going from a subpanel to a 200 amp service.

[bugman53]

I just bought a house in climax NC that has a 28x40 shop 100 feet from the house with asphalt between them. It is currently wired with a subpanel and 6 gauge wire off a 60amp breaker. I need more power. I have done a good amount of electrical work in the past but never a new service. also this development is all under ground wire. I called duke energy and the lady on the phone said there should not be any charge up to the meter base, from the meter base on is my responsibility and i need to have it inspected first.

The current setup, The sub panel i installed when we moved in(to replace the mess that was there) I rewired some circuits but mostly just tied into existing circuits, A 100amp sub panel fed by 6g wire and a 60 amp breaker on the house, 2, 8 foot ground rods.

What i plan to do, Install a 200 amp main panel for the new service and wire the current panel as a sub panel so i do not have to rewire the whole shop. Then in the future when i install new circuits wire them to the new main panel.

Is there any problems doing this? Also will the whole shop have to be inspected or just just new panel?

A few other questions,

None of the outlets are GFI do i need GFI outlets? The Garage door openers are not GFI either.

The outlets are only 18 inches off the floor is that a problem?

I also have a 220 between two garage doors, there is about 3 feet between the doors any problems with this?

 

[dave*99]

It seems you are planning a separate meter and service for your shop. Others have reported that their electric company charges extra for a second service on a property. Many have commented that the charges are significant. How does Duke Energy handle this in your area?

 

[dw1]

It seems you are planning a separate meter and service for your shop. Others have reported that their electric company charges extra for a second service on a property. Many have commented that the charges are significant. How does Duke Energy handle this in your area?

I installed a separate 200 amp underground service to my pole barn, I have a minimum $ 25.00 meter/service charge each month.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So u want to hang a new service on the garage?

What equipment do u have in there or plan on running?

Do u really need 200a in the garage?

What size conduit goes from the house to the garage?

If u do go with a new separate service on the garage, then the GEC for the rods will need to be redone so they terminate at the main seevice panel.

U will also need a 4-wire feeder between the new panel and the existing sub. Perfect time to upgrade the capacity on the sub.

 

[bugman53]

Yes i plan on installing a new service to the garage,

Right now i have a couple welders the biggest pulls 50amp at 240v, An 80 gallon air compressor 5hp 22amps 240, I am installing a 2.5 ton Hvac with 10kw heat strips(the main reason right here), Also a refrigerator, small Hot water heater, 8 6 foot lights, flood lights, a pole light out side. I want to be able to run the air compressor and welder with the heat on. 200 amps is probably over kill but a 100 amp service is just a tad small, I figure do it once and never have power problems in the future.

Duke energy has a $19.25 service charge for the added service.

The digbats that built this house did not use conduit it is just 6 gauge 4 conductor wire buried under the asphalt. (The guy obviously wired it him self and he whole thing was a mess, No ground rods, neutrals and grounds tied together, 14 gauge wire on 30 amp breakers, A switch labeled "dog heat" running to bare indoor 14g wire buried out in the yard on a 30amp breaker, 14 gauge outletsback stabbed with 20amp breakers.....I have torn out and fixed all of this and installed a new sub panel when we moved in a few months ago).

The sub panel is rated for 100 amp but i am probably going to move the big stuff to the new main panel and just leave that panel for the lighting and air compressor and anything new put on the main panel. I was thinking 6/4 and just keep it at 60 amps.Do you think i should just go ahead a run 3 gauge so i would have 100a if i need on the sub? Its going to be about 30 feet from the new main panel.

I did find out the some answers for our local inspector today, GFI is required for any outlet under 5.5 feet, A 220v dedicated circuit is exempt from that rule. But the kicker is i have to have those crappy tamper resistant outlets. I just put in all new heavy commercial 20amp outlets. And the whole building has to be to the current code since it is a new service.

 

[DeadSock]

Pull your old outlets in save a box. Put cover plates over all but one outlet which is tamper resistant. Pass inspection.

 

[bugman53]

That sounds like a plan!

 

[bugman53]

The engineer came out and the short version is he does not know if they can come off the road directly to the shop and was thinking they would have to come off my existing meter base(on the house) and if that is the case we have got to tear up 40 foot of asphalt which defeats the purpose to start with. I would not think that the existing line would support another 200amps, But if that is the case ill just change the meter base and run a 400 amp single service and run my own wire to the shop and save the $19 a month service charge and higher rate power.

He is going to look at the site map and let me know. If we have to tear up asphalt that i have to pay for then that defeats most of the purpose Hopefully that can just run straight to the road and not cross the asphalt. If not i might just upgrade the current wire so i can run the sub panel at 100amps and make due with that.

 

[CNGsaves]

^ ^ ^ If the asphalt is in such terrific condition, then you could consider Horizontal Boring to go UNDER that portion of property. This may be cheaper than cutting/trenching the asphalt with subsequent patch.

Sprinkler installation companies would have this equipment with Ditch Witch or Vermeer.

 

[bugman53]

I herd back from the engineer and it is a no go, They would have to tear up 3 of my neighbors driveways at my cost. 8k+ and i am sure they would not like me even if we stayed in the right of way. He is checking to see if he can upgrade out home service to a 400amp and then i can come off the meter base to the shop but i dont think that the conductor already run or the transformer would handle it.

So this leaves upgrading wiring for the sub panel to carry 100amps and just don't turn everything on at once. I could do 5kw heat strips and a LP heater if it gets really cold, If i can keep it above freezing in the winter that is the main goal.

I am going to have the driveway widened soon so i am just going to cut the asphalt and have them patch it when that do the other work. On a positive note I bought a husqvarna 75cc gas powered rescue saw to cut the asphalt!....LOL excuse to buy a new tool.

What would be the best wire to run? It needs to be 4 conductor.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

How long would the wire run be?

If u want 100a, then u will need min. #1 al or #3 cu. NOT counting voltage drop.

 

[Ole Slewfoot]

Yeah, my shop came wired with 80 A what I think to be buried #6 al , and it is kinda melty. I'm a little over 100 feet away.

 

[bugman53]

it is going to be about 125 foot of wire.

 

[bugman53]

Ok new plan the engineer said as long as our load does not exceed the conductors running to the house i can put in a 320amp(400amp) service. So the plan, do some math and check conductor size, Our house is fed by underground cable so it might be big enough. Then put in a meter base that will take 2 feeds and run one to the existing panel and one to the shop. And i will have 200 amps and no second meter charge! Also i can run 3 conductor wire to the shop since it is a service entrance.

A couple questions, If i put a disconnect at the meter before the wire to the shop can i still get away with 3 conductor or would i need 4? I would like to go ahead and get the meter installed and then after i get the trench dug and everything ready then i can hook it up to the meter, it would save another trip from the power company to cut power to the house and a piece of mind that i can kill the power in case of a problem.

Anything i am missing?

 

[dw1]

A couple questions, If i put a disconnect at the meter before the wire to the shop can i still get away with 3 conductor or would i need 4? I would like to go ahead and get the meter installed and then after i get the trench dug and everything ready then i can hook it up to the meter, it would save another trip from the power company to cut power to the house and a piece of mind that i can kill the power in case of a problem.

Anything i am missing?

No, your disconnect changes the rules, it would need 4 wires.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yeah, my shop came wired with 80 A what I think to be buried #6 al , and it is kinda melty. I'm a little over 100 feet away.

Thats a bit small for 80a. No wonder its melted.

it is going to be about 125 foot of wire.

#1 al @ 125' will be fine for 100a!

Ok new plan the engineer said as long as our load does not exceed the conductors running to the house i can put in a 320amp(400amp) service. So the plan, do some math and check conductor size, Our house is fed by underground cable so it might be big enough. Then put in a meter base that will take 2 feeds and run one to the existing panel and one to the shop. And i will have 200 amps and no second meter charge! Also i can run 3 conductor wire to the shop since it is a service entrance.

A couple questions, If i put a disconnect at the meter before the wire to the shop can i still get away with 3 conductor or would i need 4? I would like to go ahead and get the meter installed and then after i get the trench dug and everything ready then i can hook it up to the meter, it would save another trip from the power company to cut power to the house and a piece of mind that i can kill the power in case of a problem.

Anything i am missing?

No u would have to run 4-wire. After the first disconnect is always 4-wire.

Why not put in a fuseable disconnect near the meter for the shop. Then u can wire in the feed to the shop down the road without having to have the power disconnected again!

 

[pattenp]

Yes.. do put in a double disconnect at the meter for both the house side and shop side. That way if you ever need to update the panels or feeders you don't need to have the meter pulled to disconnect power to the panels.

 

[bugman53]

I just checked the underground feeder and its 350 wire, Its about 150 feet to the transformer. I think that will support a 320amp service i need to do some research to make sure before i pull a permit or call an electrician.

 

[bugman53]

looking at the nec chart 310.15 (B)(7) it seems 350 AL wire is good for 300amps Does this mean i cant install a 320 amp meter base or just my load has to be under 300 amps, In all reality i will never be pulling 300 amps at one time but i might be pulling over 200 hence the upgrade.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Since it's an underground feed that should be the poco's responsibility.

that is correct 350Kcmil is good up to 300 A.

The service you want install is 400 amp(320a continuous) so you would need to have the poco run larger 600Kcmil underground wire.

The next question is how large is the poco's conduit?

 

[dw1]

Since it's an underground feed that should be the poco's responsibility.

that is correct 350Kcmil is good up to 300 A.

The service you want install is 400 amp(320a continuous) so you would need to have the poco run larger 600Kcmil underground wire.

The next question is how large is the poco's conduit?

It must be geographical, around here, you (The Owner) are responsible for the underground feed to your meter (secondary side) if you have issues, rocks, burnt service wiring, its on your dime, Overhead, the power company is responsible to the service mast/weatherhead. I would call and get the power company out there, see what they would do for free or a small fee!!
As Wylie has stated, maybe if the conduit, if used, is big enough, it might not be that bad.

 

[CNGsaves]

^ ^ Not necessarily so (for conversion anyway). My PoCo says if I convert to underground feed (instead of aerial) that PoCo provides and determines wire size.

For about 25 feet from pole/transformer they quoted $450 to convert me to buried . . . . BUT . . . I'd have to trench 3 ft deep and provide 3" conduit. Of course PoCo provides meter, but the meter can and all other conduit would be on me.

= = = = = = = = =
At my prior house, it was built in 80's and entire neighborhood was buried service. I would expect that PoCo would be responsible UP TO METER.

 

[bugman53]

The way duke energy does from what i understand is it is free unless they have to come under asphalt or any obstructions. Then you have to pay to trench and for conduit. That is what they said to install a new service. I would assume it is the same to upgrade. And of course its run under my driveway and through a 6 foot deep ditch full of big rock and my neighbors driveway or the road( also a private road for the subdivision so anything i tear up i have to fix). So unless it is in conduit already and they can pull it through it would be a no go.

Does the meter base have to match the service? can it be a 320 amp meter base and a "300amp" service as long as the load is not over 300 amps?

 

[dw1]

The way it is here, I purchase their listed meterbase, if O/H I install service mast, weatherhead and wire, power company runs wire and connects service, they maintain to the W/H. Underground, I dug my trench, ran my own pvc conduit and pulled my wire to the underground tap box that I bought and installed with in 10' of their pole, I come out of the tap box with 2 1/2" pvc and turn up their pole, they take it from there. I just wanted an underground service to my barn. They do supply 3ph meterbases and CT's anything else the contractor supplies.

 

[bugman53]

I ended up upgrading the house from a 200 to a 320/400 amp service. I just installed a new 320amp meter base with double lugs on the feed side, I connected the house panel to one set and that leaves me another set to feed a 200 amp panel to the shop. It will be 165 feet of wire to the shop. Since there is no disconnect i can run 3 wire,

I am planning on running 4/0 urd to the shop, My question is can i use 4/0 4/0 2/0 or do i need 4/0 4/0 4/0 urd. The 2/0 neutral is cheaper and available for 1.88 a foot at lows they only have 4/0 neutral in 500foot spools.

 

[bugman53]

PS. The demand load on the neutral will be worst case 100amps as most all the loads are 220v.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Not a good idea to have that much unfused service entrance wire. If it were mine, i would put disconnects at the meter.

 

[dw1]

Not a good idea to have that much unfused service entrance wire. If it were mine, i would put disconnects at the meter.

I agree with Wylie, 165' is a long way, with no service disconnect, if you ever did have any problems, it could have effects on your whole service (House) ect.

I am planning on running 4/0 urd to the shop, My question is can i use 4/0 4/0 2/0 or do i need 4/0 4/0 4/0 urd. The 2/0 neutral is cheaper and available for 1.88 a foot at lows they only have 4/0 neutral in 500foot spools.

Make sure your URD is dual rated to enter your building, is there an electrical supply house anywhere around you, might find the wire cheaper, specially paying cash $$


In Edit: I was trying to find code reference for over current protection with in so many feet of the load side of meterbase ??

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Not a good idea to have that much unfused service entrance wire. If it were mine, i would put disconnects at the meter.

I agree with Wylie, 165' is a long way, with no service disconnect, if you ever did have any problems, it could have effects on your whole service (House) ect.

I am planning on running 4/0 urd to the shop, My question is can i use 4/0 4/0 2/0 or do i need 4/0 4/0 4/0 urd. The 2/0 neutral is cheaper and available for 1.88 a foot at lows they only have 4/0 neutral in 500foot spools.

Make sure your URD is dual rated to enter your building, is there an electrical supply house anywhere around you, might find the wire cheaper, specially paying cash $$


In Edit: I was trying to find code reference for over current protection with in so many feet of the load side of meterbase ??

Believe it or not there isnt a code requirement. However many AHJs have local amendments limiting it to 5-10'.

Regardless of code, its NOT a good idea.

 

[Cmreschke]

Not a good idea to have that much unfused service entrance wire. If it were mine, i would put disconnects at the meter.

Not that it's not a good idea, I think it's a violation due to your mains not being grouped. As far as the unused underground, the poco does it and it's all over yards in new construction all the time with no issue.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Not that it's not a good idea, I think it's a violation due to your mains not being grouped. As far as the unused underground, the poco does it and it's all over yards in new construction all the time with no issue.

However, unfused wire inside buildings is NOT a good idea thus why many AHJs limit the length to short distances!

 

[bugman53]

If you come off the meter base directly it is treated the same as what is burred in your yard from the transformer. Think about it everyone with underground (ps this is all going to be underground) you have 100+ feet off the transformer then to the meter and your house unfused there is no difference. If there is a major problem you just pull your meter and it will kill the power to everything. I would make sure you have a good set of insulated gloves and face shield when you pull your meter.

I have been through the NEC code book and talked to my local inspector. The wire is considered Service feeder until your first disconnect. And all disconnects have to be grouped at EACH building. Also once you hit your first disconnect device it is no longer considered Service feeder and then you have to run 4 wire to everything. And rewire your main panels as subpanels.

So scenario 1, You put a disconnect after your meter for the shop, Now due to the grouped disconnect rule you will have to put another disconnect for your house panel and rewire you house panel so all the grounds and neutrals are separate and run 4 conductor wire. Then you will have to run 4 wire to the shop. You will have to bond your neutral and ground in the meter base and find some lugs for 2 more ground wires.

Scenario 2, You come off your meter base with no disconnects and straight into your house panel with 3 conductor(just like almost all are wired) and then you double tap the meter base load lugs and run that to your shop with 3 conductor, Then you bond your shop ground rods and neutrals in the shop main panel. Now all your disconnects are grouped for each building (the 200amp breakers in each panel) and since your first disconnect device is the main panels you can run 3 wire to each not 4.

I agree that you can’t run URD inside a house for good reason the insulation will burn and is not flame retardant. Now one way around this is a junction box on the outside of the building and run SEU cable to the panel. My local inspector said as long as I run conduit up the outside wall and put a ****** directly into the shop panel then that is fine and allowed by code. This would leave 4 inches of unfused cable inside. I am going to also put fire block in the ****** connecting the outside conduit to the main panel. I have heard that is depends on your local inspector and how they interpret the NEC code on this. I think I read you are allowed 6 inches inside with URD if it is in conduit but don’t quote me on that.

I like the idea of a disconnect near the meter base but run the numbers and the cost difference is HUGE. 2 200 amp disconnects, 4 conductor wire, Rewiring the main panel if they mixed neutrals and grounds. So around 500 each for the disconnects. Another $300 for the wire and a lot more labor. So $1300 more if you do the work yourself. You can find 400 amp panels that have 2 main breakers that route would be a little cheaper.

I look at it like There is no difference than the wire coming into my house anyway as it is underground and unfused except coming up and going through a meter and then back underground. So back to the question can I treat the feed just as service feeder as the power companies do and run 4/0 4/0 2/0 or since NEC would apply at this point and have to run 4/0 4/0 4/0. I have been looking but could not find a direct answer.

 

[dw1]

[/b]

Believe it or not there isnt a code requirement. However many AHJs have local amendments limiting it to 5-10'.

Regardless of code, its NOT a good idea.

Thanks,
I looked for this in the code book and could'nt find anything, I have only run into this situation (Panel more than 10' away from meter) once and that was a long time ago.