going to look at a lathe

[partsman]

I am going to look at lathe friday afternoon and have several questions. I am just begining to learn and found a clousing colechester in the local penny pincher for $500. the guy who has it says he got it from his company 6 years ago when they moved and just never got around to hooking it up. Is it going to be a problem that it has sat for 5-6 years he says he has sprayed it down with wd-40 to prevent rust and everything turns freely
like i said i havn't seen it but he says it will hold up to a 5' peice, he is also said he is throwing in a large amount of toooling for it a 6 jaw chuck a collet chuck and a 4 jaw chuck and last of all a hydraulic turit for it . so my questions are is it worth it and if so what should i look for that i am not getting a pile of worn out junk.

 

[MXtras]

Without seeing it, there is no way to know.

Having a machine sit without attention can cause trouble - especially in a condensing environment. If the shop it's in is not climate controlled, it's possible for the rust monsters to have attacked the hidden areas like bearings and under the ways.

Based on what you have conveyed, I would go look at it. No doubt about that. It sounds like a larger lathe (especially if it has a turret) and it is a reputable brand name. Hell - I am interested in it!

Scott

 

[partsman]

like i said i am just learning, what i know now is from watching over the guys shoulder at the shop when he does work for me. i just enrolled in nite classes to learn how to work it .
if i do buy it it will pay for itself in 2- 3 month's time my local machine shop just raised there rates and i just cant see paying them for stuff i could do myself.

 

[OldCarGuy]

Great Lathe!!

Even without seeing it, I would venture to say it’s worth the $500.00,, at least for me. Unless it a pile of iron, it can be rebuilt. You mentioned it comes with tooling,, a six jaw chuck, if it’s a “Buck” brand, alone is easily worth $500.00. Let alone collets, turret, etc…

I suggest that you bring someone that is familiar with machine tools to help you evaluate the lathe. And if it isn’t under power, it would be hard for anyone to determine if the gearing is good. The overall condition will tell you if it was taken care of. Check for backlash in the cross screws, warn or dings in the ways.

I own a Clausing Colchester Lathe that has a 15" Swing 60" between centers. It’s a 1980 model year and a very accurate lathe. If the one you see looks as good as mine, buy it! But remember it weighs about 3,500 pounds. Not a problem for me to move, as I have equipment and trailers to handle it. But you may have to get a rigger…

Here is an ebay listing of a 1978 with an buy it now price of $4,900.00...
Clausing Colchester Lathe

 

[partsman]

old car guy i am glad you saw this, you are one of the reasons i joined here your shop is amazing. and i saw that you had one of these brands
the guy who has it now says he thinks its a late 60's early 70's model the company he worked for bought it new in when they opened.
it isn't under power thats what i am a little worried about it was set up to be hard wired in and he never got around to it.
getting it home is going to be a problem i dont have access to a crane or anything so i figured ramps and pully system to get it to where it needs to go.

 

[partsman]

this probably a stupid questions but what is a rigger i have heard the term but dont know what it is

 

[OldCarGuy]

A rigger is noting more than someone that specializes in moving machinery. They charge Big $$$$ to use... Some times flat bed tow trucks have the experience to move machinery.

I moved a lot of machines using rollers made from cut off broom sticks or steel pipes. You’ll need a pinch bar to get the lathe high enough off the floor to place four or so rollers underneath. You keep recycling the roller that comes off the back end and place it up front.

Might you have access to a pallet jack? Seeing that most the weight is over the headstock, placing it lengthwise will balance the lathe. And can be easily moved around with two people. .

 

[goodfellow]

A "rigger" is a professional, bonded mover of industrial and heavy equipment. They are worth a look if you don't have the skills and/or ability to lift, transport and install heavy machinery.

It is a very skilled profession. Unfortunately there are many who represent themselves as "riggers", but don't have a clue how to properly move large precision equipment -- such as machine tools. If you go that route, ask for references. Pros will gladly give them.

 

[Uncle Buck]

like i just enrolled in nite classes to learn how to work it .

Going from your quote you are enrolled, but do not have a history with the instructor? (speculation on my part) What about making a point of hunting the instructor down and trying to enlist him for your visit and viewing of the machine? A trained set of eyes could really do you a world of good prior to the purchase. It may be a long shot, and sure, he may turn you down flat on the spot, but the then again he may surprise you and readily agree to lend a hand to one of his budding new students. After all students are what keep guys like him in a job. I think my local vo-tech guy would do this in a heartbeat; at least that is the way he has always made it sound. So far the other guys that have posted have hit all the important things to note in my opinion. One last thought, maybe the seller would help with moving the machine if you throw another c note or so at him? Just a thought. Good Luck

 

[partsman]

enrolled was probabley the wrong word. i paid the fees for the books and class time and start 1/7 is the first class . so i gues register would have been better.
i think i can move it i do have trailers getting it off and into place is going to be the tricky part, but i do have some old pully systems useing that and what old car guy said and hopefully it will work, i am just worried about it tipping

 

[OldCarGuy]

In that era,, Clausing Colchester also made a 13” swing lathe that would hardly tip the scale over 2,000 pounds. And a piece of cake to move. But they were made with 40” between the centers. Be interesting what model it turns out to be. Make sure you take some pictures for us to see!

Yet another thought in moving… There is a eyebolt hole (think 1”-8 NC thread) in the first rib toward the headstock between the ways. If you screw in an eyebolt, and by positioning the carriage and tailstock, the machine will be balanced. Then pick it up with a chain and cherry picker.

Another thing you need to fit into the equation. The motor is a 7 1/ 2 HP that runs on either 240 or 480 Volts three-phase. You will need a rotary phase converter! Assuming you have 240 Volt single phase where you’ll be putting the lathe. There are all kinds of experts out there that will sell you a bigger one than you need. But since it is setup with a clutch drive, a 10 HP is more than enough to satisfactorily power the lathe. That’ll set you back another $600.00 for a new one. Rotary Phase Converter
Or you can build one from plans found on the web… Depending on what you can scrounge around for a 10 HP three-phase motor, some capacitors, relay, wire, and an enclosure you may keep that price to a few dollars…

 

[partsman]

that is one question i did ask him, it does run on 240, i do have 3 phase power at my shop..... i think.
that is one thing i will be honest i do not at all understand is electric for some reason it just wont click in my head. everytime i touch it i get burned shocked or blow some breakers.
i gues maybe i should think about some nite classes in that

 

[partsman]

my shop was a old corner store and they had several large cooler units so i dont think the electricity is going to be a problem, At least i hope not
unless i decide to put it my house instead of my shop

 

[MXtras]

A VFD (Variable Frequency Drive) will allow you to run a three phase motor off of a single phase supply, so don't put too much weight on the voltage of the machine. It sounds like a good opportunity to me.

Scott

 

[partsman]

after being over at my shop this evening and talking with the previous owner of the building i dont have 3 phase i assumed with al the coolers he had it did. so if i do buy this lathe i am going to be asking alot of questions to understand how to do this.
there was recently a thread on the jj about homade workshop tools and th one guy has a homade setup to do what you guys are saying. but i would rather go a safer way.

 

[Uncle Buck]

after being over at my shop this evening and talking with the previous owner of the building i dont have 3 phase i assumed with al the coolers he had it did. so if i do buy this lathe i am going to be asking alot of questions to understand how to do this.
there was recently a thread on the jj about homade workshop tools and th one guy has a homade setup to do what you guys are saying. but i would rather go a safer way.

If the lathe looks great I would buy it and set it aside until you can afford a phase converter, the same lathe in great shape would easily take you way north of perhaps as much as several thousand dollars. Many times that is why bigger equipment in three phase goes so high; it scares off the home shop crowd. You could work this to your advantage and just pay as you go in manageable steps instead of one heavy outlay of cash all in one shot, besides, if the machine is in great shape you will be hard pressed to beat the deal for that money.

 

[partsman]

after looking at the wireing and the panel an other stuff, i am just wondering if i would be better off just putting it in my garage, at my house. its a fairly new house and i think i just might feel safer

after looking on ebay and talking to a guy down at the shop unless i see something that scares me with it , i will buy it. i am just trying to figure why it is so cheap. i am hopeing the guy just needs christmas money or something it just seems way to cheap for what the guy says i am getting. i didn't mention it before but the guy also said he was going to throw in a 12 pc cleavland adj. reamer set. the deal just seems to goood to be true

 

[OldCarGuy]

Twelve piece adjustable reamer see,, why wait until tomorrow? By all means check it out. The sure size of this lathe and being three-phase chases most home users away.

There is another three-phase power option to look at. You could replace the three-phase motor with a single phase 7 1/ 2 HP 240 Volt one. You should be able to pick one up for $500.00,, less if used..

 

[MXtras]

Or simply use a $250 VFD and have 100% variable speed.

Scott

 

[partsman]

witch way is going to be better, like i said before i dont understand electric. is it better for the tool to just get the moter to crank up the 3 phase or buy a new moter for lathe. i want do things the right way .
i wanted to look at it sooner but the guy who has works 12 hr nite shift 11-11 sunday to to thursday. so fri day is his first free day.
i am just not keeping my hopes up this deal just seems to good to be true. i am going to take plenty of pics to see what you guys think.
i might have a guy from the local shop where i get my work done to go with.
but talking to him he feels the same way i do, it just sounds too good to be true
lhe said what old car guy said the chucks and tooling are worth the 500 alone.

 

[MXtras]

There can be surface finish issues on a lathe when using a single phase motor. These issues do not exist when a three phase motor is used, so it is my opinion that using a three phase motor has benefit.

That being said, the use of a Variable frequency drive allows you to power the original motor with a single phase source. They are reliable, cost effective and provide beneifits that a rotary converter can not provide.

Go here for VFDs, or 'AC Drives':

http://www.driveswarehouse.com/

http://web1.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/AC_Drives

The selection and price depends on the HP of the motor and your available input source.



Also, these threads may interest you:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=121594#post121594

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10535

Scott

 

[partsman]

is the motor something i can install ? is it just a matter of running a line to the moter and one to the lathe and a new breaker?
can i run other equipment of of one motor or will i have to buy a moter for each piece of equip?
i am also looking for a small mill and possibly a surface grinder i assume they would be 3 phase as well.
is there going to be a noticable jump in my electric bill?

 

[MXtras]

Yes - you can install these things yourself.

Yes - the VFD will come with wiring directions. The directions will also include a lot of confusing discussion about setting acceleration and deceleration parameters and othe confusing topics, but 99% of the time, the default settings of the drive are adequate for basic motor operation. You supply the VFD with 220Volt power and wire it to the motor. Let us know when you get there and we can help - there are several of us here that know this stuff, I think.

One VFD per motor. You cannot effectively run more than one motor at a time from a single VFD. You might be able to share the VFD between motors, but not two motors at the same time. It would involve a little work but it can be done. It would be better to get a separate drive for each motor.

On the power bill - yeah, you might see an increase, of course. It's no different than running an air compressor though. I would guess that if you ran your new lathe to death every night for a solid month, your bill might go up $35-$40 depending on what your rate is. That's a guess, but it sounds about right. It might be cheaper to run it at your commercial site - your electricity might be cheaper per Kw/Hr there especially if it's a shared service. Check your bills for the rate.

Scott

 

[Charles (in GA)]

witch way is going to be better, like i said before i dont understand electric. is it better for the tool to just get the moter to crank up the 3 phase or buy a new moter for lathe. i want do things the right way .
i wanted to look at it sooner but the guy who has works 12 hr nite shift 11-11 sunday to to thursday. so fri day is his first free day.
i am just not keeping my hopes up this deal just seems to good to be true. i am going to take plenty of pics to see what you guys think.
i might have a guy from the local shop where i get my work done to go with.
but talking to him he feels the same way i do, it just sounds too good to be true
lhe said what old car guy said the chucks and tooling are worth the 500 alone.

Indeed, you could probably break it up for parts and make more from it than what you will pay. Hopefully it is in good shape. WD40 does a terrible job, it protects nothing, but adsorbs moisture wonderfully. Hopefully nothing more than a little surface patina.

Take the money, pay the guy, and get a written bill of sale!!! and get back to pick it up as soon as possible.

Charles

 

[Crossthread]

Here's my 13x36 clausing colchester of that vintage. a tad smaller than oldcarguy's. Sounds like a steal with the tooling mentioned. My buck 6 jaw was around 500 and the tooling adds up quick. I'm going to sell mine soon but it won't be anywhere near 500. Def take a second set of eyes if you can and remember this, it's not a steal of a deal if you get severely injured moving it. Be careful and hire people if need be.

 

[OldCarGuy]

I’m not so sold on VFD yet,,, and I’ll wait until they develop the next generation before I feel they are the end all for creating three phase power from single phase... They definitely are not the answer to all... Case in point... I purchased a new “TECO” VFD after the manufacturer said it would power-up my three phase 4,000 pound bridge crane. It would have been nice if it would have worked,,, simply pushing the up or down button at the hanging control station, and not having to run my RPC.... Low and behold,,, a VFD will not dis-engage the electromagnetic brake! And the only solution would be to run another pair of wires to the hoist to carry the true 240 Volt single phase from the breaker. The other major hindrance using it on a hoist is that all the control functions “up and down” has to be performed using the VFD not directly from the hoist’s control. Yet another set of wires! I went back to plan A,, and run it using my RFC... Most of the time I have it running anyhow as I am normally running one machine or another...

The second situation where you run into troubles with a VFD would be on my Kearney Trecker Rotary Head Mill. It has a total of Five separate three phase motors. Spindle, table feed, rotary head feed, coolant, and air motors. Consequently I would need Five VFD’s to run that machine alone... Plus I need to do some major modifications in order to synchronize the VFD’s to the manual feed levers that mechanically engage the gears to two power feeds...

I have a total of Ten three-phase machines in my Garage that can be run off a single RPC... Cost $600.00.... I would need Twenty-Two separate VFD’s and some major modifications to wiring to run them with VFD’s. Lets see 22 X $250.00 = $5,500.00.. You may be able to get a volume discount though... If I was going to lay out that kind of money,, I would shell it out for a Phase Perfect Digital Phase Converter. Then I’d have perfect three phase power... And call it a day.

By the way my smaller 14" swing lathe is powered by a Three HP Single phase 240 Volt motor. And I have never had any surface finish issues related to running on single phase power. It’s always ends up being either the set up, feed, RPM’s, or in the tooling.

 

[MXtras]

Yup - he's right. If you have lots of three phase toys, a VFD might not be for you.

And with all due repect, the single phase motor issue is there. Whether or not it effects your work is another story - but it's there.

Scott

 

[partsman]

i went to go look at it and i dont think it is as bad as he made it sound everything is solid the weighs are not worn and the head is tight. it just has some surface rust on the bare metal parts. i dont think it is to bad.
the only thing it is not a colechester it is just a reguler older model.
he offered to throw in a rockwell sander for a extra $150 i think i am going to get it. what do you guys think.
there is more pics i will load

 

[partsman]

whhoops
here it is

 

[partsman]

wtf i am an idiot

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Its a shame, a good coat of grease, LPS 3, best of all, Amsoil Metal Protectant, or a rubdown with heavy oil would have prevented the rust. WD40 simply causes rust.

Charles

 

[OldCarGuy]

It’s a Clausing lathe; but not a Colchester. The Colchester’s are gear head lathes and built much heavier and stronger. This Clausing lathe has a variable spindle RPM’s and driven by “V” belts rather than gears; but has a back gear for lower spindle RPM’s. They were built to compete with Southbend and Logan lathes. I believe it has the same taper\key arrangement for the chuck as the Logan. While Southbend uses a straight thread.

It looks as if it was built in the early 70’s. With z 12” swing and 30” between centers. The good news it should weigh about 1,000 pounds… Piece of cake to move..

I don’t know what you plan on doing or expect from a lathe. However it looks like a little TLC and you can have one heck of nice machine for your garage. I would definitely say it’s worth the $500.00. I see a four-jaw chuck, and a six-jaw. But where’s the rest of the toys that goes with the lathe? Like adjustable reamer set, collets, turret, etc.

The belt sander is nice… I’d say it’s worth what he’s asking.

 

[partsman]

yes it is a shame to have a tool like this and just let it sit.
yea that wd-40 isnt the grat stuff everybody thinks, i run into it all the time guys will spray bare sheat metal down and then think they can wipe it off an paint.

i think it could be cleaned up, i had to use my kids camera mine got droped and doesnt work .
but i really think the rust could be cleaned up for its age everything is still tite

 

[partsman]

more pics comeing shortly my daughter had to use my pc for some home work

what about the belt sander i cant find them on ebay or anything it has to be worth $150

 

[Freejack]

I'm not too familier with the 6 jaw heads, do that work similar to the 3 jaw or the four jaw?

Jake

 

[Uncle Buck]

more pics comeing shortly my daughter had to use my pc for some home work

what about the belt sander i cant find them on ebay or anything it has to be worth $150

No offense intended, but I think you need to quit posting pics, and go put some green brothers in that mans hand to get the deal sealed! PS. yes get the belt sander too if you can swing it, also a great deal!

 

[MXtras]

YES! That belt sander is worth $450 on EBay.

STOP PLAYING ON THE PC and go pick those machines up! NOW! Before the guy changes his mind!

Scott

 

[partsman]

its a done deal i just called the guy an told i will take it.
going over in the am to pick it up.
the belt sander that is going to be a big help i do alot with sheetmetal and that thing will be perfect.
thanks for your help guys i owe ya.
if any of you get to the reading pa area let me know an stop in

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Aerokroil and some maroon colored 3M Scotchbrite pads and most of the surface rust should come off. Aerokroil dissolves rust and turns it to brown liquid crud.

After you get it cleaned, you can coat the bare areas with Amsoil Heavy Duty Metal Protector which will dry to a waxy film. Might be too much for the ways and precision surfaces if you will be using it right away, but its easy to remove and it darn sure won't rust. A second choice would be LPS 3 but it doesn't have the staying power that the Amsoil product does.

Charles

 

[OldCarGuy]

I'm not too familier with the 6 jaw heads, do that work similar to the 3 jaw or the four jaw?

Jake

The jaws of a three jaw lathe chuck are linked together and close simultaneously on the work piece. The advantages of a three jaw is that you don’t have to use an indicator to set up a work piece. The disadvantage is it will only hold round, three, six or twelve side pieces. It has less holding power than a four jaw and if the chuck is out-of-true,, you’re out of luck.

Each jaw is tightened independently on a four jaw chuck. Therefor you can chuck up a round, square, rectangular, or odd shape parts using them. You are not limited to turning concentrically either. Plus it has far mor holding power on the workpiece.

Six jaw chucks are designed for more precise work and the most expensive.. Though the jaws on a six jaw chuck move simultaneously as a three jaw,, each jaw can be slightly adjusted independently to get the work piece running true.... Great for making concentric shapes on a finished diameter work piece. However more care must be taken using a six jaw chuck. And they are limited to holding round stock.