Got shafted by my township!!!

[HoosierBuddy]

When I faced this issue at my house, I decided to build a breezeway and an attached garage.

It was A LOT harder to figure out and plan for and more expensive than just building a standalone garage. However, it is more than worth the extra cost to be able to open a door in the house and walk into the garage, eliminating the need to walk through the rain and snow.

It was a lot harder to do the attached garage, but now that it's in, I'm SO HAPPY that's what we did.

Phil

 

[rieferman]

regarding the talk of hardships from end of previous page..

For an addition to our home (that we didn't end up doing) we needed a variance because it would violate setbacks. The township supervisors felt (after we carefully presented the other options) that any other building solution would be so cost prohibitive, that it would be unreasonable to require a tax payer in their jurisdiction to incur that cost, rather than break the setback. And therefore, I was approved.

Just saying, sometimes money hardship can get you there.. use the "reasonableness test", people seem to respond to that in some cases.

 

[DeucePhaeton]

I would have just built it anyways, then when asked say what? you need a permit to do that?

The township can require you to dismantle the building and remove it. They can give you a time limit to do so. And fine you for the infraction plus additional for each day you go past their limit. BAD idea.

 

[redsky49]

I think that an experienced Architect, familiar with local requirements, might help to ease your way through this maze. Oftentimes there are architects who specialize in land acquisition, zoning, site development and building design. They know the people and the method to obtain results.

I used to provide the MEP design for an Architect in Virginia whose design niche was working with congregations who were building new churches. He, by the way, was also a licensed real estate broker, and could provide a turn key service for new or established congregations looking to build and/or obtain building property. He was also pretty successful at this approach, maintaining a nice small design firm whose client base was probably 75% churches.

Once you have vented a little, ask around the area for some suggestions of people who might assist you, rather than trying to handle this entirely by yourself. No sense in trying to re-invent the wheel.

As always, offered only as opinion

 

[GTRClive]

Had a similar thing here in Alberta. Had to apply to the Rural Rocky View No44,
to ask for a 1200sqft Detached garage (Only 1/4 Acre Plot) only to find out the Maxium for detached buildings was 969sqft..... So resubmitted to find that meant Total of 969 if you had 2 buildings, if only one the max was 700. Gerrr....

In the end I found out that if attached it to the house I could have nearly 3 times that (all be it there would be no back yard) Crazy..... the setbacks where alot larger 2.4M side and 8M at the back but got the permit there and then no commity to bother.....

So after alittle conferrance with the wife (had to add some footage to the
house now have a 10x22 Office / Snug), this is what we went with....

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_dGrsGySHr9s/SszmjCOTMzI/AAAAAAAAASY/30Mt-3y8akM/s1600-h/garage+plan+e.jpg

The even crazy thing about this was that because it was attached now, I have not used my Detached alowence !!!! and as the detached rules give me alot smaller Set backs 1.2M I can build another "SHED" 24x16 behind the garage yet again get the permit over the counter....As long as the 2 seperated by 2" thats OK.....Will be building 3ft apart...

 

[Costner]

If you want to live in a restricted community, then move into a deed restricted community where you don't have to worry about your neighbors dropping your property value. Otherwise, **** it up.

Seems to me the only people who need to "**** it up" as you so eloquently put it, would be those who don't want to follow the local zoning laws and ordinances or those who feel they can creatively find ways around it that they think nobody will notice.

Such is life.

 

[ezover]

just a thought, depending on how hard you want to fight them.
had a uncle years ago, that the city had a problem with his garage and he came up with pretty slick trick.

have a buddy go to city hall and find out if a dog house is considered part of your out building restrictions. if it's not, build a big *** dog house.

and yes my uncle got away with it, he cut a hole in the side of the garage and painted fido over it.

 

[blkhonda1991]

just a thought, depending on how hard you want to fight them.
had a uncle years ago, that the city had a problem with his garage and he came up with pretty slick trick.

have a buddy go to city hall and find out if a dog house is considered part of your out building restrictions. if it's not, build a big *** dog house.

and yes my uncle got away with it, he cut a hole in the side of the garage and painted fido over it.

i find this VERY hard to believe

 

[travisd]

Do any of your vehicles have "collector" insurance on them that require them to be stored in a secure location?

 

[Chris Adams]

i find this VERY hard to believe

I've seen weirder. He may be accurate.

Building permits are basically a **** shoot. If they like you, you can build anything. If you get the right guy you can build anything.

Get the wrong guy and they will bust you for changing a circuit breaker without pulling a permit.


I was never allowed to build anything, got constant harassing from the city if I even asked about it.
Harassing is phone calls warning me against building anything, city trucks parking in my driveway and looking to see if I was building anything.

That went on for years, I didn't build anything.
Then I got a contractor with good rapport with the city.
No problem. Built and inspected, flying colors.
Using my new building.
My wife calls and asks about putting a car port shelter in another corner of the yard.
First person says, no problem.
Second person says, you have to get a variance, should be no problem but costs 125.

So we call the place that wants to put it in for me, schedule.

Then we get a call from another person at the city, the boss, who was the person who would never let us build anything.
He says if we ask for a variance he will prosecute us.
I couldn't figure prosecute us for what?

He becomes incoherent and says "YOU WILL NEVER BUILD ANYTHING THERE" and uses a racist expression against me.
I hung up on him.

Oddly, I have never met the man, never spoke to him before, even on the phone, as my wife (nicest person you ever met) has done all the calling.

City governments make banana republics look sane.

So no car port for me, but it is survivable.
My wife doesn't want to move or I would be out of this psychotic town and failing state in a heartbeat.

 

[CBR9Seadoo]

If you appeal the variance, this is your hardship

a) slope of the land does not allow me to expand my house.

b) If I were to bring in fill to expand the house, I would have to remove a few "old growth" oak trees.

c) (Maybe??) Building the garage in the proposed area is the only way I can afford to do this construction.

I read two years of variances before I filled in my application. My county almost always allows the variance if the lot is steep and trees would need to be removed. Read the past history on what your variance board approved.

You only have so many days to file an appeal, otherwise you have to usually wait 12 months to file again.

WOW! Wish I would have posted this before I was turned down.

 

[CBR9Seadoo]

Do any of your vehicles have "collector" insurance on them that require them to be stored in a secure location?

Yes, they all have collector car insurance, but I don't know about the storage part. I would have to ask.

 

[bazzateer]

You guys are sooo lucky across the pond, so much space! Your proposed new garage would almost fill my entire garden. The best I can hope for is a detached 26' x 26' which is actually everything I need for my 3 cars (our cars are a bit smaller than yours!).

Why not join the new garage with a breezway? You get the garage you want plus the breezeway, make it wide enough and you can park cars under it like a car-port.

 

[FatFndr]

I agree, check into that. I am currently considering replacing an old garage that by today's bylaws in my municipality is too close to the property line. I found a clause in the bylaws that grandfather's the footprint so I can replace the existing structure as long as I don't get any closer than it is today It was originally built about 35 yrs. ago before the current bylaws were updated.

I got around the restrictions by "rebuilding" my current structure, that is I tore down 3 walls, added more concrete floor for a bigger (maximum allowed by code) structure. The original wall I kept I built a new wall outside of it so that from the outside it all looked new but when you went inside there was the one original wall. Additionally since it was "rebuilt" and not a "new" structure, my taxes remained the same even though it was larger. Weird how that one worked out.

 

[ezover]

i find this VERY hard to believe

i had no reason to not belive him. no i did not check with the city, i took his word for it. yes i was a young dumb kid about 19 when he told me this, but he had many epic battles with the city of ferndale. if i had a reason to think he was bs,ing me i would not have brought it up. as they say YMMV.

 

[srmofo]

I feel your pain. I got shafted on a Variance meeting a few months back. The damn idiots had to restart the meeting 3 times because they didnt know how to hold a meeting in the form of roberts rules. I have never served on any board of any kind and I even know about roberts rules. The worst part about mine was that I was given 2 days notice that my design wouldnt be approved. I had new drawings in hand at the meeting for a smaller size and the should of tabled it until the city manager could review them....unfortunately I heard one of them mutter under their breathe "what does tabling it mean? "

I didnt get shafted for $500 though, mine was only $125...plus the 3 months wasted waiting for the deadline, then the public annoucement, then the meeting. Now Im tryiing to get it framed before snowfall. I was allowed 50% of the house or 800sqft. I remeasured my house and found additional sqft that was not on the citys records, appearently they cant read a tape measure. I got pretty close to the size I wanted just by double checking all their records.

After my meeting though I painted the existing structure a nice shade of green that I could only describe as seafoam mint. lol.

 

[must8657]

why does anybody need that much space, thats alot of building

really, does it matter if he needs or just wants that much space? if he can afford it, who cares what the reason is.

sorry, i read further and others have already address this comment.

 

[Mike in Ohio]

The best way to beat this is to throw the bums out at the next election. Sometimes this is hard to do however.
Good luck,
Mike

 

[fordcragar]

I had some contact with my favorite zoning guys several years ago, and found out (at least in my county) that if I put in another building it has to be at least 6 feet away from another structure.

They will let you put up a structure that is less than 200 sq ft without a permit, as long as meet all of their set back requirements.

 

[fireguy]

When dealing w/gov't people, remember that too many of them hate their job and their customers.

Call and ask your questions. If you do not like the answer, wait 15 minutes and call, speaking to someone else. If you get the answer you want, write down the persons name, rank and the time you spoke to them.

 

[fordcragar]

When dealing w/gov't people, remember that too many of them hate their job and their customers.

Call and ask your questions. If you do not like the answer, wait 15 minutes and call, speaking to someone else. If you get the answer you want, write down the persons name, rank and the time you spoke to them.

Exactly, most of the time it seems like no one is in charge; if you find someone that makes a decision, note their name as was mentioned.

 

[89MustangGX]

This may be an obvious question, but in two parts:

1) What exactly constitutes attached to the house? Could a few 2x4's tacked togther linking the house and garage count?

2) What does it take to change construction of your house after your addition is finished -- as in, take out some 2x4's?

Or is this just too rediculous an idea?

Adam

 

[DJDD]

This is why I will never live inside of a city/town/community for any reason. I have six acres on which I can build anything I want, whenever I want. What would possess a man (other than his wife) to live where building anything is so restrictive?

 

[KenBaker]

I had years of fighting with my County and did eventually get exactly what I wanted. I agree with those who say talk to different people. I had neighbors fight with me and it caused a lot of problems. I got a 30 foot easement reduced to 17 feet, which allowed me to build what I wanted. It took me 6 months to get it done. It had to be attached so we attached a piece of Fence to both the house and garage and they said that it could have been a single 2x4 attaching them as the laws were poorly written. Definately look into everything before you do anything that costs any more money, if there is not an appeal process hanging over your head. There was one (and only one) person who was decent to deal with and very knowledgable within the County System here that saved me a couple of times. Sometimes knowing the right question to ask is the hardest thing to figure out. I actually had one genius who came to my house and said that I could not build it because they had nothing to measure to see if it was within spec. (Isn't that what PLANS are for??) When this happened, my Go-To-Guy had just taken off for 3 or 4 weeks for Medical Leave so I found it easier to wait for him to return and he had it straightened out in a phone call or two. Also look into variances that have been granted in the past to see if you can wrap your situation around any of them. Good luck to you and hang in there. Using their own facts against them and with some negotiation may get you closer to what you want. Don't just accept that there is nothing that you can do. I also liked the idea to try the angle of insurance requirements for stored collectable vehicles.

 

[Costner]

This is why I will never live inside of a city/town/community for any reason. I have six acres on which I can build anything I want, whenever I want. What would possess a man (other than his wife) to live where building anything is so restrictive?

Sort of depends. Around my area, it isn't just a city thing - the entire county is zoned and requires building permits. The only areas that seem to not care are the counties that are out in the sticks where you could build a 25,000 sq ft building and nobody would notice.

However, sometimes people actually want to live in areas that restrict building. For instance I wouldn't want to live next door to a guy who builds a 40' tall polebarn in his back yard which would leave my back yard in the shade all day, and I wouldn't want to live next to someone who builds a dozen small buildings around his house as he assembles his cult compound either. Not everyone likes the same things, which is why we have these goofy laws in the first place.

Frankly, most (clearly not all) laws are written to protect homeowners, although it never feels that way when you are trying to find a way to build what you want.

In any case, I disagree with those who suggest people should keep calling back until they get the answer they want. A verbal answer is useless even if you have the name of the person who said it. The only solution is to get it in writing. Even a taped phone conversation is a waste of time since you need permission from the other party in order to tape the call in the first place, and in many (most) areas such recordings cannot be used as evidence in any official proceeding.

Get everything in writing - and never assume anything.

 

[CBR9Seadoo]

The best way to beat this is to throw the bums out at the next election. Sometimes this is hard to do however.
Good luck,
Mike

This is what I am going to try and do.

 

[CBR9Seadoo]

This may be an obvious question, but in two parts:

1) What exactly constitutes attached to the house? Could a few 2x4's tacked togther linking the house and garage count?

2) What does it take to change construction of your house after your addition is finished -- as in, take out some 2x4's?

Or is this just too rediculous an idea?

Adam

#1 - I actually was trying to get these answers out of them, but they haven't replied yet.


#2 - If my house was flip flopped, the breazyway (adding on) would be easy, but it just so happens that the person who built the house wasn't thinking too clearly.

 

[CBR9Seadoo]

Just for an update.


I have entered plans to build only what they will allow the difference between 1500 sqft and the size of my current building (300 sqft worth). I am also going to add a second level to get more usuable area. They never said anything about going up.