Ground hog day on flooring..... Sorry.

[Fireguy21]

I want to start out by saying, yes this thread has probably been beaten to death on here. And I may get some bashing for this, but please here me out. I have read a lot of threads regarding concrete sealers and epoxy floors. I am stumped and maybe a little overwhelmed. And since the floor is 2400 sf I'm thinking it's going to be spendy to fix, and someone cut down my money tree.. LOL Here's my story:
I finally get to build my new building it's 40x60 w/ 14' sidewalls. Three 12x12 overhead doors on the 60' side. (I have been taking pics and will post later) Needless to say I AM pumped!! She is finally going up! I've been getting alot of good ideas from here on how to finish it off inside. And I can't wait to get some concrete in it!!

Well here comes my issue. I hired a contractor to do the floor since I have never worked with concrete and it's a good size floor. I wanted a 34' cast iron trench drain about 4' in from the doors, footings for a loft area, 5' apron...etc. I am a DIY'er... But also a little of a perfectionist. And I was sure I would screw something up. The pour was going to be 4" thick at 4500psi with air entrainement. (sorry not sure with what % of air)
The day of the pour it was in the 90's and humid. There was a crew of 6 guys and myself... The first of four trucks arrived at noon. With a few hickups during the pour, which I don't want to get side tracked on with now, It was time for the final trowel. He began power trowelling at about 4pm after about a couple minutes he started spraying water down as he was trowelling. I didn't think nothing of it. Like I said I had never worked with concrete before, but I knew there was water mixed in it. So no big deal... Right? Well then chuncks of the floor started to rip out and pop out. Once he stopped there were about a couple dozen repair patches that needed to be done and you can see where it wants to spall or flake off. There are areas that look like little divets throughout the floor. It could almost make a grown man want to cry watching a 12k floor flake off!
Well I am not going to cry because I don't want to add anymore water to the mix. Sorry. LOL
All the big ripped out areas have been patched but there is still a few places the floor still continues to chip away. And where rocks want to poke up.

So what I am looking for is something to stop the flaking away (spalling or scalling). To seal it so road salt from cars/trucks don't destroy it more. And to cover the sight of the patches.

This is going to be the get away mancave and I do run a Lawn Maint. Co. so there will be some wrenching on equipment, bobcats, pallets pulled around, plow trucks loaded with salt in the winter...etc.

Thank you for taking the time to read , I hope with the great knowledge and past experiences on this site I get some great advise.

Thanks!
Jon

 

[spclk]

If I had paid someone for a new slab and it looked like yours, I would have cried too.

I hope somebody chimes in, I'm dying to know what happened here.

 

[moserjj]

That is very unacceptable. If it were mine, they'd be ripping out and doing it again properly

 

[coal_man]

That is very unacceptable. If it were mine, they'd be ripping out and doing it again properly

Unfortunately, I had the same problem when I had my garage floor poured several years ago, but it didn't start spalling until a few years ago. It always seemed to be dustier than normal. I think mine was caused by over power trowelling the surface. I've since chipped up all the areas that the very thin upper layer of concrete that seemed "loose", rented a floor grinder to clean the remaining surface, and applied a densifier to the surface. It has seemed to help with the dust, but the surface still bears the pitted areas. I don't know if you can get a patch material that won't peel up. You may try to contact one of the site sponsors. They seem to always give some good honest advice.

I'd sure be wanting the contractor to take care of the problem since you've found it directly after they finished.

coal_man

 

[AETD]

That is very unacceptable. If it were mine, they'd be ripping out and doing it again properly

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Do not attempt to apply a coating to this substrate. It's integrity is suspect.

When we encounter a floor like this, typically in town-homes, we grind through the cream until we reach good material, apply a self-leveling epoxy coating (special material) and then apply our HD or SD coatings, urethane, etc...

This may be an option for you but applying direct to your floor would be a potential problem.

 

[jhelrey]

Ask for a $1,000 refund and use it. I know how we landscapes/lawn guys can be with dropping shovels, dropping skid buckets, etc. plow blades in the winter, etc. It's going to get damaged. Take the $ and run. Just don't get mad when a guy does chip it on accident.

 

[ConCretin]

I suspect the problem originated with the air entrained concrete, which should never be used with a hard troweled finish. The problem was likely made worse by the 90 degree weather.

The surface of the floor sets quickly in the warm weather so the finishers get on it before the bleed water and air can make their way to the surface. The air and water pool under the surface creating a void that separates the top 1/8-1/4" of concrete from the underlying slab i.e. de lamination.

You can determine the extent of the problem by dragging a chain across the surface. You'll hear a distinct change in pitch when the chain crosses delaminated areas.

There is no good fix for this. We've used epoxy to build the surface back up after removing the bad concrete for parking decks that were getting a traffic bearing waterproofing. Maybe you could do the same for garage by using an epoxy floor. Just make sure you find and remove ALL the delaminated surface.

Not sure who specified the air entrained concrete but your finisher is on the hook for all or part of this.

 

[Fireguy21]

Thanks LLWillysfan, I didn't think about the chain test. I will do that in the morning. I have been leaning towards the idea of renting a diamond grinder. Go over the entire floor to attempt to take off all the delamination areas and applying either a Legacy product or epoxy coat product. Although applying an epoxy coating will only address two out of the three of my main concerns. Which is covering up all the patch areas and sealing it so salt will not compromise it anymore.
The other hickups that accured are more of a structural in nature. But not sure how much??
#1 Is they ran out of rebar. So there is a section that rebar does not tie one side of the trench drain to the other.
#2 The third truck waited out on the street for 20 mins before it was able to unload then they had 17.3 gallons of water added to it after about 1/4 of it was unloaded. They were yelling they wanted it wetter...
#3 This is a pole building. When the forms were pulled infront of the overhead doors. The concrete was only 1.5" thick in places. It appeared the sub base was kicked up during the pour. Not sure if this is how you fix this problem. But they buttered some under it as they poured the apron then jammed the expansion joint in place to hold it there.

I should mention that I am still with holding 60% of the money to be paid. Until I figure out a solution that I can live with. The contractor assures me I will not have any problems. I think he is worried he will not be paid anymore money. What do you think??

Thanks!
Jon

 

[VANAMAL]

Bummer id get it straightened out before i paid too. 3.5" should be the min thickness. If they couldnt handle it in one pour they should have done it in two! To much water will effect the integrity of the crete too thats why they do a slump test. If there was a building permit id ask the building inspector if not id ask a couple of reputable concrete contractors for their opinion. You can have a core drilled and have it tested too. Get estimates to have it repaired and deduct that from the balance. Make sure the material supplier got paid so theres no lien

 

[ConCretin]

I'm not sure a diamond grinder is the way to go. The delaminated surface might stay in place while the grinder passes over it. We've had better luck with mechanical means such as scabblers or scarifiers.

The problem is, you'll be left with rough areas that are 1/8" or more low. You could level it with an epoxy filler and then go over the entire floor to create a uniform appearance. This would be a permanent repair but it would be costly.

What did you use for a vapor barrier? The kicked up sub grade at the entry leads me to believe you don't have one that is properly installed. You'll want a good one if you go this route.

The de lamination and the other 'problems' on pour day raise concerns about the overall competence of your contractor. Leaving out rebar and jamming some concrete into a void under your slab are bush league.

I'd be leery of spending thousands on an epoxy surface over a suspect slab. To be honest, I think I'd build a case and keep the guys money (as was mentioned, you'll have to pay for the materials). I'd remove the delaminated concrete, repair it with quality cementitious product, and see how the slab holds up. It won't look great but it will be serviceable.

Sorry you didn't get what you expected. It's a lousy situation.

 

[Fireguy21]

Well I performed the chain test on the floor. Unfortunately I found a dozen or so areas that sounded hollow. After giving it a couple taps with the hook of the chain it started to crumble. The areas that de laminated ranging from 4"x4" to 12"x12". I did contact a couple rental places, one does have a machine that I can put some scarifier pads/ bits in. Looks like I will be playing the waiting game. I'm thinking I should wait atleast 28 days before I start getting to work on this floor.

I am anxious to get this floor done. I don't want to bring everything in, just to remove it later to do the floor. Plus, here in Minnesota winter is going to creep up fast!

Do you think the de laminated spot can be scraped up and patched now? Or is it better to wait on them as well?

And to answer the question about who decided air entrained concrete. That was the contractor. I just told him what I will be using the shop for and what I will be parking in it. He came up with the specs.

I typically research everything that I do, buy or hire out. My wife usually gets very frustrated with me because of this. It is a lousy situation. In all this has been a great learning experience. I need to continue to do my diligent research.

Thanks!
Jon

 

[Fireguy21]

Oh, I also vacuumed out the water in the drain to check it out... Here is what the bottom looks like.

Why am I not surprised???

Thanks!
Jon

 

[jhelrey]

At this point, I would make them redo it and to make sure it is all at least 4 inches thick. You have him by the balls with 60% in your hands still.

I didn't realize it was this bad.

 

[ConCretin]

The de lamination occurred during the finishing process and will not get any worse so there's no need to wait to start repairs.

If your contractor spec'd the air entrained concrete, there is no doubt that he owns the problem. It's well established that air entrained concrete should not be used for interior steel troweled slabs.

Air entrained concrete is designed to resist freeze/thaw conditions on exterior slabs, which typically receive a broom finish.

I wouldn't pay him another dime.

 

[Fireguy21]

So if I patch the areas of delamination. Would you recommend to use a diamond grinder or scarifier to prep the entire floor to epoxy? Or would that rip the patches out?

Thanks
Jon

 

[raddksn]

At this point, I would make them redo it and to make sure it is all at least 4 inches thick. You have him by the balls with 60% in your hands still.

I didn't realize it was this bad.

$12.000 for this? have him rip it OUT and do it RIGHT

 

[slickgt1]

Wow, why are you even trying to fix this. This is ********. It has to get redone.

 

[ford33]

Why are you accepting this situation? You paid for expert advice and for work performed to acceptable standards and received neither. The contractor should remove the slab and start again. Just my 2 cents.

 

[ConCretin]

I have to agree with recent posters. Before you start repairs on your own, hold your contractor accountable to the extent you can. If you're holding 60%, he's probably covered his labor cost and may bail on you but no harm in trying.

You shouldn't have to accept a defective slab because this guy doesn't know what the hell he's doing. Your slab can be salvaged but it's going to require some work and money. It shouldn't be your's.

 

[Fireguy21]

I agree. I have spoken with the contractor and we are pretty much at a stailmate. He wants more $$ before he does any repairs. I have been documenting everything.. At this point time is not on my side,and frankly I really do not trust or want him to do anymore. It has been a nightmare since the first truck arrived and backed into the building...
Also, We have sold our other house which I run my business out of. I need to get my stuff out and into this new shop. Wow have I accumulated a lot of stuff in 10 years.

Thanks!
Jon

 

[Thruxton]

Jon, one thing I would add after reading this thread and your last post- slow down! It looks like you have a lot of things making you want to get it all done quickly, but I think you need to step back, take a deep breath, and think through what it will take to do it right. Time will again be on your side after that.