Ground Rod hook up in shop

[minytrker]

My shop has a 100 amp service (4 wires) ran to my house's 200 amp service so its grounded there. My shop has no ground rod but was told one would be a good idea. Does the ground rod get wired to the actual metal building or does it go to the breaker box in the shop?

 

[aandpdan]

It goes to the breaker box and connects to the ground bus.

Usually 2 rods are required.

 

[minytrker]

There is a ground rod at the main 200 amp breaker box and a (4 gauge I think) ground wire going to the 100 amp breaker box. Your saying each breaker box needs 2 or I one for each breaker box?

 

[AntonLargiader]

Subpanels in detached structures need their own ground rods. There are a lot of threads on this; subpanels have their own grounding and neutral requirements.

 

[minytrker]

The electrician who changed out my 200 AMP breaker box and meter loop also hooked up my 100 amp breaker box in the shop and said since I ran a ground wire from the 200 amp box I was good. He also put the green bonding screw in the 100 amp panel.
A different electrician help me do the electrical in the shop and recommend putting a ground rod in and hooking it to the ground bar in the panel.

So I got 2 different answers from 2 licensed electricians.

 

[aandpdan]

There should not be a green bonding screw in your shop box (100 amp) with a 4 wire feed.

Bonds are only done at the first disconnect - the main panel or meter.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

My shop has a 100 amp service (4 wires) ran to my house's 200 amp service so its grounded there. My shop has no ground rod but was told one would be a good idea. Does the ground rod get wired to the actual metal building or does it go to the breaker box in the shop?

all detached structures need ground rods.

2 are required unless u can PROVE that there is 25 ohms or less of resistance.

Since equipment to do so is expensive most just pound the second rod.

The GEC wire goes to the EGC/ground bar.

The electrician who changed out my 200 AMP breaker box and meter loop also hooked up my 100 amp breaker box in the shop and said since I ran a ground wire from the 200 amp box I was good. He also put the green bonding screw in the 100 amp panel.
A different electrician help me do the electrical in the shop and recommend putting a ground rod in and hooking it to the ground bar in the panel.

So I got 2 different answers from 2 licensed electricians.

The first electrician doesnt know what he's doing most likely because he is stuck on pre-2008 code. This is why we are required to do continuing education since code changes every 3 years.

Pre-2008 NEC code allowed 3-wire feeds to detached structures which meant a bonded neutral bar(green screw) in the subpanel. Regardless, rods have been required on detached structures for decades.

Since u have 4-wire, that green screw needs to be removed. Not doing so can cause issues.

Do u have a separate ground bar in the subpanel?

Many people get confused on the difference between EGCs/ground wires and grounding electrodes- both are required on new feeds to detached structures. And this is because they are 2 different animals. rods are for grounding lightning and EGCs are for providing a low impedance fault path.

Heres a great article that explains it

Sounds like the first electrician needs to read it.

 

[minytrker]

Here is a picture of the 100 amp panel in the shop. The bar on the right has the green screw in it and all the ground wires were ran to this bar. The bar on the left all the neutral wires were ran.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Well first off looks like the wrong wire was used. That is URD and usually isnt rated to go inside.

Second, are those 2 bars tied together? Looks like the bonding bar is at the top and runs under the main breaker lugs.

If so, then that is done wrong.

U should remove the green ground screw, buy a ground bar kit and move the ground wires over to the new bar.

I just realized u are the same guy who did the FPE panel replacement.

 

[minytrker]

Yes that's me. One electrician did the panel replacement and hooked up the 100 amp wires on both panels. Another electrician ( friend of family) helped me wire the shop. He said I needed the ground rod installed and hooked to the ground bar. Here is a zoomed in pic

 

[minytrker]

This is the wire that was used.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yes that's me. One electrician did the panel replacement and hooked up the 100 amp wires on both panels. Another electrician ( friend of family) helped me wire the shop. He said I needed the ground rod installed and hooked to the ground bar. Here is a zoomed in pic

Yeah that bar ties the left and right bars together.

That electrician didnt know what he was doing.

If he was old school, he wouldve omitted the green taped wire, and done it as a 3-wire panel, which wouldve been wrong but current as of 2005 code.

The way its done now sets up a potential for someone to get shocked.

So u need to:

Remove green bonding screw
buy ground bar kit that is listed for that panel(check panel label)
screw it into pre-punched holes in panel using included self taping screws
move green taped EGC and green ground wires over to new bar
pound 2 ground rods and run GEC from rods to new bar. U can use solid #6 for the GEC

AND tell that electrician he needs to get updated on current code

here is a diagram

This is the wire that was used.

I wasnt referring to the branch circuit wiring. I was referring to the main feeder wires- the ones with the neutral that has the yellow stripe.

That is URD and is most likely not rated for indoor use.

And looks like u have 20 breakers. Did u use #14 on the 20a breakers? If so that is incorrect as well.

 

[minytrker]

Wow, the electrician came very highly recommended. Guess that's the downside to being out in the country where there aren't inspections.
The feed wire is a 3 wire mobile home feeder and I was told I needed the 4 ground wire by the electrician so I bought that and ran it with it. I bought a ground rod today but didnt buy a ground kit for my panel. Is it going to hurt anything to use my shop for the next couple days until I can change all this? Should I take the green screw out right now or wait until I get the ground bar?

All the 120v circuits were done with #14 even the lights which is the 15amp breaker.

This is frustrating, I was all excited the electrical was finally done and now find out its not right.

 

[Dr Stan]

The electrical code is fairly universal, but there are differences across the states and this is a local issue.

Has the wiring been inspected? Has it passed or failed?

In KY I'm allowed to do my own wiring as the homeowner, but still need to pass inspection.

 

[minytrker]

There are no inspections out here for residential that I have ever heard of.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Wow, the electrician came very highly recommended. Guess that's the downside to being out in the country where there aren't inspections.
The feed wire is a 3 wire mobile home feeder and I was told I needed the 4 ground wire by the electrician so I bought that and ran it with it. I bought a ground rod today but didnt buy a ground kit for my panel. Is it going to hurt anything to use my shop for the next couple days until I can change all this? Should I take the green screw out right now or wait until I get the ground bar?

All the 120v circuits were done with #14 even the lights which is the 15amp breaker.

This is frustrating, I was all excited the electrical was finally done and now find out its not right.

That in no way is mobile home feeder.

here is what MHF looks like:

And what u have is triplex URD:

which is used by PoCos for UndergroundResidentialDistribution.

IMPO, that is hack work to add a ground wire to URD.

Who picked the wire?

U should be fine for a couple days til u get it fixed.

Dont remove the screw as its the only thing bonding your panel to ground.

Can u get him to correct the issues?

The electrical code is fairly universal, but there are differences across the states and this is a local issue.

Has the wiring been inspected? Has it passed or failed?

In KY I'm allowed to do my own wiring as the homeowner, but still need to pass inspection.

How is this a local issue?

NEC code is clear on how to do a subpanel in a detached structure. And its also clear on which wire types are permitted inside structures. has nothing to do with local code issues...

 

[justsam]

Are you sure all the branch circuits were wired with 14ga wire as your example of the 14ga white thhn indicates? Check to be sure what the other spools are. AS has been pointed out, 14ga should be protected with a 15 Amp breaker. Where 12ga is used it may be protected with a 20 Amp breaker. Worst case it just means you have all 15 Amp branch circuits, where you may have thought you had some 20 Amp circuits.

Even the worst licensed electrician should catch that!

 

[minytrker]

I bought all the supplies based off what 3 different electricians told me. When I bought the wire the counter guy called it mobile home feeder the electrician did not. When they brought out the wire I said I was told it was 4 wire not 3. They said you can just add the ground wire for $50 more vs $300 more for the actual 4 wire.
The electrician who hooked up the new panel and the 100 amp panel said I needed 4 wire because it was better to have the ground wire going back to the main panel. He originally didnt put the green screw in the 100 amp panel and went back and looked and said he needed to put the screw in. He's been an electrician for 30+ years and is considered one of the best around here. Im guessing he is like alot of contractors around here they are just stuck in their old ways.

Ill get a ground bar kit tomorrow and another ground rod. So to make sure I understand correctly I need to install the ground bar kit in the 100 amp panel, remove green screw, run bare ground wire to 2 ground rods and move all grounds (green wires on right sidebar currently) to the new ground bar. Did I get that correct? I really appreciate all the help.

 

[minytrker]

Are you sure all the branch circuits were wired with 14ga wire as your example of the 14ga white thhn indicates? Check to be sure what the other spools are. AS has been pointed out, 14ga should be protected with a 15 Amp breaker. Where 12ga is used it may be protected with a 20 Amp breaker. Worst case it just means you have all 15 Amp branch circuits, where you may have thought you had some 20 Amp circuits.

Even the worst licensed electrician should catch that!

Sorry I meant 12 gauge for all the 120v not 14.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I bought all the supplies based off what 3 different electricians told me. When I bought the wire the counter guy called it mobile home feeder the electrician did not. When they brought out the wire I said I was told it was 4 wire not 3. They said you can just add the ground wire for $50 more vs $300 more for the actual 4 wire.
The electrician who hooked up the new panel and the 100 amp panel said I needed 4 wire because it was better to have the ground wire going back to the main panel. He originally didnt put the green screw in the 100 amp panel and went back and looked and said he needed to put the screw in. He's been an electrician for 30+ years and is considered one of the best around here. Im guessing he is like alot of contractors around here they are just stuck in their old ways.

Ill get a ground bar kit tomorrow and another ground rod. So to make sure I understand correctly I need to install the ground bar kit in the 100 amp panel, remove green screw, run bare ground wire to 2 ground rods and move all grounds (green wires on right sidebar currently) to the new ground bar. Did I get that correct? I really appreciate all the help.

Well the counter guy doesnt know his sh*t.

And $300 extra for the correct wire? sounds like they charged u an arm and a leg. How much was the 3-wire URD?

For 220' of 2/0-2/0-1-4 MHF from THIS company is about $422 TOTAL.

Sounds like they laughed all the way to the bank on your sale.

and old electricians a lot of times dont familiarize themselves with newer code. I have ran into many of them.

yes that is correct.

 

[minytrker]

The urd wire I was sold was $365 plus $50 for the ground for 225ft.


With the how the wires are now, where is the ground wire going to or what is it connected to? Looking at it I thought when he put in the green screw with the ground wire coming in the top it made the right side the ground now.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The urd wire I was sold was $365 plus $50 for the ground for 225ft.


With the how the wires are now, where is the ground wire going to or what is it connected to? Looking at it I thought when he put in the green screw with the ground wire coming in the top it made the right side the ground now.

wow so it was $665 for the right wire plus shipping?

wouldve been cheaper to buy online.

The green ground wire will move over to the new ground bar u buy.

Right now the left and right bars are connected via a bar that runs underneath the main breaker lugs. Notice the rivets at the top of each bar?

And the 2 lugs in the top middle are both connected to the neutral bars. Notice the N in the plastic?

 

[sberry]

Run a number 6 or 8 from the bar to the building frame too, should have a larger bond to a steel building.

 

[minytrker]

Run a number 6 or 8 from the bar to the building frame too, should have a larger bond to a steel building.

The building currently has no ground connected to it. How do you go from the ground bar to the building frame? I have OSB walls that the panel is mounted to so you cant get to the building frame on the inside easily.

 

[sberry]

You find a way. I just did a mod home with a steel frame and the man looked for the bond, number 6 to a visible connection. Yes, if you have it mounted on OSB and this is a steel building you need this bond. It insures anything shorted to it can handle the short circuit rating of the service.

 

[minytrker]

Had one electrician come by today and he said he would just install ground rod and run the copper wire to the right bar where I have the grounds hooked to and install a second ground rod and attach it to the exterior of the building. He said that's how most of them around here.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Had one electrician come by today and he said he would just install ground rod and run the copper wire to the right bar where I have the grounds hooked to and install a second ground rod and attach it to the exterior of the building. He said that's how most of them around here.

wow.

These guys need to be updated on current code.

Have u thought of printing out the pic i posted earlier and showing it to them?

 

[sberry]

I agree. "That's the way most of them done around these parts" is a poor excuse for knowing how.
The basic idea is, you want any neutrals outside the main service box to flow on insulated wire. We want any metal bonded together with the ground wire. This puts it all at the same potential eliminating the possibility of current beween any items, the building, the rods, the equipment all connected by a wire which is a super conductor compared to a human or the earth which has too hi resistance to pass enough current to trip a breaker. This is a "fault" or more commonly called a short circuit.

 

[sberry]

Everything outside the main bonded as one, has lines, metal water lines, frames of metal equipment. Anything with the potential to become energized needs a large enough wire to deliver the current that could potentially fault to it. This would be sized by the ground wire in a cord or cable or as spec by code. 8 for 100 and 6 for 200A.

 

[sberry]

Remember that neutrals are current carrying conductors. We don't want them running everywhere but keep them on insulated wire where they should be.

 

[teamextreme]

wow.

These guys need to be updated on current code.

It's hard to even blame it on not being up to date on current code. Pretty much all the violations here are things that have been code requirements for close to a decade or more. Things like the green bonding screw, that has never been the right way to do it. Even when 3 wire feeds were allowed by code, you still had the choice of running 3 OR 4 wire, and when you ran 4 wire you didn't install the bonding screw. These guys just don't know what they're doing.

I would take the sound advice you're getting here and just do the work yourself. With pics these guys can guide you to getting it installed properly and be a lot better job than you're paying pros for.

 

[donpauli2]

Subpanels of which there is no mention should NOT HAVE THE SUBPANEL bonding ( connecting ) screw joining the neutral bar and grounding bar in the sub panel. The only place that screw is used is the entrance panel. Very very generally speaking the " subpanel" ELECTRICAL ground should be through the 4 th wire going back to the entrance panel. The "two" ground rods would be connected to a grounding strip in the subpanel


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Remember that neutrals are current carrying conductors. We don't want them running everywhere but keep them on insulated wire where they should be.

Wow sberry

Your english has improved immensely!

Your last 3 comments are spot on

It's hard to even blame it on not being up to date on current code. Pretty much all the violations here are things that have been code requirements for close to a decade or more. Things like the green bonding screw, that has never been the right way to do it. Even when 3 wire feeds were allowed by code, you still had the choice of running 3 OR 4 wire, and when you ran 4 wire you didn't install the bonding screw. These guys just don't know what they're doing.

I would take the sound advice you're getting here and just do the work yourself. With pics these guys can guide you to getting it installed properly and be a lot better job than you're paying pros for.

The part i was blaming on not being up to current code is the neutral bonding/3-wire feed which WAS allowed in before 2008.

The guy screwed the pooch when he added the 4th wire but failed to unbond the panel and add a ground bar.

 

[ard]

I bought all the supplies based off what 3 different electricians told me.

Wise to use an odd number- that way you have a built in tie break....

 

[minytrker]

Wise to use an odd number- that way you have a built in tie break....

Well it looks like in my case all 3 are wrong.

 

[minytrker]

I got 2 ground rods now and a ground bus bar. Hopefully the weather will be good and I can install all of this tomorrow. What do I with the big gauge ground wire coming from the main 200 amp panel, does it stay where it is?

Plan:
1. Install 2-8ft ground rods
2. Install ground bus in panel
3. One ground rod to building exterior, one to new ground bus in panel
4. Move all grounds to new ground bus
5. Remove Green screw
6. Not sure what to do with big ground wire from 200 amp panel going into top of my 100 amp panel

Does that seem correct, am I missing or skipping anything?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I got 2 ground rods now and a ground bus bar. Hopefully the weather will be good and I can install all of this tomorrow. What do I with the big gauge ground wire coming from the main 200 amp panel, does it stay where it is?

Plan:
1. Install 2-8ft ground rods
2. Install ground bus in panel
3. One ground rod to building exterior, one to new ground bus in panel
4. Move all grounds to new ground bus
5. Remove Green screw
6. Not sure what to do with big ground wire from 200 amp panel going into top of my 100 amp panel

Does that seem correct, am I missing or skipping anything?

Close.

The green taped EGC/ground from the main needs to be moved over to the new ground bar.

Im not sure what youre trying to say on #3.

For the grounding electrodes, u need 2(u bought 2), spaced at least 6' apart and u connect them with either #8 cu protected in conduit OR solid #6 cu that runs from ground bar in panel to first rod then second. Make sure the wire isnt subject to damage(string line trimmer?). The wire to the first rod needs to be continuous.

Check out the diagram i posted earlier if u have any questions.

 

[minytrker]

Got it thanks. I thought one ground rod went to the exterior of the building to ground it. Do they make a lug to attach the ground wire from the main panel since its like a 4 or 6 gauge wire it will not fit into the ground bar?

Will this work?

 

[teamextreme]

One ground wire from ground bus in panel to the two ground rods, hit the first one, then loop to the second one. A second ground wire can go from ground bus in panel to bond the building steel.

 

[sberry]

A 6 will work in to the bar. Whoops, maybe not that one, it will fit in SqD