Ground or no ground on the house

[Falcon67]

Ground or no ground on the house - fixed now

Only the installing wiredresser knows for sure. Thread start to document the findings on the house we're buying. First up is pics of service - kinda poor since I only had the cell with me. Panel is nicely done, for sure. We're hoping for a closing date this week, then we can get the poco out to have a good look-see.

 

[ishiboo]

Only the installing wiredresser knows for sure. Thread start to document the findings on the house we're buying. First up is pics of service - kinda poor since I only had the cell with me. Panel is nicely done, for sure. We're hoping for a closing date this week, then we can get the poco out to have a good look-see.

Interesting. Definitely a very CLEAN panel, I think probably too much time was spent and I can't say I've ever seen a professionally wired panels organized with wire ties

Either an amateur install, or it's grounded through the service conduit and the actual ground enters the meter pan... which probably isn't legal, but is functional.

I've never installed a Homeline new, though I have put breakers in many... can you see if the neutral/ground busses are tied?

 

[Falcon67]

The light washed it out in the picture, but yes the neutral and ground buses are connected by a bar at the bottom under the breakers. It's lost in the glare of pic #2. This panel was put in when the house was built in 2001, so I'm sure it was a pro install. However, I didn't see a company sticker on it. I need to remember to call city hall tomorrow and ask if they have a record of the builder. Need paint info if I can get it. If there was an inspect, they would have a record. Inspections have been very spotty here over the years as there is no resident inspector.

 

[MrMark]

That is an excellent job. Best I've seen for a commercial job.

The wire ties are a great idea and needed on MWB by current 2008 code but it doesn't look like that's why they were done. They were just used to keep it tidy.

It is missing the bushing though. There should be an anti-chafe bushing around where the feeders come in in the back. No biggie though.

 

[Norcal]

The panel is a ITE/Siemens & it has a split neutral, which makes it EZ to have a neutral connection close to load connection of the breaker, the pic obscures the bottom of the panel where the tie bar would normally be factory installed. Is the grounding electrode connected @ the meter can? Not allowed in PG&E territory but is alllowed by some PoCo's.

 

[Falcon67]

Is the grounding electrode connected @ the meter can? Not allowed in PG&E territory but is allowed by some PoCo's.

It may be - we'll see when we get them out here. Our old house was like that when we bought it, but at that time it had 4 Federal Pacific boxes hung on the side of the house. That was a mess. I can tell you that I see no obvious ground rod or solid copper wire anywhere around the meter can. The engineer wants to cut the house off at the transformer to make sure everything incoming is AOK. We also need to re-mount the meter can as something is pulling it off the bricks outside.

STILL waiting on clearance from the bank to take over this repo. Supposed to get the word yesterday, nothing yet. Patience young Skywalker...

 

[6768rogues]

I have property in two utility's territories. One requires the ground at the panel and the other requires it at the meter channel.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

The panel is a ITE/Siemens & it has a split neutral, which makes it EZ to have a neutral connection close to load connection of the breaker, the pic obscures the bottom of the panel where the tie bar would normally be factory installed. Is the grounding electrode connected @ the meter can? Not allowed in PG&E territory but is alllowed by some PoCo's.

That is the same panel I have in my shop. The one in the pic does have the tie buss between the neutral and ground, its difficult to see but crosses over from one screw head to another at the bottom of the neutral and ground bars, it is turned flat to the side of the bottom most breakers.

Only issue I have is the number of romex runs in each of the cable clamps. They are large clamps and have several runs each, not sure what the clamps would be approved for however.

Charles

 

[79firebird]

i my self would swap some brakers around for dome smaller ones to makr room for more add ons like more power to s hop later no but i like how they made it nice and clean

 

[cowboyjosh]

i my self would swap some brakers around for dome smaller ones to makr room for more add ons like more power to s hop later no but i like how they made it nice and clean

cannot do that, your limited to how many circuits you can have by the NEC. He'd probably have to do a sub panel to keep it to code. Its better IMO to have a sub panel then to have a main panel with tandems

 

[MrMark]

That is the same panel I have in my shop. The one in the pic does have the tie buss between the neutral and ground, its difficult to see but crosses over from one screw head to another at the bottom of the neutral and ground bars, it is turned flat to the side of the bottom most breakers.

Only issue I have is the number of romex runs in each of the cable clamps. They are large clamps and have several runs each, not sure what the clamps would be approved for however.

Charles

Good catch. That is almost certainly not allowed. I have not seen clamps listed for so many 12/2 cables like that. Most are two max.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

i my self would swap some brakers around for dome smaller ones to makr room for more add ons like more power to s hop later no but i like how they made it nice and clean

As already noted, that is a 40/40 panel, meaning it is designed for 40 circuit breakers and 40 circuits, and is not UL certified for more than that.

Had it been a 30/40 panel, it would have been designed to accept ten of the duplex breakers to up the circuit count to 40.

Only certain stabs in the panel are designed to accept the duplex breakers, this panel will not accept any duplex breakers.

Charles

 

[Falcon67]

i my self would swap some brakers around for dome smaller ones to makr room for more add ons like more power to s hop later no but i like how they made it nice and clean

Shop feed goes outside the house, will be tapped off the meter can. I'm not going to mess with the house panel. There are a whole bunch of small light/plug circuits there that could be combined, but why bother. There is even a switch in each bath that does "nothing" - I assume that's for a bath heater element that isn't installed in the existing bath vent fans. The extent of electrical rework on this house will be tossing the almond switches and outlets for white. I hate almond. And I will add another outlet in the master bath - WTF is it that builders make these big master baths and put one outlet on one end of a double sink vanity 6' long. They must all be single men.

That alone will be a ***** - the master ceiling is vaulted and the plate on the bath wall is about 2' deep in blown insulation on the back side of the vault. This is where those extension cords mudded into the sheet rock come from.

I will be re-pulling all the cable TV junk. There's 60' of RG-6 wrapped around the outside. Ugh.

I've rewired more than a couple of old houses - the idea here is that buying a nice house lets me tinker in the garage during leisure time, not tinker on an old house. When our existing old house sells, I'd like to think the next old house I look at will be on TV.

Only worried about the ground here. Poco says they will come out when we take possession and will do what's necessary to get 'er done. They'll even supply the rod if required.

 

[916matt]

Interesting. Definitely a very CLEAN panel, I think probably too much time was spent and I can't say I've ever seen a professionally wired panels organized with wire ties

Either an amateur install, or it's grounded through the service conduit and the actual ground enters the meter pan... which probably isn't legal, but is functional.

I've never installed a Homeline new, though I have put breakers in many... can you see if the neutral/ground busses are tied?

every panel i make up gets zip ties. when you dont use em your panel looks like ****. its all about taking some pride in your work. but it seems that more and more apprentices coming up have the attitude of 'its hidden, who cares what it looks like'

 

[cowboyjosh]

every panel i make up gets zip ties. when you dont use em your panel looks like ****. its all about taking some pride in your work. but it seems that more and more apprentices coming up have the attitude of 'its hidden, who cares what it looks like'

Im serious as a heart attack and your not going to believe it, but some local municipalities will positively NOT allow a panel to be dressed with zip ties; I've had panels fail final because we zip tied the panel, so we now just neatly dress the wire w/o zip ties or anything else. Personally though I think a zip tied panel looks spiffy.

 

[Norcal]

If one is using solid wire, there is really no need to Ty-Wrap the conductors.

 

[916matt]

If one is using solid wire, there is really no need to Ty-Wrap the conductors.

agreed. however when i was in commercial there were only a few jobs that spec'd solid. and now that i only do industrial, you hardly ever see solid conductors

 

[916matt]

to the OP, sorry for thread jacking. congrats on the house

 

[Underdog]

Im serious as a heart attack and your not going to believe it, but some local municipalities will positively NOT allow a panel to be dressed with zip ties; I've had panels fail final because we zip tied the panel, so we now just neatly dress the wire w/o zip ties or anything else. Personally though I think a zip tied panel looks spiffy.

This may have to due to wire heating, Bundel wires have no free air movement, hence they operate at a higher temperature, Think I read it somewhere?

 

[Grumpy365]

Im serious as a heart attack and your not going to believe it, but some local municipalities will positively NOT allow a panel to be dressed with zip ties; I've had panels fail final because we zip tied the panel, so we now just neatly dress the wire w/o zip ties or anything else. Personally though I think a zip tied panel looks spiffy.

I would have to question that and require the inspector to site the code.

 

[Norcal]

Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboyjosh
Im serious as a heart attack and your not going to believe it, but some local municipalities will positively NOT allow a panel to be dressed with zip ties; I've had panels fail final because we zip tied the panel, so we now just neatly dress the wire w/o zip ties or anything else. Personally though I think a zip tied panel looks spiffy.

I would have to question that and require the inspector to site the code.

In a residential panel it really is not a issue IMO, but it is a issue if the NEC is followed as over 24" is considered bundling.


The 1st part is just my opinion....

 

[Falcon67]

Update - The house is now ours. We're painting and learning some things as we go.

Small bath - vanity light are not connected to safety ground.

There is a 12-3 cable in the attic going nowhere, turns out it's cold - good thing. But it's pulled into the service entrance - where there are no breakers or spaces for it. Um, OK.

In the master bath, power comes into the light switch, jumps to the vanity light, then to the GFCI and then to an outside outlet.

- The outside outlet was not connected to the load side of the GFCI.

- And the best move, they used a 12-2 as a double power feed - hot on both black and white - from the light switch box to feed the light and GFCI. To switch the light, they used the safety ground as the return leg from the vanity light (white from light to copper). Nice work. The vanity light is in the closet and the breaker is off until I figger out how to fix that mess. If the romex is not stapled close to the switch box (it isn't for the GFCI) I may be able to pull a couple of cables up to the light. Otherwise, I'll have to come in from the top of the wall. !@#$%$#.

Thought I bought a house I wouldn't have to re-wire

 

[MrMark]

I'll come fix it for you, that is small potatoes compared to some real wiring screw-ups.

 

[Falcon67]

I'll come fix it for you, that is small potatoes compared to some real wiring screw-ups.

A generous offer sir. Yes, things could be mucho worse-o.

 

[Falcon67]

Fixed now - utility remounted meter can and they put on a nice 100A Square D box for the well power and shop feeder. Plus two 8' copper clad ground rods 6' apart and tied it all in with a #4 ground cable (not shown).

Oh - and that bath thing. I fixed that easy. Then, decided that while everything was a mess anyway I'd just put in a new outlet by the other sink. I mean really - a 6' double vanity with one plug? Who does that. I measure a spot to make the outlet symmetrical to the sink faucet and cut a hole. Guess what I find...

The electrician thought there ought to be two plugs, but the drywall people maybe thought not. Nice. Live too. Been like that for 10 years, it can be there a while longer.

 

[abnorm]

""Guess what I find...""

I can't SEE what you found ?

I would NEVER be allowed "here" to double tap the meter base with that small gauge wires....

 

[Grumpy365]

""Guess what I find...""



I would NEVER be allowed "here" to double tap the meter base with that small gauge wires....

Class time.

Please educate me.

it looks like they are bringing aluminum to the top of the meter, and coming out in smaller copper wiring.

IF the copper wire is sized to the main breaker is sized appropriately for the main and the wire to that little panel in the pic is sized appropriately to those breaker, why does it matter if it is smaller than the wire brought in the top?


(I am seriously not trying to be a smart ***, i just want to learn)

 

[Falcon67]

""Guess what I find...""

I can't SEE what you found ?

I would NEVER be allowed "here" to double tap the meter base with that small gauge wires....

Note that the utility engineer did the install, not me or a hired gun. So I guess that means it's allowed.

It's aluminum coming in from the pole underground
2/0 copper into the house - 200A main in the house.
#4 to the SqD box.

What I found - I found an outlet box in the wall, already wired.

 

[walrus]

I would NEVER be allowed "here" to double tap the meter base with that small gauge wires....

Not sure but you might want to check tap rules, its possible that you can do what was done

 

[Falcon67]

Not sure but you might want to check tap rules, its possible that you can do what was done

This'll make 'em choke - the house we have now house is triple taped. AEP checked it out and buttoned it up. Before you choke, it was quintuple tapped at one time - really, 5 boxes.

 

[cowboyjosh]

I would have to question that and require the inspector to site the code.

I asked the AHJ today when they were out inspecting a basement finish in regard to zip ting the panel; and it is considered bundling the wires if they are zip tied within the panel, it is not allowed in any panel, residential or commercial. I learned that dressing a panel with zip ties varies from one AHJ to the next in Colorado. Our local municipality is probably one of the most difficult and particular in Colorado and the inspectors are all first class pricks, they don't like being questioned about anything, and even asking about dressing a panel he got somewhat annoyed, which I don't mind; because a part of me enjoys unintentionally ******* inspector type folks off.

 

[walrus]

I asked the AHJ today when they were out inspecting a basement finish in regard to zip ting the panel; and it is considered bundling the wires if they are zip tied within the panel, it is not allowed in any panel, residential or commercial. I learned that dressing a panel with zip ties varies from one AHJ to the next in Colorado. Our local municipality is probably one of the most difficult and particular in Colorado and the inspectors are all first class pricks, they don't like being questioned about anything, and even asking about dressing a panel he got somewhat annoyed, which I don't mind; because a part of me enjoys unintentionally ******* inspector type folks off.

I agree with the inspectors, zip ties in a panel are a pain in the **** and could be a cause for derating but the bundling would have be continuous for over 2 feet for him to site bundling

 

[cowboyjosh]

I agree with the inspectors, zip ties in a panel are a pain in the **** and could be a cause for derating but the bundling would have be continuous for over 2 feet for him to site bundling

Reckon they don't want to have to have to check the panels to make sure of the wires are not bundled for more then 2 feet so they just nix zip ties altogether in panels. Like I said these local guys are tough to reason with and nearly impossible to figure out their motivations. In this particular AHJ you are NOT allowed to bond CSST pipe despite the fact that CSST manufacturers have specific bonding requirements, all other municipalities in the state require bonding according to the manufacturers specs.

Sorry I hijacked this discussion with zip ties.

 

[Norcal]

Like I said these local guys are tough to reason with and nearly impossible to figure out their motivations. In this particular AHJ you are NOT allowed to bond CSST pipe despite the fact that CSST manufacturers have specific bonding requirements, all other municipalities in the state require bonding according to the manufacturers specs.

That inspector is a idiot, there are reasons why CSST is required to be bonded, but gimmie black iron pipe for gas still the best & not subject to recalls.

 

[cowboyjosh]

That inspector is a idiot, there are reasons why CSST is required to be bonded, but gimmie black iron pipe for gas still the best & not subject to recalls.

I agree, I WILL NOT, live in a house with CSST pipe, bonded or not. I installed CSST in about 25 homes in 2004-2005 before it came to be known that CSST pin holes and starts gas fed fires from close lightning strikes, in some cases even if its bonded; so I quickly went back to black iron pipe. Since the class action there still have been hundreds of incidents of gas leaks and fires linked to CSST throughout the country.

IMO CSST will eventually enter the hall of fame of ****** building products just like Aluminum wiring, Composition board siding, Woodruf fiber board roofing, and Dryvit / EIFS, and Federal Pacific electric panels.

 

[Norcal]

I agree, I WILL NOT, live in a house with CSST pipe, bonded or not. I installed CSST in about 25 homes in 2004-2005 before it came to be known that CSST pin holes and starts gas fed fires from close lightning strikes, in some cases even if its bonded; so I quickly went back to black iron pipe. Since the class action there still have been hundreds of incidents of gas leaks and fires linked to CSST throughout the country.

IMO CSST will eventually enter the hall of fame of ****** building products just like Aluminum wiring, Composition board siding, Woodruf fiber board roofing, and Dryvit / EIFS, and Federal Pacific electric panels.

There is nothing wrong with properly installed aluminum wiring, copper is the conductor of choice, but AL is safe installed correctly. (I don't care for it's use for branch circuit wiring though). Speaking of copper, in plumbing I think PEX stinks, copper plumbing has not been subject to recalls yet & the lawsuits against PEX have begun.......

 

[Grumpy365]

I agree with the inspectors, zip ties in a panel are a pain in the ****

A inspector can't arbitrarily fail an installation ,because he thinks it is "a pain in the ****". He better be failing the installation on code , not opinion.
I have argued with inspectors on installations, if he is right, i fix it, if he is just making up his own code, that is bull **** i won't abide.

 

[cowboyjosh]

There is nothing wrong with properly installed aluminum wiring, copper is the conductor of choice, but AL is safe installed correctly. (I don't care for it's use for branch circuit wiring though). Speaking of copper, in plumbing I think PEX stinks, copper plumbing has not been subject to recalls yet & the lawsuits against PEX have begun.......

branch wiring is what I meant by Aluminum wiring sucking, wiring for ranges, air conditioners, service entrance wiring is all ok to be aluminum.

Copper pipe from yesteryear rules, however there have been issues from pipe manufactured in either Mexico or China; pin holing after a few years or less of service. Some houses have had as many as 50 pin hole leaks.

Pex ***** IMO, I have PEX in my house, and some of it is stuff that is subject to a class action lawsuit. Knock on wood I have not had any issues myself nor has any of my homeowners I used Zurn and Wirsbo pex in; time will tell.

 

[cowboyjosh]

A inspector can't arbitrarily fail an installation ,because he thinks it is "a pain in the ****". He better be failing the installation on code , not opinion.
I have argued with inspectors on installations, if he is right, i fix it, if he is just making up his own code, that is bull **** i won't abide.

yes its on paper in that AHJ that zip ties within a panel enclosure are not allowed.

 

[walrus]

A inspector can't arbitrarily fail an installation ,because he thinks it is "a pain in the ****". .

I agree, still think zip ties are a useless pain in the ****. They do nothing but make it harder to figure out what goes where. In practice it doesn't mean diddly in residential work but in a commercial site making sure I'm shutting off the right breaker matters