Got a Spray Foam Estimate

[Hurricanoday]

I got my 40x60 building up. I have had 2 people come out and take a look for insulation options. Haven't heard back from the fiberglass but I got a quote for spray foam....

To do the just the walls 2in they want $5k. I have the vapor barrier on the roof and they said it would need to be taken down. I doubt I would be doing that because I just paid to have it installed with my building (county code) Seems a lot with a 18x10, 2 10x10 and 12x12 door.

Not sure if the foam guy is just trying to sell me, but he is making a big deal about the building sweating. Basically saying anything but spray foaming the whole building (including roof) will cause the building to sweat.

I have googled a bunch and read all I can on here, but wanted to start the conversation again. The builder claims in will not sweat with the roof insulation/vapor barrier and when I do fiber insulation in the walls I would put a vapor barrier on the inside which means the metal would never touch warm air.

 

[Keel]

We take all labor out of installing insulation so we charge an arm and leg for it..
There is no reason spray foam is as costly as it is..
none

 

[Ombibulous]

I got my 40x60 building up. I have had 2 people come out and take a look for insulation options. Haven't heard back from the fiberglass but I got a quote for spray foam....

To do the just the walls 2in they want $5k. I have the vapor barrier on the roof and they said it would need to be taken down. I doubt I would be doing that because I just paid to have it installed with my building (county code) Seems a lot with a 18x10, 2 10x10 and 12x12 door.

Not sure if the foam guy is just trying to sell me, but he is making a big deal about the building sweating. Basically saying anything but spray foaming the whole building (including roof) will cause the building to sweat.

I have googled a bunch and read all I can on here, but wanted to start the conversation again. The builder claims in will not sweat with the roof insulation/vapor barrier and when I do fiber insulation in the walls I would put a vapor barrier on the inside which means the metal would never touch warm air.

This is my "go-to" site for all things insulation: http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/

Everything you wanted to know...times ten.

 

[Hurricanoday]

yea he seems like a used car salesman. I know everyone on here likes spray foam, but depending on the cost of the fiber estimate I would probably have to go with that. I am just worried about the building sweating. The foam guy was making such a big deal about it saying all the buildings sweat without spray foam.

He said since I have the vapor barrier on the roof and gable vents he said the blow in insulation would get wet/mold etc unless I took out the barrier and did the ceiling. I explained that eventually I wanted to do the metal under the trusses and just blow in insulation so I didn't have to heat so high up. He said it wouldn't work.

Then I asked what is the point of doing the walls with foam if everything else is gonna get sweaty.

 

[Aviatordave]

I just built a 40x80 barn with 15.5' ceilings. (3,720 square feet of wall space) Had just the walls spray foamed with 3" of foam. (So 930 cubic feet of actual foam) Cost me about $12K. (About $13 bucks per cubic foot) I don't know your ceiling height so I can't compare square footage. If you want you could calculate cubic foot of foam for a 2" depth vs a 3" depth and come up with whether or not my price was more or less than your quote. It was definitely expensive but I think it was worth it. It made the steel extremely rigid. In talking with the contractor that did it, he asked if I was going to put up a ceiling or just leave the trusses exposed. I'm putting up a ceiling so he recommended just blowing in about 20" of cellulose once I get the ceiling up. I also have ridge vent and vented soffit so spraying foam over it was not desirable. With 3" of depth I should have about an R21 value. The contractor pointed out that it's a better R21 than if I used fiberglass because of how well the foam seals to the posts, walls and purlins. He's right. There's NO gaps anywhere.
The foam is pretty solid. It's hard for me to scrape some off. (I've had to do that in a couple spots to remove a slight bit of overspray.)
The only down side I can think of is that it does nothing to attenuate noise. I'm boarding up over it to make walls inside once I'm done running all the electrical and I'm considering having some cellulose blown down between the foam and the walls to help dampen the echo factor. The contractor quoted me around $3K for the 20" of blown in cellulose for the ceiling. You can rent the machine and buy the bundles of cellulose to feed it if you want to do it yourself.
I've got the floor heated with geothermal piping. I've never had any part of the barn sweat in the summer or winter.

Hope this info helps.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Alexvbugman]

I have the same size building with 14ft ceilings and that's what I paid. I went with closed cell and its awesome.

 

[readhead]

Please research spray foam on metal siding. Most metal suppliers will not warrant the metal if foam is applied. You didn't say if it is a pole building or a metal building. I sell and erect metal buildings and note in our contracts that any warranty is void if spray foam is applied.

This is a fairly recent problem that is surfacing because of rust through of sheeting and structural components where foam was applied several years ago.

Another issue is replacing or repairing damaged sheeting which is basically glued to the building. We had to replace two sheets on a building which should have taken a couple of hours. We were there with two guys for two days.

I have no problem with spray foam. It is a great product and we use it in our wood sheds. But please reconsider it for application on metal. I know that there are thousands of building owners that love this stuff but it has turned into a time bomb.

 

[Hurricanoday]

It is about 13ft to the trusses and he said if I didn't want to do the triangle on the both gable ends it would save me about 600. Not sure if it would be worth it if I am putting a ceiling up eventually?

I'm at work so don't have access to my one drive, but here a couple of older pictures from my phone.

40x60 pole building

I also am not to thrilled with the cost and would like to go the cheaper route. I'm just worried about what the foam guy said about the building sweating and me having to pull out all the fiberglass insulation. I would love to just roll the insulation right in and be done with it.

I probably wasn't clear on that from my first post, depending on price if fiberglass will be fine and not rot out then I would probably go with that. Just looking for opinion/experience with their pole buildings and roll in insulation vs sweating (not just foam is awesome)

 

[Alexvbugman]

Please research spray foam on metal siding. Most metal suppliers will not warrant the metal if foam is applied. You didn't say if it is a pole building or a metal building. I sell and erect metal buildings and note in our contracts that any warranty is void if spray foam is applied.

This is a fairly recent problem that is surfacing because of rust through of sheeting and structural components where foam was applied several years ago.

Another issue is replacing or repairing damaged sheeting which is basically glued to the building. We had to replace two sheets on a building which should have taken a couple of hours. We were there with two guys for two days.

I have no problem with spray foam. It is a great product and we use it in our wood sheds. But please reconsider it for application on metal. I know that there are thousands of building owners that love this stuff but it has turned into a time bomb.

That's why I used Closed Cell foam.

 

[ctgoodman]

There are plenty of people who have insulated these types of buildings with conventional fiberglass roll insulation with no issues. I couldn't justify that expense to do foam.

 

[readhead]

Alex, please read again. The problem is the same with open or closed.

 

[Alexvbugman]

Alex, please read again. The problem is the same with open or closed.

What are you asking me to read?

 

[Alexvbugman]

Alex, please read again. The problem is the same with open or closed.

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com...en-cell-spray-foam-require-additional-vapor-b

 

[Aviatordave]

So about $11.5 bucks per cubic foot of foam. Not too far off from mine. A little cheaper.

My general rule with interviewing contractors is that if I get any kind of a bad vibe, I don't go with them. If he feels like a used car salesman and starts pressuring you I'd move on. I think I got quotes from about 7 different contractors before I chose one to build my barn. In the end I wound up talking to the local building inspector to see who he recommended. He sees all the good and the bad and knows the reputations and typically has their phone numbers. You could ask yours about insulation contractors.

I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that it's not a given that your building will sweat if you don't spray foam it. That line from the salesman alone would make me walk away from him.

Sure foam is nice but there's nothing wrong with fiberglass. Most houses use fiberglass just fine.


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[readhead]

Alex, that didn't address anything about metal failure and foam.

 

[Alexvbugman]

Alex, that didn't address anything about metal failure and foam.

First question is addressing it. I searched what you said and didn't find anything.

 

[Pig9r]

I was told the same regarding foam voiding the metal warranty by a couple builders including the local Morton builder. Another builder suggested using a building wrap on the backside of the metal in hopes it would not contact the metal. I got the impression they had not done that before.

 

[1966chevelle]

I talked to a guy last night about insulation. He told me that open or closed sell can not be sprayed directly to metal. He stated that it makes the metal rust from the inside out. He also told me that the best thing to due for the roof is to install a metal ceiling and blow insulation up there. Make sure you have ridge vents, soffits, and vapor barrier. He stated that this is the same as houses and it would save you a ton of money and headaches down the road. He quoted me $1800 for 14" which is R-38 value. My barn will be a 40' X 40' X 12' with 2- 12' X 10' insulated doors and a 36" service door. To spray the walls with 2" closed cell was $3,612 and 3" closed was going to cost $5,160.

 

[Keel]

What are you asking me to read?

oem vehicle makers are finding this out also.. foam holds moisture. closed or open cell doesn't matter..

 

[Kaizen]

Foam is ridiculous. If I was up in a zero degree place like Canada or Alaska I might. but spending that much esp in a garage is nuts imo. yea its great for R value but i'd rather fur out the wall and add more myself and save 5 grand. I can't even imagine paying for a whole house like you see on This old house. what 40grand?? I think i'd go buy a whole rig and do it myself. I'd love to know how much they get the material for

 

[Randy in Maine]

I would buy from a different metal building company if they don't back up the warranty if you are using CLOSED cell foam. It is your money, demand a better product.

 

[Hurricanoday]

I got one estimate back for fiberglass, it was rough over the phone but he said around 5k for r19 on the walls and ceiling. I told him about the metal ceiling and he said they would blow in 18in ( I believe) for around 1400.

So foam the walls for 5k or get the whole building done for 5k or less.... Seems like an easy choice. He also mentioned using the white vapor barrier on the inside and I wouldn't have problem sweating.

One thing he did mention was covering up both gable vents, seems like that might be an issue?

 

[Alexvbugman]

oem vehicle makers are finding this out also.. foam holds moisture. closed or open cell doesn't matter..

I just tore apart a 1965 Volkswagen Beetle with factory foam behind the rear quarter Windows and zero rust. I guess if I can get 50 plus years out of my metal I'll be happy. By the way, R value means nothing in a metal building, you have to seal it up first. Best way is closed cell foam, trust me you'll be glad you did the walls, and just blow in the ceilings.

 

[PeterT]

If I understand the original post, the concern was over dampness and moisture when NOT using spray foam.
I have a 100x40 10" ceiling, I sprayed the walls, and put R20 batts in the ceiling and other than this time of year March/April/May,, my shop stays bone dry. This time of year the floors perspire & have moisture, concrete floors become darker color - I run a dehumidifier which is a pain in the neck

 

[Donald Cook]

My neighbor has a building spray foamed for 30 years no problems,mine was foamed about 6 years ago, and also no problems, I only have spray on on the ceiling , I found some sheets real cheap for the walls, I wish I had put heat in the floor. I had to insulate, or heating it would have been $$$$$, it also cut down the noise from rain .

 

[mrpizza]

I am spraying my entire building with 2" closed cell. Expensive, but very worth it. Will cost me about 10k for a 40x64x10 for 2" roof and walls

 

[brownbagg]

its a shop not a house, so just add some fiberglass bats and plywood, you can do it steps at time, with what you can afford that week, do it yourself and save $4000

 

[lakeroadster]

Please research spray foam on metal siding. Most metal suppliers will not warrant the metal if foam is applied. You didn't say if it is a pole building or a metal building. I sell and erect metal buildings and note in our contracts that any warranty is void if spray foam is applied.

This is a fairly recent problem that is surfacing because of rust through of sheeting and structural components where foam was applied several years ago.

Another issue is replacing or repairing damaged sheeting which is basically glued to the building. We had to replace two sheets on a building which should have taken a couple of hours. We were there with two guys for two days.

I have no problem with spray foam. It is a great product and we use it in our wood sheds. But please reconsider it for application on metal. I know that there are thousands of building owners that love this stuff but it has turned into a time bomb.

Great perspective, thanks for posting.

 

[Jlbc212]

its a shop not a house, so just add some fiberglass bats and plywood, you can do it steps at time, with what you can afford that week, do it yourself and save $4000

^^^ This! I would also do fiberglass for the ceiling. I've seen way too many fires involving supposedly "fire retardant" cellulose.

 

[lakeroadster]

^^^ This! I would also do fiberglass for the ceiling. I've seen way too many fires involving supposedly "fire retardant" cellulose.

Or use Polyiso sheets, I was surprised, bet you'll be too. Polyiso... impressive stat's:

Fire Resistance Properties of Polyiso Foam Plastic Insulation Used in Wall Assemblies Facts and Comparisons

http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LE...uid=1031/RK=0/RS=Gs925dI4F.5GvjBpbq.18f2SrKU-

Based on the data presented in this technical bulletin, the following conclusions are substantiated:
1. Wood sheathing begins to burn at 400° – 500°F, while polyiso does not burn until temperatures greater than 800°.
2. Polyiso offers superior surface burning and flame spread fire-resistance properties in comparison to minimum building code requirements and other common combustible insulating and structural materials used for building envelope construction. Its flame spread characteristics are similar to gypsum wallboard.

 

[yeldogt]

What are they saying is occurring with the close cell foam on the metal -- is it occurring in some areas (climate) .... closed cell does not allow moisture travel ... it can't hold water.

Are the buildings rusting at the seams w/ closed -- where water is getting into a small cavity? I would think plastic sheeting would be more of a problem as it would create a void behind all of the metal.

I never use open foam .. and have never lived in an area that allowed metal buildings ..

 

[lakeroadster]

If water makes it's way through the steel panel, or if there is a void and condensation forms, the water is trapped between the foam and the steel. The steel will then rust.

One would think however that if the barn was wrapped with Tyvek or a similar product before the steel was attached, and then the foam was sprayed on the Tyvek and barn structural members (not the steel), that the end result would eliminate the warranty issues, and the inherent rust issues too.

 

[readhead]

A WRB is the answer John but of course nobody ever did that and now the problems are showing up.


Andy

 

[lakeroadster]

A WRB is the answer John but of course nobody ever did that and now the problems are showing up.
Andy

We tried to install a WRB on my barn.. the day we tried it was crazy windy = FAIL. Without sheathing, trying to cover the girts was not possible with windy conditions.

That shows the wisdom of http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/ which recommends OSB sheathing, then weather resistant barrier (WRB), then steel panels. Then spray foam onto the OSB inside the building.

Sounds like a good plan... and a lot of $$ and effort.

At some point a stick building starts making a lot of sense... or maybe a hybrid.