Grandfathering

[Al Bundy]

No neither one of my boys got anyone pregnant.

I'm sure this is different from location to location, but generally when is something like electric grandfathered so you don't need to upgrade to current codes? For example, I'm currently working on a 50 year old house that has no GFI's installed anywhere since they weren't required. I need to change the panel to a new one and I plan to install GFI's anyway since I think they're a good idea. But my question is in this case do I really have to? I'm not upgrading service nor am I adding any circuits. I'm basically changing an old part for a new one.

 

[Alchymist]

Depends on two things- work being done and what the AHJ wants, which differs in different localities.

 

[G_P]

Upgrading the panel may possibly require GFCI and AFCI breakers.

Sent via carrier pigeon.

 

[theoldwizard1]

You have to ask the local building inspector.

It would not surprise me if they require all breaker to meet current code AFCI. Then you can put GFCI outlets in the necessary locations and be covered on both !

 

[APEowner]

Not only is it location dependent it can also depend on the building usage. I was involved in a building project at a church were the addition was something like 500K and the the cost to upgrade the rest of the building, which, due to the addition was no longer grandfathered, was 250K.

 

[Kevin54]

Is the current wiring capable of handling a GFCI or AFCI? I know that in my parents house, when the electrician was there, he wired the kitchen all new and put in a couple GFCI's that were connected to a new subpanel. The wiring in the house did not have any grounds but the outlets were all changed to three prong. It had to be disclosed when I sold the house that the wiring was two or three wire WITHOUT Grounds. The subpanel and the kitchen wiring were properly done with a ground.

As far as how it was all done, I have no idea, but it was a licensed and qualified electrician that goes to classes annually for the latest on the new codes.

 

[CNGsaves]

Depends on local codes, especially if you are in city limits.

At minimum, I'd guess code would want GFCI outlets in laundry/bathrooms ("wet" locations), proper groundrods outside, and grounded water pipe.

 

[eljefino]

Not only is it location dependent it can also depend on the building usage. I was involved in a building project at a church were the addition was something like 500K and the the cost to upgrade the rest of the building, which, due to the addition was no longer grandfathered, was 250K.

This and grandfathering usually is only for single family dwellings. (As well, sometimes, as DIY wiring.)

Once you either rent out apartments, invite the public in (like a church), or do commercial stuff you may have to meet current codes and upgrade to future ones as well.

Here, one can DIY homeowner wiring but a service upgrade needs a permit-- with that permit could easiliy be strings attached.

 

[Alchymist]

Wellllll.....you all are just guessing - as I posted earlier, the AHJ has the final say. OP would do well to ask them.....

 

[1/2 Cup]

Out here the moment an older electrical installation or parts there of, is added to or altered it must be brought up to the current standards.

 

[Kevin54]

After seeing some of the stuff my dad did as far as wiring.....Oh hell, I'll just have to dig up some pics. At times, I am really surprised the house didn't go up in flames, or something blow up. And for what it is today, I don't think things would pass. For instance, they were on natural gas. When I was maybe 13, my dad hired to guys a few years older than me to dig a trench from the road to the house. This was for gas line. Black iron pipe, welded together. Back at that time it was legal to do and dad had to have a certified welder to do it. Today, all of that pipe is buried directly under the concrete drive, with a shutoff in the driveway under a lid. So that black iron has been buried for 44 years. I don't think it would be to code today.

I'll find a few pics of the wiring that was in their house.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Unless youre actually doing work in the room where you want to install the gfi's Id say most inspectors are not going to spend much time walking through the whole house making you recreate the wheel.
Now if the house is already tagged for code violations that could all go right out the window!
As far as the afci's it depends on how the existing house wiring is done,back in the day we would sometimes tie neutrals from multiple circuits together which would really complicate trying to install afci's.
If youre installing new circuits to certain areas of the house then they could force you to install afcis for those areas anyway.

 

[where2]

Back in 2010, when my wife and I did a bunch of upgrades including replacing windows upstairs, I needed a minor electrical permit to move some of the outlets when it became obvious that the wiring was where the new wider window would be. As a result, I now have interconnected smoke alarms and two AFCI breakers.

In my AHJ, pulling any electrical permit triggered the need to install the smoke alarms. The AFCI breakers were only required on the two circuits that were touched. I had to throw TR outlets on any outlet I touched as well.

As others have said multiple times, your AHJ is the only one who can tell you what they want to see. I had to return a box of standard Leviton Decora outlets and install TR's when the AHJ said they wanted to see TR's on any outlet I touched during my first in-progress inspection.

 

[TiredDude]

No neither one of my boys got anyone pregnant.

I'm sure this is different from location to location, but generally when is something like electric grandfathered so you don't need to upgrade to current codes? For example, I'm currently working on a 50 year old house that has no GFI's installed anywhere since they weren't required. I need to change the panel to a new one and I plan to install GFI's anyway since I think they're a good idea. But my question is in this case do I really have to? I'm not upgrading service nor am I adding any circuits. I'm basically changing an old part for a new one.

I just replaced my panel. Absolutely nothing had to be brought to current code. No GFCI, No AFCI, no fixing over stuffed conduit.

It may depend on location, but, it would be counter productive to require full code compliance when an upgrade is made to part of a system. It would discourage the improvements or would encourage un-inspected work, particularly since many old wire systems won't work with GFCI or AFCI, and those that do often require very expensive dual circuit units to work.

I would still add the GFI outlets if I were you.

 

[Al Bundy]

Thanks for all the responses guys. I realize that this is just guesswork for the most part. I was just looking for those with some experience in the matter.

I'm hesitant to call and ask any questions since I can't really afford to draw attention to the project. I'm not one of "those guys" that's just looking to cut corners and do things that aren't safe. But I have a pretty limited budget and I need this space ready to use as quickly as possible. Not to mention that I don't need the property taxes going up if the town finds out I'm making improvements. $4000/yr is ridiculous enough for a property that's only assessed for $95K.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Call anonymously!! U dont have to give em your address!

 

[Falcon67]

Around here you open it up it needs to be brought to current code. People here don't remodel ancient buildings from the 40's, 50s etc because once you start any decent reno all the current codes come into effect. Including ADA requirements such as elevators, ramps, etc. It can make reno of older buildings less attractive than knocking them down.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Call anonymously!! U dont have to give em your address!

Exactly

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Around here you open it up it needs to be brought to current code. People here don't remodel ancient buildings from the 40's, 50s etc because once you start any decent reno all the current codes come into effect. Including ADA requirements such as elevators, ramps, etc. It can make reno of older buildings less attractive than knocking them down.

New buildings/houses ****,old construction has charactor.

 

[Blue]

$4000/yr is ridiculous enough for a property that's only assessed for $95K.

Yikes. That is pretty spendy for a 95k house.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Thanks for all the responses guys. I realize that this is just guesswork for the most part. I was just looking for those with some experience in the matter.

I'm hesitant to call and ask any questions since I can't really afford to draw attention to the project. I'm not one of "those guys" that's just looking to cut corners and do things that aren't safe. But I have a pretty limited budget and I need this space ready to use as quickly as possible. Not to mention that I don't need the property taxes going up if the town finds out I'm making improvements. $4000/yr is ridiculous enough for a property that's only assessed for $95K.

Ouucchh

I thought property taxes were around 1% of property value...

 

[Al Bundy]

Ouucchh

I thought property taxes were around 1% of property value...

Property taxes and school taxes. Completely out of control in NYS. I may even be underestimating a bit. I just paid the school taxes, they were $2600. I haven't got the property tax bill, but I'm sure it will be at least $1400.

 

[dipper]

Welcome to New York State!

Yikes. That is pretty spendy for a 95k house.

 

[digdug18]

You say you're currently working on the house? I'm guessing your a general contractor or handyman? Is that correct?

Or do you own this house?

 

[Al Bundy]

I own the house. I'm just a DIYer. I prefer to do things on my own rather than hire someone. Most times I know enough to do the job correctly. When I don't the internet is a great place.

 

[egdede]

Ouucchh

I thought property taxes were around 1% of property value...

Google 'proposition 13 ca'

 

[rray37375]

But I have a pretty limited budget and I need this space ready to use as quickly as possible. Not to mention that I don't need the property taxes going up if the town finds out I'm making improvements. $4000/yr is ridiculous enough for a property that's only assessed for $95K.

Ouch! Makes me glad I live in Tennessee. The tax man values my house at $250K, taxes are only $1300/year. But I used to feel your pain. Before I moved here, I lived in Florida. My homeowner's insurance premium broken down into a monthly charge was more than my mortgage principal and interest payment!