Ground rods in Fairfax Co. Va

[Jeff590]

Just got off the phone with the county permit office. I wanted to clarify a couple of things, mainly if schedule 80 conduit is needed. But then I asked about ground rods for a detached garage - his answer was you don't need them. To clarify, I ask: "so the ground wire from the main panel is all that it needed, no additional ground rods?" and his answer was "that is correct".

I'm pretty confused now - to me it was a given I needed them, I was only going to ask how many and what type of wire to use.

So what do I do? Put them in anyway? Wait for the inspector to come out and discuss it with him?

 

[Falcon67]

I'd do either rods or a UFER. I used a UFER here, no problem with inspection and easy to lay a run of #4 copper in the forms before the pour. YMMV of course.

 

[colomboj]

The NEC says you need a ground rod, or other ground system, and the inspector would be a better source of information than the secretary at the office.

250.32(A) Buildings or structures supplied by feeders or branch circuits shall have a grounding electrode or grounding electrode system installed in accordance with Part III of Article 250.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Sounds like you spoke to someone who didnt know.

NEC most definitely requires electrodes for detached.

UFER is better than rods but has specific footing requirements.

 

[pattenp]

I can tell you that Virginia Unified Building Code requires the rod(s) or UFER. Remember, the electrode grounding system is to handle lighting strikes, the equipment grounding conductor is for clearing fault current (trip the breaker). Whoever you spoke to was not well informed.

 

[ard]

IMO 'inspectors' can often be a poor source of Code information...

 

[Jeff590]

Ok, just making sure - ground rods it is. The interesting part is the guy I was talking to was the code compliance guy for the county - according to him, he is the guy the field inspectors call when they have code questions.

I have (2) 1/2 x 8 foot rods and solid #6 copper for the connections - is that good? (do I need 5/8")

Is physical protection required coming out the structure for the #6 copper?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Ok, just making sure - ground rods it is. The interesting part is the guy I was talking to was the code compliance guy for the county - according to him, he is the guy the field inspectors call when they have code questions.

I have (2) 1/2 x 8 foot rods and solid #6 copper for the connections - is that good? (do I need 5/8")

Is physical protection required coming out the structure for the #6 copper?

Yeah he needs to take a refresher course.

 

[barnee]

Just built a detached garage in Fairfax County VA and got a lot of different answers such as:

1. You have to install a UFER if you have new foundations going in (inspector)
2. You need a UFER and Grounding Rods (electrican)
3. You just need a UFER, but it has to have an access panel to make sure its connected in the future (third party inspection firm)

In the end just needed the UFER

 

[ard]

3. You just need a UFER, but it has to have an access panel to make sure its connected in the future (third party inspection firm)

In the end just needed the UFER

"in the end"? Who was that final arbiter of what was 'right'? Remember the final inspector isnt, necessarily, right?

And the connection of the UFER needs to be inspectable, so a plate is needed if inside a wall.

 

[barnee]

"in the end"? Who was that final arbiter of what was 'right'? Remember the final inspector isnt, necessarily, right?

And the connection of the UFER needs to be inspectable, so a plate is needed if inside a wall.

In this case it was the county inspector for my area that came out to do the "framing" inspection which includes all wall rough ins and heavy up/panel inspection and he specifically checked the UFER connection.

Walls being closed up as we speak and he said no access panel required, although it would be easy to find the connection should someone change their mind.

 

[ard]

In this case it was the county inspector for my area that came out to do the "framing" inspection which includes all wall rough ins and heavy up/panel inspection and he specifically checked the UFER connection.

Walls being closed up as we speak and he said no access panel required, although it would be easy to find the connection should someone change their mind.

Im not taking issue- I was just highlighting the ephemeral nature of 'compliance'


Let me ask this: after you sell the house, and then it sells again. How would that new owner find that ufer connection?

(and yes, I know you were speaking of one of YOUR inspections...)

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Reinspection of a UFER is pointless.

Theres no way the connection could come loose on its own.

 

[aunsafe2015]

Just built a detached garage in Fairfax County VA and got a lot of different answers such as:

1. You have to install a UFER if you have new foundations going in (inspector)
2. You need a UFER and Grounding Rods (electrican)
3. You just need a UFER, but it has to have an access panel to make sure its connected in the future (third party inspection firm)

In the end just needed the UFER

Did you do it yourself or have somebody build it for you? If the latter, mind sharing who and whether you liked them?

 

[larry4406]

I’m in Fauquier County VA about 20 minutes west of you. I’m building a detached now. I had to put in a UFER and it was inspected prior to pour. Ultimately I will have 4-wire feed from house panel.

I do the same on the production homes I build with detached garages.

I think you got bad info from someone at FX Co.

 

[colomboj]

Ok, just making sure - ground rods it is. The interesting part is the guy I was talking to was the code compliance guy for the county - according to him, he is the guy the field inspectors call when they have code questions.

I have (2) 1/2 x 8 foot rods and solid #6 copper for the connections - is that good? (do I need 5/8")

Is physical protection required coming out the structure for the #6 copper?

You only need one ground rod, but more than one isn't going to hurt anything either. Physical protection is required if the wire is subject to physical damage. You can throw it in a piece of 1/2" sch 80 pvc and cover that requirement without having to use a bonding locknut on each end. Plastic obviously can't become energized so no need to bond it right! If you are going to cover the ground wire with drywall or the like then there is no need to put it in conduit.

Everyone is all talking about ufer grounds and such... ufer is a trade name it's actually called a "concrete encased electrode" per the NEC. The idea is that if you have rebar in your concrete you ground it. Where I live we don't use a lot of rebar in slab anymore it's all gone the way of fiberglass strand, but if you do then by all means grounding it is a great idea.

 

[mm08822]

You only need one ground rod, but more than one isn't going to hurt anything either.

You need a supplemental electrode unless you can prove 25 ohms or less to earth with the one electrode. Quicker/cheaper to add a second rod than to test for 25 ohms or less.

 

[colomboj]

You need a supplemental electrode unless you can prove 25 ohms or less to earth with the one electrode. Quicker/cheaper to add a second rod than to test for 25 ohms or less.

Ya got me... drive two of 'em. Spend the money on beers not 1500$ meters to measure one ******** thing.

 

[Jeff590]

You can throw it in a piece of 1/2" sch 80 pvc and cover that requirement without having to use a bonding locknut on each end.

Cool. Tracking down some schedule 80 today since HD does not stock it.

I think I am ok on the 1/2" ground rods. From my reading they need to be 5/8" or can be 1/2 inch and "listed", and mine are UL-listed.

 

[Falcon67]

LOL above, here in the big city they require both a UFER and two 8' rods. City amendments to the code. Drives the sparkys I know nuts, never got a reason from the city about why. "Because they can" is assumed. Maybe "backlash" in response to 100s of non-compliant structures.

 

[barnee]

Let me ask this: after you sell the house, and then it sells again. How would that new owner find that ufer connection?

Thousands of pictures of the open studs after rough in, plus its right under the electric panel.

 

[barnee]

Did you do it yourself or have somebody build it for you? If the latter, mind sharing who and whether you liked them?

I acted as the GC and did all of the site work, rough in's, general labor, material purchases, and trash removal. Hired a foundation company, framer, roofer, siding company, electrician, plumber, insulation company and now drywall.

After that I have the interior finishes to hire or do myself, but frankly I'm exhausted.

 

[lakelandcat]

Ok, just making sure - ground rods it is. The interesting part is the guy I was talking to was the code compliance guy for the county - according to him, he is the guy the field inspectors call when they have code questions.

I have (2) 1/2 x 8 foot rods and solid #6 copper for the connections - is that good? (do I need 5/8")

Is physical protection required coming out the structure for the #6 copper?

Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. Just got my final and my inspector made me drive two rods and six feet apart. I used 5/8 copper rods and #4 solid copper wire. He also wanted me to pound them 2" below grade. I also came from my meter,(before my main panel) and was 125' away. I hooked up 240v and used #4 THHN. All was good in the hood.

 

[T_R]

Here is how I understand it.

With a detached garage if you have a main panel in the home and a subpanel in the garage, if it's fed with a 4 wire conductor, you don't need a separate ground rod at the garage. If it's 3 you do.

For the number of ground rods, 1 is required. If the one doesn't pass the test with a meter, you need a second at least 6 feet away. Most inspectors seem to not want to be bothered to test the rod and just want to see 2 rods.

 

[Jeff590]

if it's fed with a 4 wire conductor, you don't need a separate ground rod at the garage. If it's 3 you do.

Interesting. That seemed to be what he was saying - we had talked about what size wire to run and if I recall correctly he was saying the ground wire would provide the required grounding. Maybe I'll call back on Monday and confirm.

 

[Norcal]

Here is how I understand it.

With a detached garage if you have a main panel in the home and a subpanel in the garage, if it's fed with a 4 wire conductor, you don't need a separate ground rod at the garage. If it's 3 you do.

For the number of ground rods, 1 is required. If the one doesn't pass the test with a meter, you need a second at least 6 feet away. Most inspectors seem to not want to be bothered to test the rod and just want to see 2 rods.

The days of a 3-wire feed to a outbuilding are many editions of the NEC over & done away with. A 4-wire feed and connection to a recognized grounding electrode is required, if new construction a CEE, Concrete Encased Electrode, AKA a UFER, named after the man who developed it, would be all that is required, other wise if a ground rod is used, then it must be tested to prove 25 Ohms of resistance or less, OR drive a 2nd rod at least 6' from the 1st one & be done with it, since the testing equipment is costly, & need to be qualified to use it, the 2nd rod becomes the best choice.

 

[pattenp]

There is an exception for grounding electrodes in NEC 250.32(A). The interpretation I've always encountered is if there is a subpanel then a grounding electrode system (GES) is required. If you have an outbuilding that's served by a single or multiwire branch circuit that's 20A or less where a subpanel is not needed then no GES is needed. Regardless of what your inspector says, I think installing a GES is smart.

Read this.. https://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/2004/01/16/grounding-and-bonding-methods-for-outbuildings/

 

[larry4406]

OP - new future construction or existing detached?

 

[Jeff590]

OP - new future construction or existing detached?

This is a new build that was completed this past summer. I did the epoxy and asphalt first, now finishing the electric. So still under the original building permit with the County.

 

[larry4406]

This is a new build that was completed this past summer. I did the epoxy and asphalt first, now finishing the electric. So still under the original building permit with the County.

Ok so concrete is long since poured. If you did not do a UFER prior to pour and have it inspected you are SOL on this method. You will the need to drive the ground rods. Surprised the foundation passed inspection to be honest without the UFER in place prior to pour.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Here is how I understand it.

With a detached garage if you have a main panel in the home and a subpanel in the garage, if it's fed with a 4 wire conductor, you don't need a separate ground rod at the garage. If it's 3 you do.

For the number of ground rods, 1 is required. If the one doesn't pass the test with a meter, you need a second at least 6 feet away. Most inspectors seem to not want to be bothered to test the rod and just want to see 2 rods.

You seem to have electrodes and grounding conductors confused.

They are 2 different animals and both are required for a detached.

Would be good to read the comment about this subject on the electrical FAQs.

 

[sberry]

Think about a light pole in a parking lot. Often there is a rod driven for them,,, just like a detatched garage. This is for lightening. Reason being,,,,,,,,, we would like to see the strike go to earth rather than be carried back to the original structure via the ground wire, why invite it back in to the building and in to the main service.
Same for the light pole, must have a wire for short circuit but no point in having it carry a strike if it can be helped.

 

[Falcon67]

Im not taking issue- I was just highlighting the ephemeral nature of 'compliance'


Let me ask this: after you sell the house, and then it sells again. How would that new owner find that ufer connection?

(ad yes, I know you were speaking of one of YOUR inspections...)

The new owner opens the panel and either sees a heavy copper leading out somewhere or not. On this house and one other we looked at before purchase, there was no such copper. No UFER snd no rods found. 2001 inspected build too.

 

[ard]

The new owner opens the panel and either sees a heavy copper leading out somewhere or not. On this house and one other we looked at before purchase, there was no such copper. No UFER snd no rods found. 2001 inspected build too.

So your panel isn't grounded.

Not sure how that applies to a specific reply to someone else....

Anyway:

250.68 Grounding Electrode Conductor and Bonding
Jumper Connection to Grounding Electrodes.

(A) Accessibility. All mechanical elements used to terminate
a grounding electrode conductor or bonding jumper to
a grounding electrode shall be accessible.

Exception No. 1: An encased or buried connection to a
concrete-encased, driven, or buried grounding electrode
shall not be required to be accessible.

So if the clamp to a piece of rebar is outside of the concrete, it needs to be accessible. A plaster ring and plate works.


If the wire and clamp is installed before the concrete it (obviously) doesn't need to be accessible.

 

[Falcon67]

So your panel isn't grounded.

Not sure how that applies to a specific reply to someone else....

Wasn't, not isn't. In response to the "how whould you know" - you'd know because you look for it.

 

[ard]

Wasn't, not isn't. In response to the "how whould you know" - you'd know because you look for it.

My point being you might see a wire exit your panel. But this dos NOT let you know WHERE it is connected to the ufer.

I was talking about the ufer connection, NOT the ground wire leaving the panel

 

[BlackJackJim]

Just got off the phone with the county permit office. I wanted to clarify a couple of things, mainly if schedule 80 conduit is needed. But then I asked about ground rods for a detached garage - his answer was you don't need them. To clarify, I ask: "so the ground wire from the main panel is all that it needed, no additional ground rods?" and his answer was "that is correct".

I'm pretty confused now - to me it was a given I needed them, I was only going to ask how many and what type of wire to use.

So what do I do? Put them in anyway? Wait for the inspector to come out and discuss it with him?

I'm also in Fairfax County - and had the same issue years ago when I built my detached garage. Randy Bowman was my inspector and a knowledgeable, helpful sort. While, they do not require a ground rod/UFER gnd for a sub panel fed with a 4-wire system, if you install one, its OK. In my case, I installed both gnd rods and a UFER system also connected to the rebar mesh under the slab.

 

[sberry]

It's ok only cause he says it is. It's highly unlikely someone got a local amendment around this.

 

[mm08822]

I'm also in Fairfax County - and had the same issue years ago when I built my detached garage. Randy Bowman was my inspector and a knowledgeable, helpful sort. While, they do not require a ground rod/UFER gnd for a sub panel fed with a 4-wire system, if you install one, its OK. In my case, I installed both gnd rods and a UFER system also connected to the rebar mesh under the slab.

Looks like it is time Fairfax County sprung for a 2011 NEC Code Book so Randy can stumble across article 250.32.

 

[Jeff590]

I called the County again today and spoke with someone else in the inspections department. He said that 2 ground rods are required for a detached structure (without grounding through rebar)

So I am going to go ahead and put them in. Can't hurt and it seems like it's required by code. I'll ask the inspector who the first guy was when he comes out