To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

Ground Rod Wire Sizing

Spudland_Dave

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 12, 2010
Messages
3,025
Location
Maine
Putting my electrical supply shopping list together as its looking like i'll have our mini-ex back at the house this weekend.
Ground Wire for the Ground Rods....What size is needed for my sub? I'll be using 2-2-2-4 MHF for the feed.... Found a ground wire size chart online that says #8 Copper is good, but I didnt know if you needed to upsize to #6 when going to two rods or anything.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

Charles (in GA)

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
12,489
Location
50 mi south of Atlanta
Solid #6 is better. It can be run unprotected. #8 must be protected where ever it is exposed. Ground cannot be interrupted, must be one continuous wire. Only way to join wires is using approved permanent connection methods such as exothermic welding.

Charles
 
OP
S

Spudland_Dave

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 12, 2010
Messages
3,025
Location
Maine
Sounds like unless the #6 is crazy more money then 8, thats what I'll do...

So when you guys say solid, you mean its literally one wire (similar to the ground wire on a 12-2 Romex only much larger) Not Stranded...It will be protected where exposed, I will only be running conduit 36" in the ground ending with a sweep for my feed..direct burial between the buildings, so I was planning on slapping the ground wire in that conduit and putting my first ground right right where the Sweep ends in the trench.
 

wyliesdiesels

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
20,054
Location
Modesto, CA
Yes, #6cu is one solid wire- no strands!

And I wouldn't put it in the conduit. You are allowed to follow the building contour unprotected with #6 and run it straight to the ground rod! Most inspectors like to see the rods, so if you bury it with the conduit, it won't be visible!
 

Falcon67

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 11, 2009
Messages
18,371
Location
Merkel, TX
I bought 30' of #4 and put a little over 20' of it right in the foundation. Stubbed it up next to the in feed conduit and ran it straight into the box. If your's is already poured, then what they said is the way to go.
 
OP
S

Spudland_Dave

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 12, 2010
Messages
3,025
Location
Maine
Yes, #6cu is one solid wire- no strands!

And I wouldn't put it in the conduit. You are allowed to follow the building contour unprotected with #6 and run it straight to the ground rod! Most inspectors like to see the rods, so if you bury it with the conduit, it won't be visible!

No inspectors...no code. Heck If I didnt want a ground rod at all that would be "fine" too...
Only problem with it being exposed outdoors is IMO its an eye sore...If I didnt run it in with the Entrance Conduit, I'd run it down into the ground in her own dedicated 1/2" conduit for the sole purposes of keeping things neat & nice.

So I've gotta ask...what is the stranded bare copper for? I noticed thats what I've got at the house inside...cant see what goes from the meter into the ground tho as its in a small conduit of its own.

Yes, Form AND Function are equally important in my world...
 

ddawg16

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Messages
21,005
Location
S. California
#6 for 100A or less
#4 for panels above 100A

Our neighbor had their new meter inspected yesterday....the contractor landed both rods in front near the main water line (proper serperation).....the inspector said that the second one could have been by the meter instead of in the front.
 
OP
S

Spudland_Dave

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 12, 2010
Messages
3,025
Location
Maine
Just bought 20' of #6 Solid Copper Ground Wire...It will only be connected from the panel to the two ground rods.
 

sberry

Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Messages
35,747
Location
Brethren, Michigan
There are other details besides rods in some buildings. If its steel framed it needs a bond, should be bonded to footer steel and any underground steel water piping that enters the building (believe its within 5 ft of entrance) metal gas line should be bonded to the electric system, phone entrance, TV antennas and I would think satellite dishes. Some like phones land dishes I believe let them drive a rod it it is X amount of ft from the service grounds but I ran the wire 40 ft (used to come in to protector on the modem, blow up the strip, not blow the phone co protection. Now in couple storms we had took out the phone co thingy without any further damage, seems to work like its sposed to, was a routine problem.) Probably other things I am missing???
 

wyliesdiesels

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
20,054
Location
Modesto, CA
Nothing says its got to be solid.

It does if the clamp is only L&L for solid wire. Have u ever installed stranded wire with a weaver clamp? Most small clamps would be a pain to use with stranded wire. U might be able to do stranded with an acorn clamp but forget it if using a weaver clamp! A solid GEC wire is easier to deal with and most would rather look @ bare copper than a green jacketed wire, especially those concerned with aesthetics!

Its got to be 4 if it is bonding to other electrodes like buried steel water piping to rods its 6 to 200a.

No, #6 would be fine in this situation for going to water pipe. #6 is maximum between rods(main, phone, cable, etc.) and #4 is maximum if ending @ UFER! The GEC is actually sized per NEC T250.66, which is based on the size of the service wire!

There are other details besides rods in some buildings. If its steel framed it needs a bond, should be bonded to footer steel and any underground steel water piping that enters the building (believe its within 5 ft of entrance) metal gas line should be bonded to the electric system, phone entrance, TV antennas and I would think satellite dishes. Some like phones land dishes I believe let them drive a rod it is X amount of ft from the service grounds....Probably other things I am missing???

Yes, building steel needs to be bonded and yes, water line should be bonded within first 5' of entering building, sized per NEC T250.66. Gas pipe is sized per NEC T250.122.
#10 is minimum for phone, satellite and cable! And its a minimum of 8' between rods!

And I think u covered it all!
 
Last edited:

sberry

Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Messages
35,747
Location
Brethren, Michigan
I think a phone is 14 and something about being black even, as I said a long time ago I read it. When there is a steel waterpipe available buried for 10 ft or more its sposed to be condidered the primary electrode, the rods are suplementary, I think that is sposed to be a 4 which is likely the same ae new bond requirement to the resteel in the foundation? Is it sposed to be a 4?

Anyway it seems like the ideal situation is to put a lug on a steel well casing if you got it. In my situation I have a service main in my steel building and the water is connected to another building I have a sub in tied to a sub that feeds the well house, that panel as well as the house sub are connected to well, I think there should be a bond strap to the casing I was considering, since this is the electrode for these 2 detatched services I want the strike to go to well equipment, drop pipe of steel but to the steel casing itself.

Clear as mud right, well I do have steel pipe feeding water to my building with main it has insulated plastic connection, I didnt ground to it. I have a huge uffer. I have a retaining wall with a footer I had to de water to pour, pounded a couple rods in standing water, its across the building but its sunk in the wet earth and connected to the steel building. I put the electrodes in to satisfy the code requirement but the whole structure is one giant uffer, I figured no reason to connect the main to this due to the fact that if it gets hit not sure I want it to find its way to the well thru my pipe either. The well is grounded to the system via the subfeed wire.

These requirements are really good to quiz the well man on, ha. Ok, It kind of made it clear when one of the code gurus splained it this way, parking lot lighting, steel pole, you ground the pole to the electric system via a conductor with the power but might want to add ground rod at poleYou are giving a lighting strike a chance to disipate or whatever it does vs it being carried to ground somewhere else via your wiring????>>
 

sberry

Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Messages
35,747
Location
Brethren, Michigan
How does this apply,,, well if we add a second set of rods to the sub fed service, in this case a detached garage,,, as good as the set of rods at the service main in theory again, the ground wire between structures does not carry strike to the main or back wards. Hence,,, back to mr well man,,, the lightening didn't hit the well but was the recipient of it? Old steel submersible wells have rubber seal to casing connection, mr installer is connecting the electric ground to this, it should be bonded but the primary electrode should be the casing.

I remember I had one they ruled as lightening damage, great, was about 20 yrs old anyway, had it insured, I replaced the entrance equipment all of it and started poking around, yes the service was installed with a rod. Anyway I pecked around on one of the code sites. I mentioned that I wanted this right and the well guy suddenly developed a speech impediment about the correct way, the guru says, ground it to the steel casing 20 ft away, duh. I said, I can weld a lug on bolt wire, dig trench, run wire to service panel, no rods needed, yes, period.

My neighbors recent had a "struck well" property with older service, well, mobile home and this little steel shed that they had jury rigged an electric circuit to, fed from the house via a 3 wire plug on a piece of uf to an outdoor recept, anyway, the place gets hit, takes the well out and mysteriously blows up a couple fixtures here and there that don't make sense,,, well I could just see the pathway, damaged equipment on the same circuit, pathway right back to the panel, from there it went via the to the well stand pipe, the hit equipment was on a circuit about 50 ft of number 12, was enough to take this lighting strike right thru this house.
 

sberry

Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Messages
35,747
Location
Brethren, Michigan
The code bickering is good but the principle is that we want the 4th wire between these buildings to be for electric faults and not for strikes, the rods are for strikes and not for faults.

As simple as I understand it.

Now we want to insulate the neutral from this.
 

sberry

Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Messages
35,747
Location
Brethren, Michigan
Insulated N leaves no alternate pathways for neutral currents, the N never carries an equipment fault, never carries a strike in theory. Leaves the ground wires able to connect everything together at the same potential and to provide for electrical fault return.

Come to think of it I was looking for a bond I couldn't find after some wiring, I know wtf,,, bet the old furnace has a bonded control. I was racking my brain trying to figure where it was, its the fricken furnace. When they changed some appliances I pulled new wire and upgraded the circuits, I thought I got rid of every bonded appliance and got some funny meter readings when I was running an outage.
 

Aceman

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 28, 2007
Messages
2,513
Location
Eastern Oregon
U might be able to do stranded with an acorn clamp but forget it if using a weaver clamp!

Acorns accept stranded, all the electricians I've ever heard of use acorns, so stranded is just fine. If a guy is using weaver's. maybe he should start using acorns which accept both solid and stranded??

No, #6 would be fine in this situation for going to water pipe. #6 is minimum between rods and #4 is minimum if ending @ UFER! The GEC is actually sized per NEC T250.66, which is based on the size of the service wire!

Red print should say "maximum required".

Yes, building steel needs to be bonded and yes, water line should be bonded within first 5' of entering building, sized per NEC T250.66. Gas pipe is sized per NEC T250.122.
#10 is minimum for phone, satellite and cable! And its a minimum of 8' between rods!

6 feet.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

wyliesdiesels

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
20,054
Location
Modesto, CA
Acorns accept stranded, all the electricians I've ever heard of use acorns, so stranded is just fine. If a guy is using weaver's. maybe he should start using acorns which accept both solid and stranded??

Fair enough!

Red print should say "maximum required".

You're right. Don't know how I did that one!


My 2005 code book says 8'. Did it change in one of the recent code cycles? (I guess its time to get a new code book!)
 

wyliesdiesels

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
20,054
Location
Modesto, CA
#6 for 100A or less
#4 for panels above 100A

GEC is actually sized per service conductor size NOT service size, as I said earlier in comment #15- NEC T250.66!

I think a phone is 14 and something about being black even, as I said a long time ago I read it.

No, 10ga and green! EGC always required to be green! Lately though, I've seen Comcast using 12ga. And I've asked them about it, even citing the NEC code, which they supposedly train their techs to follow/comply with, and they said it was fine to use 12ga!

When there is a steel water pipe available buried for 10 ft or more its supposed to be considered the primary electrode, the rods are supplementary, I think that is supposed to be a 4ga which is likely the same as the new bond requirement to the steel in the foundation? Is it supposed to be a 4ga?

Yes, if metal water pipe is 10' or more in contact with soil, then it should be considered an electrode.(NEC 250.52A1) But water pipe CANNOT be the only electrode(NEC 250.53D2), so I wouldn't consider rods as supplementary in that situation! And again as I said before many times, the GEC to a water pipe or rod is sized per NEC T250.66 (NEC code 250.104A1), which is based on the size of the service conductor so it may not be 4ga! Yes, building steel is max 4ga. Metal gas pipe is sized per the EGC table- NEC T250.122.

Anyway it seems like the ideal situation is to put a lug on a steel well casing if you got it. In my situation I have a service main in my steel building and the water is connected to another building I have a sub in tied to a sub that feeds the well house, that panel as well as the house sub are connected to the well, I think there should be a bond strap to the casing I was considering, since this is the electrode for these 2 detached services I want the strike to go to well equipment, drop pipe of steel but to the steel casing itself.

That should not be your only electrode!

Clear as mud right, well I do have steel pipe feeding water to my building with main it has insulated plastic connection, I didn't ground to it. I have a huge Ufer. I have a retaining wall with a footer I had to de water to pour, pounded a couple rods in standing water, its across the building but its sunk in the wet earth and connected to the steel building. I put the electrodes in to satisfy the code requirement but the whole structure is one giant Ufer, I figured no reason to connect the main to this due to the fact that if it gets hit not sure I want it to find its way to the well thru my pipe either. The well is grounded to the system via the subfeed wire.

If its connected to the well via the well EGC, then it IS connected and depending on the resistance, a lightning strike could go that route!

These requirements are really good to quiz the well man on, ha. Ok, It kind of made it clear when one of the code gurus explained it this way, parking lot lighting, steel pole, you ground the pole to the electric system via a conductor with the power but might want to add ground rod at pole. You are giving a lightning strike a chance to dissipate or whatever it does vs. it being carried to ground somewhere else via your wiring????>>

That's a good point! I don't think street lights each have a ground rod, but I've never installed one. Telephone poles do! And yes, it can be interesting quizzing a tradesman to see if they know what they're doing!
 

wyliesdiesels

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
20,054
Location
Modesto, CA
How does this apply,,, well if we add a second set of rods to the sub fed service, in this case a detached garage,,, as good as the set of rods at the service main in theory again, the ground wire between structures does not carry strike to the main or backwards...

The feeder EGC COULD carry a lightning strike but the goal is for it to discharge @ the rods so it won't carry through the rest of the system and do all the damage u described later on. This is just the reason the NEC says rods need to be 25ohms or less or use 2 rods!

The code bickering is good but the principle is that we want the 4th wire between these buildings to be for electric faults and not for strikes, the rods are for strikes and not for faults....

That would be correct but electricity has a mind of its own sometimes! I don't even know how a rod would properly communicate a fault to a breaker!

Insulated N leaves no alternate pathways for neutral currents, the N never carries an equipment fault, never carries a strike in theory. Leaves the ground wires able to connect everything together at the same potential and to provide for electrical fault return....

That would be correct and just the reason why N and G should not be bonded in subpanels in case the neutral drops out and then currents would flow over grounded bare surfaces creating a shock potential!
 

wyliesdiesels

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
20,054
Location
Modesto, CA
It doesn't and not intended to.

I know that. What I should've said is I don't understand how someone WOULD think a rod could communicate a fault to a breaker!

Acorns accept stranded, all the electricians I've ever heard of use acorns, so stranded is just fine. If a guy is using weaver's, maybe he should start using acorns which accept both solid and stranded??

What's the largest acorn clamp made? 3/4"? What do u do if u need to bond a large water line? Weavers!
 

sberry

Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Messages
35,747
Location
Brethren, Michigan
Ace, that is an interesting question. Some of my comment is not shooting at anyone but pure human nature. I a lot of people work in related trades or a facet of this one, kind of my case. People that come to forums and are not one post wonders or have a specific question but participate are an interested crowd, sometimes one could think they are here to tell everyone but I figure the guy is here to learn.

People learn different ways and as an old timer said, I got nothing against a guy learning the answer one day and repeating it the next as long as it is the right answer and forums by nature seem to sort it out fairly well,,,, someone will point it out, I do it, people do it to me, I have done it to wylie, I am not real sensitive most of the time, but I like him, I am glad he is here, I don't answer every question I know the answer to , he isn't a threat but an asset in a big way.

Back to the learning, forums have made the world safer by a long shot, taught me a bunch, would have still been doing a lot the wrong way if not for them, Ace brought to attn the fact that 2 wasn't for 100 anymore, in fact he was rather indignant about it, ok, thats cool he made the point, but he learn about it about 5 minutes after it happened, really took a couple tries to make the point due to the fact he said,, it was and until he points out it was a change made it understandable.

I almost bet Wylie is like me to some extent, if I had to sign up for a class or learn by learning down on the book it probably ain't gonna happen but as I mention I drug the book along with the forum especially in areas of interest and need, I also basically don't need to be an expert in every area to the extent a master in the trades (should be).

If it matters that I don't write like I have a phd in English lit thats tuff **** too and there is probably enough interest for other things on this forum for this guy to keep him here and he really doesn't have to sneak in to the forums for the trades where a prerequisite seems to be a **** that figures they are so much above average they never had to start at the beginning and that every electric problem in the world was done by some shoddy homeowner or guy without a license, although they often miss some important concepts,,, hence the thing I really try to look for in a post vs picking on each other over fine points of codes, which in itself is a good thing, lots of learning there too. There is room for both.
 

sberry

Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Messages
35,747
Location
Brethren, Michigan
I know that. What I should've said is I don't understand how someone WOULD think a rod could communicate a fault to a breaker!



What's the largest acorn clamp made? 3/4"? What do u do if u need to bond a large water line? Weavers!

I figured wylie actually knew when I replied, it wasnt about the clamp, I figured someone would come along with that but it was a clarity thing.
 

wyliesdiesels

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
20,054
Location
Modesto, CA
Are you in the trade? Or are you just a guy with a codebook at home?

This may surprise you, but we use..........a water pipe clamp:

http://www.erico.com/products/PipeClamps.asp

Yes, I am in the trade! However, I am not licensed. BUT...I am far above apprentice level. I've been doing electrical for many years under different licensed contractors. I've also done work independently for owner builders. I would go into the IBEW apprenticeship program so I could get my journeyman card but there's a 5+ year wait list...maybe longer! Instead of waiting around for something that may never happen, I joined this forum to learn more!

The reason I asked about clamps for pipes is because I've never seen anything other than acorns and weavers! U learn something new everyday! Thx for the tip!

@Sberry- Are u an electrical contractor? Thx for the analysis. It was pretty on-point!
 

sberry

Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Messages
35,747
Location
Brethren, Michigan
No, I am a farmer. My legit expertise is actually in welding (if I have one) ha and I don't know the first thing about how one electron bumps another and am lost past about 4 wires, got to look at a picture to wire a 3 way. 95% of installation is pure mechanical, I do know the trade names of the fittings sitting at the counter but my interest is purely infrastructure, its not about electric but about providing adequate safe circuits to accomplish what ever it is I want to do. Like a lot of guys figured out hearsay code quotes were not worth a ****, finally had to figure it out. Thats kind of a short version. I am kind of sensitive to specific areas where I didnt know way back when etc.
 

sberry

Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Messages
35,747
Location
Brethren, Michigan
There might be something to be said for knowing ones way around a union hall, find a mentor maybe to give you a few pointers about that aspect? If I had to start over and pick up a lunch box Monday I would probably join a union, the electricians would be high on my list, depending on local conditions (any big projects in ares) etc. My trade for 10 yrs was Ironwork but not sure I would head back there and being some kind of fussy pipe welder doesn't interest me all that much although pipeline would be as good as any.
 

Aceman

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 28, 2007
Messages
2,513
Location
Eastern Oregon
Ok. Now I feel insulted! Maybe that wasn't intended but still. The link u sent me has a picture of a WEAVER CLAMP right on the page! Am I missing something?

I don't know? Do you call a water pipe clamp a weaver? We simply call them what they are.

You made this comment about stranded and weavers earlier:

Have u ever installed stranded wire with a weaver clamp? Most small clamps would be a pain to use with stranded wire. U might be able to do stranded with an acorn clamp but forget it if using a weaver clamp!

If you're calling water pipe clamps weavers, I can't understand why you think it'd be impossible to use stranded. That's ALL we use.

Insert wire in hole. Tighten set screw. The pipe clamp doesn't care if it's stranded or solid, it's accepts both.
 

sberry

Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Messages
35,747
Location
Brethren, Michigan
wylie seen this as a brand name like Romex. Probably about 3 suppliers of these in the country. I got to agree with Ace here its a water pipe clamp, have seen them used on rods also. If I couldnt find it and had to ask the guy at Home Depot where they were or across a parts counter its the way I would describe it. To a counterman might even add 1, 2, or 3 to identify the size.

I figured out there was something I didnt know about a "weaver" clamp, never heard of it before.
 
Last edited:

Norcal

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
13,767
A wire to a ground rod does not need to be larger then #6, no matter what size service, 100A or 1000A.....
 

foolishpride

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 21, 2009
Messages
343
Location
Southwestern Ohio
Yes, I am in the trade! However, I am not licensed. BUT...I am far above apprentice level. I've been doing electrical for many years under different licensed contractors. I've also done work independently for owner builders. I would go into the IBEW apprenticeship program so I could get my journeyman card but there's a 5+ year wait list...maybe longer! Instead of waiting around for something that may never happen, I joined this forum to learn more!

Wylie, go down to your local union hall, and talk to the organizer about joining their union. If you have at least 5 years of experience in the trade, they would probably give you a Journeyman's test and take you in.

The International IBEW pushes the local unions to organize as many people as possible. So they have to take you in if you would like. (It's all about the Dues $$$ to them, :thumbup:)

I know my local would take you in a heartbeat.
 

Norcal

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
13,767
Wylie, go down to your local union hall, and talk to the organizer about joining their union. If you have at least 5 years of experience in the trade, they would probably give you a Journeyman's test and take you in.

The International IBEW pushes the local unions to organize as many people as possible. So they have to take you in if you would like. (It's all about the Dues $$$ to them, :thumbup:)

I know my local would take you in a heartbeat.

But how many are sitting on the bench?
 

sberry

Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Messages
35,747
Location
Brethren, Michigan
Originally Posted by sberry
I think a phone is 14 and something about being black even, as I said a long time ago I read it.

No, 10ga and green! EGC always required to be green! Lately though, I've seen Comcast using 12ga. And I've asked them about it, even citing the NEC code, which they supposedly train their techs to follow/comply with, and they said it was fine to use 12ga!
Does 800.40 A3 not pertain to phones?
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
Top Bottom