Grave Stone / Marker Repairs - Advice

[Dennis Leigh Henry]

I was in South Bend, IN at the old City Cemetery this past weekend, to check up on the family graves. Some careless actor tipped over one of the more fragile / old ones from the Kindig side of my family, and if it were not for the second picture where the tombstone was obviously pulled from the ground, I'd say.. old adhesive between the top and base was to cause. The top part didn't hurt the base except where it is resting in the first picture. I went over to another part of the cemetery, and the small planter / pot was as it is in the third picture. (the center piece was upside down, so someone must have slammed it over on top of itself. I've been babying that one as I suspected (and confirmed) it was previously repaired. Now I need to replace it (Its for a 6 year old family member who's grave is otherwise unmarked from 1872 (143 years old and THIS?).

Anyone out there have any recommendation on how to fix the spired one and / or suggestions for a new planter / pot?

I'm calling the city to give them an earful tomorrow.. since the parks department is responsible for that particular cemetery (that is on the National Register). I was up there over the summer last year and did some maintenance then too.. so its not like they are not cared for... I'll find out if there was some sort of spree.. but in the mean time I'll need to repair the spire and probably replace the planter / pot. Anyone out there know much on how to repair the spire top / base? Advice??

Thanks..
Dennis

 

[Charles (in GA)]

I cannot offer any good suggestions on repairing the stone, sometimes Yankee ingenuity is the best suggestion, just make sure it is safe in the future from falling on someone.

I have seen some stones with short stubs of rebar potted into drilled holes in the stone to help locate and retain the pieces. Seek out some good cement epoxy for this.

I just wanted to commend you for being concerned over the condition of yours and others ancestors burial sites enough to want to get it repaired.

Charles

 

[Joe Reed]

I like Charles' idea of using pegs & epoxy to join the spire back onto its base.

As for the pot, it appears to be mostly pretty large pieces. Any chance of putting it back together with epoxy? Even if it's not perfect I think I'd prefer to have the old, original pot instead of a modern replacement.

 

[PugetDude]

http://www.emporia.edu/~delmottp/MonumentRepair.html

http://www.abatron.com/building-and-restoration-products/rockweld-55-27.html

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~inpcrp/repairtoolbox.html

 

[Dennis Leigh Henry]

Thanks for the suggestions all. I know its not a typical Garage Journal topic.. but thought I would see the ingenuity of those here..

I've seen both pros and cons on the web around *******. Some of the other monuments are pegged around ours (the pegs will rust as many of the monuments are limestone and fairly porous). Maybe some stainless or bronze/copper/brass..

I also see a lot on the web about different materials to bond the monument pieces.. from modern epoxies to the more traditional "glazing" putty like material with lead wedges / spacers.

I've looked at concrete replacement planters, so that's not too expensive.. but its longevity is ?? Certainly need to be replaced in less than 140 years. I'll do some web cruising tonight to see if I can find some more substantial materials like the limestone one it is replacing. I doubt gluing the old one together would be durable long term.

Thanks for the notes and thoughts..

Dennis

 

[jclem40c]

Contact a local funeral director who should have access to or know someone who sells and sets stones and markers for funeral homes. Unfortunately this is an all to common happening in cemeteries. The monument companies are equipped to do the repairs you need. I know this because I'm the president of our local cemetery association in my home town here in NY.

 

[wssix99]

+1 on contacting a monument company. They should have the structural skills to fix things.

If, after the repairs, things don't look right - you might reach out to a granite counter top company. Those installers are artists and can hide seams in counter tops amazingly well. I would think they could also make a cracked piece of stone look close to new if the monument company can't.

 

[kd3pc]

Some 3M 5200 Marine adhesive will work fine, is inexpensive and weather proof.

 

[CJM8515]

Gorilla glue. My cousin is a mason and when he has to glue back bricks, stones or fix problems thats what he uses. Its near impossible to ever get back off.

 

[Alan Douglas]

The only proper material for limestone or marble is lime mortar, chemically the same, won't block moisture.

If the pot has no drainage (or it was blocked) it probably filled with water and froze.

 

[Chris705]

I repaired a few of my families old stones and used caulk/adhesive meant for use in setting retaining wall masonry blocks. Also when I took the larger obelisk apart it has a rusted out rod in the middle of it like you mention.....I chose not to put a rod back in mostly due to not knowing how to get the old rusted one out while in the middle of a cemetery. Keeping water out of the seam is the trick cause water will freeze and lift/slide the upper portion over the years. I put the adhesive around the perimeter and let is squeeze out slightly when I lowered the upper section back in place. I used a tripod and come-along to do this work.

+1 on the flower pot getting water in it and freezing...we bag our pots for winter months and put an plastic pot inside (upside down) to shed snow and water till spring rolls around.

Good luck in your repair!

 

[kbs2244]

One of my boys is a mason and has repaired those cracked or broken gargoyles on building built in the 20's and 30's.
He uses the 3M 5200 Marine Adhesive.
If it is broken off he will often pin it with 1/4 inch SS rod or a SS bolt with the head cut off.
You drill the hole in one piece, put a short pin in that hole and fit the two pieces together so you get a mark on the other side of the break to start you second hole.
Lots of adhesive and squeeze tight.
He has used hose clamps, loops of clothesline and a tourniquet, anything that works.
Any squeezed out glue is dusted with sand and then scraped off when it is dry.

He does have a guy that can use an old one as a pattern and cast a new one using a more up-to-date material if the old one is too far gone.
He is somewhere in South East WI.

 

[burnedzr2]

That is pretty crappy to do that. I have seen it done before here in CT. dozens of stones broken off. These people have Zero respect.

 

[Dennis Leigh Henry]

Thanks again all.. Super suggestions and ideas and thoughts.

I'll be contacting a memorial supplier I used for my Uncle's burial there and get their advice and quote. The larger memorial that is toppled has been previously repaired, so I'm going to focus on the base to insure its solid and plumb/level.

My brothers and I are all capable (and come from a long line of building tradesmen) to tackle this. My father started in the building trades as a mason, and as kids helped him build several field stone patio / porches, pour concrete, lay brick (walls and sidewalks out of paving brick), etc. He helped me re-pour my front steps at my home in South Bend when my wife and I were first married. So..somewhat in my skillset (although I don't do it much anymore). We'll see what the repair expense might be vs DIY..

The pot had a drain and appears to have been made of limestone or similar porous stone. I've kept an eye on it for some time now (~7 years) since the passing of my uncle who kept an eye on it previously. The advice on keeping it covered for winter will be a practice I'll employ on its replacement. The marks on the exterior of the broken pot don't make it seem like it was broken due to frozen water, and the way the pieces were piled up (and the broken / remaining base piece was totally upside down) make me believe someone picked it up and smashed it or maybe hit it with a large mower. This same plot has some fairly large 24x24x36 individual granite stones, and I found one of those turned completely over on its face / markings one summer, and the corner / back was chipped pretty extensively. So, I'm guessing the grounds crew (City of SB Parks Department and maybe a contractor) are fairly rough on them I suspect.

I've contacted the city to see what they say, but hold no hope of a satisfactory explanation. At least they will be on notice that someone is watching their behavior.. so maybe that will help in the long run.

Dennis

 

[Kevin54]

The toppled one.......drill, rebar, and epoxy things together. The epoxy will hold, or even use something like a windshield sealer underneath between the two, and with rebar drilled into the base, plus the steeple part, the next time if will keep some crackhead from getting his jollies. Karma will catch up with him or them later.

As far as the broken planter......I would take the pieces, and using construction adhesive, put things back together. You could make a mold, using a box that is deep enough that it fits exactly half the planter/urn. Set the planter sideways in the box, making sure the opening in top of the planter is completely seal so nothing gets in. Fill the box then with Plaster of Paris. Now do this with the other side of the planter with another box, making sure that the other box is the same height, and tho opposite side of the planter is done the same way. Once you have two halves, you then have a mold for the outside.

For the inside, you need to heavily coat the inside of the broken planter with a liberal amount of Vaseline add a board with some "L" hooks for centering inside the opening, and fill it with Plaster of Paris. You now have a three piece mold to pour a new planter to the exact shape of the old one. In doing so you want to use a very good type of concrete or cement to pour your part.

Now on the other hand, once you put the busted planter back together, you can also speak with someone that makes headstone/markers and see if they cam replicate it fairly easy, or maybe go with something like a granite Urn. Also check to see if there is any sort of insurance to cover it through the cemetery.

On the other hand, and a brighter note......with a family by the name of Kindig.....any relation to Dave Kindig that is the custom car builder that owns Kindigit Designs, or maybe it's Kindigit Customs?

BTW......Maybe the ones out destroying the monuments in the cemetery will soon have a plot of their own!!!!! Karma WILL catch up with them

 

[Dennis Leigh Henry]

Thanks Kevin for the suggestions..

I've looked around the web a bit for replacement flower pots. I believe the one destroyed is limestone (maybe sandstone), so I'm sure I'll find something close, esp. being in limestone country here in central Indiana. Trying to figure out how to pay for it .. how much it'll cost, etc. There are a lot of China based suppliers, but I've not found anything yet close to me. There's got to be a stone carver around here doing this stuff .. The toppled one, again good suggestions.

I've dug back into some of my heritage because of this, and have found a few things out I didn't know about earlier. I'm wanting to make sure that whatever I do to replace the flower pot and the loved ones it represents, that are all properly identified as buried there, especially for those who may not be identified with an existing memorial.

On the Kindig side.. I have dug a bit there too, and it does appear my great grandmother Sarah was born in Coshocton, OH.. and that there are several Kindigs in Ohio. I'll have to see if I can connect the dots to Dave.. The toppled monument is for my great grandmother & father Amanda and Jesse, and another David Kindig.. so, who knows!

Dennis

 

[redmed]

I have always wondered how they engrave the lettering into the stone. Chisel, acid or some type of engraver machine? Never saw a crooked letter or bad spacing.

 

[Lippyp]

You think thats bad, over here a few years ago the health and safety nazis went round all the graveyards/churchyards and deliberately laid down any grave marker/stone they considered to be unsafe and either the church if it was an unvisited grave or the families had to foot the bill to get the set back up again. Most of these stones were perfectly safe and just leaning a bit and the others, well, they would probably only have fallen over if someone was doing something they shouldn't have been doing. They did it in the churchyard where our daughter is buried ****** jobsworths.

I'd suggest getting a proper stonemason/monumental mason in to sort it out properly and then it'll be good for years to come. The danger of trying to drill and peg it yourself is that you split it and then its toast.

 

[rkevins]

Dad and I have repaired a few in our local cemetery like the stone in picture #1 with F26 if you could get all the pieces from the vase you may be able to glue it back together and clamp it together with rubber bands until it sets up.

 

[toplessHO]

contact these guys at Lambert concrete products
I got an A B epoxy thats rated around 10K PSI used in DOT concrete and bridge repair.
you can use it as a filler too with mixing with dry builders sand.
Then you can do as others have suggested and dowel or pin it with the epoxy

●
Lambert Corporation
20 Coburn Ave
Orlando, FL
(407) 841-2940

 

[Chaznsc]

I've contacted the city to see what they say, but hold no hope of a satisfactory explanation. At least they will be on notice that someone is watching their behavior.. so maybe that will help in the long run.

Dennis

I doubt the city's "behavior" caused what I saw in the photos. What you have there is a complete disrespect for anything holy. The city is probably obligated to mow the grass and trim the trees. The plots are the responsibility of the family, within reason. There may also be a local historic society who could help spread awareness to the local PD. Or, maybe you could create a facebook page for the families of the cemetery. Looks like you have a real mess on your hands.

I hope whomever did this gets a good old fashioned case of hemorrhoids for being such a pain in the ***. If you find them, hang on till we can get there to run them thru a belt line and then take them on a snipe hunt!

Please post progress pictures. And I'd photo it really well before you begin.

 

[Dennis Leigh Henry]

Thanks Again for all the suggestions..

Lippyp, that's horrible. I don't believe I've ever been in a cemetery that was outright dangerous to the level of taking this sort of action.. The cemetery of the OP is the oldest official one in South Bend, IN, opened roughly 1836.. and have many monuments that would require "laying down".

On the City of South Bend update, I was contacted by email by the person responsible in the Parks Dept about the damage, apparently this happened in an episode of vandalism in the late summer last year. Numerous graves were vandalized. Some were repaired by the city, but they're out of funds now. He did inform me that there is a grant / request process going on now (didn't provide details) that will dump significant money into the cemetery and take the advice of a set of recommendations for preservation and beautification. For example, there are 4 homes directly in front of the entrance street, and for the most part are fairly seedy. I'm hoping that element takes place immediately (they are razed, as that would open up the visibility to the entrance for police to patrol fairly easily in their routine). Anyway, good to see they're doing something about it, albeit slowly...

 

[sixty4]

I have always wondered how they engrave the lettering into the stone. Chisel, acid or some type of engraver machine? Never saw a crooked letter or bad spacing.

Funny you mention this. When I was a kid the guy across the street used to do this sort of work. Every once in awhile he would screw up. My grandfather used to take the stones and use these asl fill. Years ago after my grandfather passed my mother sold off a section of the property, yup guess what they found the botched up headstones. Man did that freak the builder and new owner out. LOL.

 

[Lippyp]

My wifes late grandfather was a jobbing builder, he put a new window opening into an old building for someone and to match the existing windows it needed a stone surround. The owners were a little shocked to find him cutting up an old gravestone to use as this liner, he did promise though to put the writing against the wall where it couldn't be seen! Turns out this was from a graveyard that was no longer in use and had been cleared of remains for re-development and the headstones scrapped.

 

[gerryw]

I work in a cemetery, the rod and epoxy method is the correct way to do it.(thats how some new monuments are assembled)
A hammer drill and a concrete bit will work fine, be careful and start off in drill only mode, then to hammer drill if needed.
Use pennys or thick solder to level,insert medium in one corner, rock top and do other corner and so on BE CAREFUL!! In my opinion that was vandalism, the base of monument has not moved, looks like it was toppled by a deliberate push.

The vase looks too far gone, sorry.
Yes laying down a monument is very common, a young child was killed by a toppling monument in Quebec several years ago.
If a monument is tipping we lay it down and recap the foundation ( take the concrete down a foot or so and "recap" it with new concrete.

On a monument the inscriptions are done by sandblasting ( a rubber template it adhered to monument then blasted, then template removed( thats why its perfect)

Really old monuments have lead lettering attached my pins

Gerry

 

[Dennis Leigh Henry]

I work in a cemetery, the rod and epoxy method is the correct way to do it.(thats how some new monuments are assembled)
A hammer drill and a concrete bit will work fine, be careful and start off in drill only mode, then to hammer drill if needed.
Use pennys or thick solder to level,insert medium in one corner, rock top and do other corner and so on BE CAREFUL!! In my opinion that was vandalism, the base of monument has not moved, looks like it was toppled by a deliberate push.

The vase looks too far gone, sorry.
Yes laying down a monument is very common, a young child was killed by a toppling monument in Quebec several years ago.
If a monument is tipping we lay it down and recap the foundation ( take the concrete down a foot or so and "recap" it with new concrete.

On a monument the inscriptions are done by sandblasting ( a rubber template it adhered to monument then blasted, then template removed( thats why its perfect)

Really old monuments have lead lettering attached my pins

Gerry

Great advice Gerry!

 

[Dennis Leigh Henry]

We (my son, wife, and I)replaced the flower pot with a concrete version, doesn't look too bad. Long term durability is suspect.. Previous was 140 years old prior to the damage. Will try to Gorilla Glue the old one (or something appropriate for limestone).

We (my son and I) sat the fallen and repositioned top down on some 4x4s and cleaned the end .. ready for our next trip to get it back where it belongs with a new SS pin and some appropriate glue/putty..

 

[fatboy99]

Find out what township the cemetery is in and call the trusty and see if they have the funds to help with the repairs. There was a story in the local paper about a couple of trusty's that got in trouble for not taking care of the ones in there area.

 

[justanengineer]

Glad to see youre getting the work done Dennis, makes me proud to see that folks still care about these things. Sad as it is I'm not shocked by what folks do anymore, I attend a ton of auctions and antique/flea sales every year and have seen a ton of ironwork and statues that were once in a cemetery. Folks simply dont give a dam for respect or the law anymore, if its not monitored it must be "free" for them to steal and resell. Old iron grave markers seem especially popular with women today for parking in their garden alongside a dam plastic gnome.

 

[Shadowdog500]

I have always wondered how they engrave the lettering into the stone. Chisel, acid or some type of engraver machine? Never saw a crooked letter or bad spacing.

A friends father carved monuments for his entire career until he died from breathing all the sand. What really sucked was that he got ill and died from carving tombstones his entire career, and the monument company he worked for his entire career dumped him and dropped his insurance once they realised he was too sick to ever come back to work. Karma kicked in ant they went belly up a few years after my friends father died.

Some are hand carved like this one.

And most are sandblasted like this one.

Chris

 

[gerryw]

We (my son, wife, and I)replaced the flower pot with a concrete version, doesn't look too bad. Long term durability is suspect.. Previous was 140 years old prior to the damage. Will try to Gorilla Glue the old one (or something appropriate for limestone).

We (my son and I) sat the fallen and repositioned top down on some 4x4s and cleaned the end .. ready for our next trip to get it back where it belongs with a new SS pin and some appropriate glue/putty..

Nice work!!!

 

[Dennis Leigh Henry]

Glad to see youre getting the work done Dennis, makes me proud to see that folks still care about these things. Sad as it is I'm not shocked by what folks do anymore, I attend a ton of auctions and antique/flea sales every year and have seen a ton of ironwork and statues that were once in a cemetery. Folks simply dont give a dam for respect or the law anymore, if its not monitored it must be "free" for them to steal and resell. Old iron grave markers seem especially popular with women today for parking in their garden alongside a dam plastic gnome.

They'll get their karma in the end. The older toppled monument must have had an urn / flow pot on it, as the top is capped with a "radius button" of some masonry material. Not sure if it was snatched or ?? Might have been a cross or heck who knows. Anyway, it's gone forever.

These are my ancestors, so I feel a personal responsibility for them, and am teaching my son and family this value as well.

Thanks for the compliment..

Dennis

 

[Dennis Leigh Henry]

A friends father carved monuments for his entire career until he died from breathing all the sand. What really sucked was that he got ill and died from carving tombstones his entire career, and the monument company he worked for his entire career dumped him and dropped his insurance once they realised he was too sick to ever come back to work. Karma kicked in ant they went belly up a few years after my friends father died.

Some are hand carved like this one.

And most are sandblasted like this one.

Chris

Sorry to hear about your friend's misfortune.. The posted youtubes are cool.. The hand chiseled is true craftsmanship.. he makes it look so easy...

Thanks for sharing.. Dennis

 

[Dennis Leigh Henry]

Nice work!!!

Thank You...

 

[Heavymetalmechanic]

I'm sorry that you had to deal with this, but glad to see how you are handling it. I am a bit late to offer advice but the stainless rod/peg was all I would have been able to suggest.

 

[Dennis Leigh Henry]

Update.. went to South Bend City Cemetery this past weekend with my son. This cemetery is maintained by the Parks Department of the City of South Bend, IN - who just celebrated their 150th year as a city, and this cemetery was a jewel in their celebration because of the pioneer families buried there including many of mine...

The first three pictures are of the main Henry plot, where what I assume is damage to the monument for John Pool, my great uncle. It was apparently hit by something (grounds crew / mowers?) and turned on its face and then shoved back into its "location" without being up righted. This is the second time in 5 years I've found these monuments disturbed like this. The fourth picture is of the Kindig monument I chronicled above, it was on the 4x4s but was knocked off, presumably by the grounds crew / mowers.. The fifth picture is in the same plot, one that had been pulled out and thrown down that I replaced on Easter, and now appears to have been hit again by mowers. The sixth and by far the most offensive, is one example of many flags that were strewn all over the place, many of which were mowed up / over. Apparently, the graves of veterans (many are civil war, as in my family's case) are decorated with small flags on holidays. My son and I picked up as many as we could carry in our hands. Trash was also strewn everywhere, some of it indicative of ground keepers not being expected to pick up this trash before or during mowing.. I guess I had better get off my **** and get the Kindig monument off the 4x4 before someone crashes it into two pieces (remember the flower pot that was destroyed by "vandalism" above, I'm now doubting that story with these recent observations).

I contacted the Mayor of South Bend via email, I suspect he didn't even read it and was passed along by an admin who passed it to the dept head of parks, who passed it along to one of his superintendents who is also this cemetery's sextant. He apologized and said he would speak to the grounds crew.. But he sounded very disappointed in the City's low priority for this cemetery... I'm going to try to SPEAK to the mayor again, but if I don't get thru, I'm going to go to the South Bend Tribune (who might spread the word to local TV).. I suspect mowed up flags would be a front page article for at least the local section of the paper...

 

[Dennis Leigh Henry]

Update..

With a family crew and the help of the GJ (especially around the recommendation to use 3M Marine 5200), we made the repairs yesterday.

Thanks to all..
Dennis

 

[wssix99]

A+++

 

[countryroad82]

Sounds like the grounds crew have some idiots running the mowers that are too $&@-ing lazy to get off the mower and swing a weed eater. It's careless morons like that that can destroy things that have/could survive centuries if it weren't for their ignorance. Good job on the repairs though!!!

 

[Dennis Leigh Henry]

Thanks Wssix99 and Countryroad82,

We took a spin to see the other graves and it appears that someone has taken a closer look a the mowing job, as there wasn't as much purely damaged and misplaced stuff as before. I did find another flag on a stick that I picked up and will give to the American Legion to dispose of properly..

Hope the city's focus on this non sense helps out long term. We did notice several large (100yr +) trees marked for removal.. Maybe they're serious about the master plan...