The government started buying the commercial paper because the traditional lending institutions WEREN'T buying it. If nobody bought it, then no cars would be sold, because no loans would have been being purchased.

This so-called "commercial paper bailout" is far from the real bailout that mismanaged companies like GM and Chrysler received.

I'm not trying to make Ford look bad at all, I'm saying being in the same position as GM they would have done the same thing, they were just in better shape... as GM was in better shape than Chrysler.

The differences between the commercial paper and buying stock are pure semantics when it comes to the "moral" BS people are spewing for buying Ford over GM/Chrysler.

 

[SpiderGearsMan]

I want me a free FORD ..just junked one for 275 ...NJHANDY GUY got over 5 bills , but he knows people

 

[SpiderGearsMan]

selling more trucks means nothing there are also more stupid people than geniuses

finally ford jumps ahead of GM in the sales race

 

[kythri]

I'm not trying to make Ford look bad at all, I'm saying being in the same position as GM they would have done the same thing, they were just in better shape... as GM was in better shape than Chrysler.

The differences between the commercial paper and buying stock are pure semantics when it comes to the "moral" BS people are spewing for buying Ford over GM/Chrysler.

I can't speak for everyone, but for me, the issue is, why support a company that can't manage it's way out of a paper bag? Why should we continue to reward failure?

It's asinine that people's homes are being taken from them, but corporations like GM are being rewarded.

Ford? Yeah, they didn't screw up like GM or Chrysler, so that's part of the reason I'm resolute in my support for them.

The actual bailout (that GM and Chrysler received) and the commercial paper buying aren't anywhere near the same thing, and, as I said, the majority-amount of commercial paper bought from Ford isn't indicative of anything more than their popularity and their success at selling cars.

Two completely different situations - the commercial paper buying was a result of banks refusing to buy (after we bailed THEM out), not a consequence of anything any of the automakers did wrong.

 

[SpiderGearsMan]

ford overextended in 2006

 

[SpiderGearsMan]

America’s bailout-free automaker has had more than its fair share of government help to beat the debt. According to the WSJ [sub], Ford’s extensive collection of government loan guarantees has been key to its ability to pay down more expensive debt accumulated during Ford’s 2006 restructuring.

Last week’s US Export-Import Bank loan of $250m was just the latest in a string of government loan guarantees that have helped Ford cut its debt. THe UK government also recently put a $572m guarantee for a $715m European Investment Bank loan to Ford. The EIB has also promised Ford $527.6m to produce cars in Romania. Ford has also taken on $1.8b in low-cost Department of Energy loans this year, on top of last year’s $5.9b DOE “Section 136″ retooling loan. And the help is working

In April [Ford] made a $3 billion pre-payment on a $7.5 billion revolving loan.

In June, it paid $3.8 billion in cash to the United Auto Workers Retiree Medical Benefits Trust. A large chunk of the payment for retired worker health-care benefits was paid ahead of schedule.

Ford said its total debt payment in the second quarter should yield annual interest savings of more than $470 million.

 

[otis66]

Man, I must be old as dirt. When I was younger...Back in my day...The Chevy, Ford, Dodge debate was totally different.

 

[RLRRLRLL]

Ford

 

[slip knot]

I've driven GM trucks since 1986 when I bought my 1st new truck. Bought 5 more over the years and multitudes of stock on good ol GM as well. After 2008 I'll never buy another GM vehicle unless nothing else is available. I'd rather drive a Yugo!! At least they go out of buisness the right way. Good ol GM took my 6000 shares and flushed them down the toilet, then comes back as the same ol but new GM.

Screw em. Ford will get my money next time!!

 

[fivespdcat]

Why did this thread turn into a pros and cons of the bailout? It happened,
Like it, don't like it, doesn't matter. Do what you want with your dollars, that's your choice.

BTT, I saw the Ford display and the Lista boxes were very nice, but I couldn't help but shake my head when I saw the tech assembling and disassembling the engine with an impact using regular Craftsman chrome sockets. I mean you're at an autoshow, use the right tools!