Ground wire location in new panel?

[chedv]

Should the bare copper ground wire be connected to its current location or the actual ground bar?

I have a homeline combo box (8 space panel and meter) with a 4 space 200 amp breaker feeding this panel in my new shed. The electrician only ran 3 wire 4/0 feeder back to the combo box. The bare copper wire is an ufer ground into the footer of the new shed.

I believe this is considered a subpanel so no bonding screw and the neutrals and grounds separated?

Thanks.

 

[Terry D]

Your meter/main is you first means of disconnect. The panel your showing is a sub panel. That needs to be a 4 wire feeder. The grounding electrode conductor along with the equipment ground that should. have been ran with the feeder would connect to the ground bar and be isolated from the neutral. The feeder needs to be replaced with a 4 wire

 

[chedv]

Your meter/main is you first means of disconnect. The panel your showing is a sub panel. That needs to be a 4 wire feeder

Yes, I thought that too. However, it’s around a 300 ft trenched run that’s already complete.

 

[Terry D]

Is there also a panel in your house

 

[sparky 1971]

Yes, I thought that too. However, it’s around a 300 ft trenched run that’s already complete.

That would have been legal pre 2008. Unless you are on the 2005 or previous NEC, that shouldn't have passed an inspection, if there was one. Actually, that shouldn't have passed on a 2005 inspection either. The bonding screw should have been installed then. Make him come back and fix it right. I'm sure you paid good money to have it done correctly. Also, I believe that is URD wire, which isn't supposed to be inside a building, that doesn't bother me, I have done that one myself plenty of times, but it's still not right.

 

[Bert_]

This show a complete lack of understanding on the electrician's part. You have to separate the neutral when you run 4 wire.

If you separate the neutral with a 3 wire feed then you have no ground at all. 3 wire service always needs to be bonded.

 

[Terry D]

Is this a new install. Illinois is not a state wide adoption of the NEC. It is governed by each municipality. If you have a breaker in another panel feeding this panel, then this is a sub panel in a detached structure. As Sparky 1971 said, if this was installed prior to 2008 or your jurisdictions NEC adoption is no current than 2005, then this would be legal to have a 3-wire feeder, so you would install the bonding screw. Anything else, this needs to be a 4-wire feeder with a neutral not bonded.

 

[chedv]

Yes, there is also a 200 amp panel in the house that feeds through the feed through lugs off of the combo panel. To my knowledge, it’s also 3 wire URD. House was built in 2014. Shed is new, just wired 2 weeks ago.

I can’t easily pull a 4th wire. How can I hook this up more correctly?

 

[Bert_]

Yes, these is also a 200 amp panel in the house that feeds through the feed through lugs off of the combo panel. To my knowledge, it’s also 3 wire URD. House was built in 2014. Shed is new, just wired 2 weeks ago.

I can’t easily pull a 4th wire. How can I hook this up more correctly?

Put the bonding screw in

 

[chedv]

Put the bonding screw in

Ok, thanks. Once I put in, do I change the location of the ground wire? Do the neutrals and grounds from the individual circuits need to be separated at that point?

Thanks again guys. I’ve read enough on here to know something wasn’t quite right.

 

[Terry D]

Yes definitely put the bonding screw in, you can leave the ground where it is at. This is not the correct way,but it will be grounded at least. Is this getting inspected

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yes, these is also a 200 amp panel in the house that feeds through the feed through lugs off of the combo panel. To my knowledge, it’s also 3 wire URD. House was built in 2014. Shed is new, just wired 2 weeks ago.

I can’t easily pull a 4th wire. How can I hook this up more correctly?

Does the URD run inside the structures? if so that is wrong as well. it is not an NEC recognized cable type.

The main service panel or first means of disconnect can get a 3-wire service entrance cable. after that it needs to be 4-wire.

Why would you have to pull anything? the electrician should be fixing this. the only correct way to do this is by pulling an EGC from the main panel. make them do it as they screwed up and you paid them to do the job correctly. also if this was inspected the inspector failed you

Is there any metallic pathways between the shed and house? (Metal conduit, phone or cable line, gas or water line, etc) if so, then you cannot bond the neutral with the ground screw. this will create a parallel pathway for neutral return current

 

[chedv]

Yes definitely put the bonding screw in, you can leave the ground where it is at. This is not the correct way,but it will be grounded at least. Is this getting inspected

No, it is not getting inspected.

 

[chedv]

Does the URD run inside the structures? if so that is wrong as well. it is not an NEC recognized cable type.

The main service panel or first means of disconnect can get a 3-wire service entrance cable. after that it needs to be 4-wire.

Why would you have to pull anything? the electrician should be fixing this. the only correct way to do this is by pulling an EGC from the main panel. make them do it as they screwed up and you paid them to do the job correctly. also if this was inspected the inspector failed you

Is there any metallic pathways between the shed and house? (Metal conduit, phone or cable line, gas or water line, etc) if so, then you cannot bond the neutral with the ground screw. this will create a parallel pathway for neutral return current

URD runs into the shed panel. URD terminates on the side of the house in a Ronk transfer switch.

Since I have a combo panel, would both the house and the shed be considered subpanels? Since I can turn off the breaker running to the the shed and the house at the combo box.

I did pull a pvc conduit from the house to the shed. As of now, it’s only a fiber optic line that’s connected. I did pull cat6 and coax, but they aren’t connected, and might never be.

 

[sparky 1971]

Yes, the house and shed are both subpanels. If the house has a three wire feed as stated above, make sure the bonding screw is installed there too. If it's not installed and not laying in the bottom of the panel, you might be able to buy one. I don't know, I have never tried. You could also jump a piece of #6 or #4 copper wire from the neutral bus to the ground bar. I've done that once when the bonding screw wouldn't go in.

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it if the panels are bonded, there are more sub panels out there with three wire feeds than there are with four wire. I would be beyond upset about paying someone to do it wrong though.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

No, it is not getting inspected.

regardless of inspection it needs to be done properly. an inspection just gives some hope of wrong wiring being corrected.

URD runs into the shed panel. URD terminates on the side of the house in a Ronk transfer switch.

Since I have a combo panel, would both the house and the shed be considered subpanels? Since I can turn off the breaker running to the the shed and the house at the combo box.

I did pull a pvc conduit from the house to the shed. As of now, it’s only a fiber optic line that’s connected. I did pull cat6 and coax, but they aren’t connected, and might never be.

The URD inside the building is not kosher

The combination meter main service panel is NOT a subpanel. it is your main panel with a bonded neutral since it has the service meter on it....

The transfer switch only feeds your shed?

Yes, the house and shed are both subpanels. If the house has a three wire feed as stated above, make sure the bonding screw is installed there too. If it's not installed and not laying in the bottom of the panel, you might be able to buy one. I don't know, I have never tried. You could also jump a piece of #6 or #4 copper wire from the neutral bus to the ground bar. I've done that once when the bonding screw wouldn't go in.

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it if the panels are bonded, there are more sub panels out there with three wire feeds than there are with four wire. I would be beyond upset about paying someone to do it wrong.

How is the house meter main combo panel a subpanel? it has the meter pan integrated in it. it cant be a subpanel....

 

[sparky 1971]

How is the house meter main combo panel a subpanel? it has the meter pan integrated in it. it cant be a subpanel....

Maybe I read it wrong, but I think he has a 200 amp panel in the house fed off the lugs of the meter main. See post #8.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Maybe I read it wrong, but I think he has a 200 amp panel in the house fed off the lugs of the meter main. See post #8.

aww yeah i read that too fast. youre correct

The subpanel inside the house DEFINITELY needs to be fixed. you cannot feed a subpanel in the same structure as the main with 3-wire feeder. this setups a dangerous potential for neutral current to flow on pathways that it shouldnt flow on

 

[chedv]

aww yeah i read that too fast. youre correct

The subpanel inside the house DEFINITELY needs to be fixed. you cannot feed a subpanel in the same structure as the main with 3-wire feeder. this setups a dangerous potential for neutral current to flow on pathways that it shouldnt flow on

The shed isn’t fed from the house. The meter/combo box has a 200 amp feed thru lug to the house. It also has a 200 amp branch feeder breaker that feeds the new shed. There is nothing metal connecting the house to the shed.

Basically a 250’ run to the house. Now a new separate 300’ run in the opposite direction to the shed. The pole meter is in the middle.

 

[chedv]

Yes, the house and shed are both subpanels. If the house has a three wire feed as stated above, make sure the bonding screw is installed there too. If it's not installed and not laying in the bottom of the panel, you might be able to buy one. I don't know, I have never tried. You could also jump a piece of #6 or #4 copper wire from the neutral bus to the ground bar. I've done that once when the bonding screw wouldn't go in.

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it if the panels are bonded, there are more sub panels out there with three wire feeds than there are with four wire. I would be beyond upset about paying someone to do it wrong though.

Thanks. you do make me feel better about the setup. It is frustrating that if they would have just used 4 wire feeder, I’d be good to go. I’ll get the bonding screw in.

 

[sparky 1971]

Thanks. you do make me feel better about the setup. It is frustrating that if they would have just used 4 wire feeder, I’d be good to go. I’ll get the bonding screw in.

I didn't think of something earlier. If the meter main and the panel in the house are piped together with metal conduit, that metal pipe is the ground. Do not install the bonding screw if that is the case.

Nevermind. I just read your above post that the meter main is 200+ feet away. No way that's a metal pipe. Make sure the bonding screw is instalked.

 

[chedv]

I didn't think of something earlier. If the meter main and the panel in the house are piped together with metal conduit, that metal pipe is the ground. Do not install the bonding screw if that is the case.

Nope. It’s direct burial URD.

 

[Terry D]

Could you post a picture of your meter. Is this utility owned. Who is your utility. I was thinking the meter qas on your house. I have been in some rural areas where the meter is out on the pole with a breaker, and the house is feed with a 3-wire feeder

 

[sparky 1971]

Could you post a picture of your meter. Is this utility owned. Who is your utility. I was thinking the meter qas on your house. I have been in some rural areas where the meter is out on the pole with a breaker, and the house is feed with a 3-wire feeder

I thought the same thing with back to back meter and panel. It's on a pole in the middle of nowhere. 250' from the house and 300' from the shed with three wire feeders to both. He's going to make sure the house panel is bonded now.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

ok so i was confused on the original setup.

Both feeders need to be 4-wire

however you mentioned there is a transfer switch. this can complicate things

can you post a picture of the inside of the transfer switch

 

[chedv]

Could you post a picture of your meter. Is this utility owned. Who is your utility. I was thinking the meter qas on your house. I have been in some rural areas where the meter is out on the pole with a breaker, and the house is feed with a 3-wire feeder

I own it. It was installed in 2016. I’ll put the invoice. Yes, I believe that’s what I have. Meter out on the pole and 3 wire to the house. But also, now, 3 wire ran to the shed via the 4 space 200 amp breaker. (The 50 amp breaker is a 3 wire URD to a small garden shed)

 

[Bert_]

Honestly there's nothing I would be worried about other than getting the bonding screws put in any panel that has a 3 wire feed.

 

[Terry D]

Makes more sense now. Your meter main on the pole is your main service. Neutral is bonded to ground out there. it looks like your area is allowing a 3-wire to still be ran to out buildings, but I would still check. Since that is probably the case, the bonding screws need to be installed in the rest of the sub panels in your house , the existing shed and the new shed. Since you have the boning screw for the new shed, you are set for that. If the others are not installed or missing, you would need to install a # 4 copper jumper for the house panel and a # 8 copper jumper for the existing shed panel. These would connect from a lug on your neutral buss to the ground bar or a lug mounted to the metal enclosure.

 

[chedv]

Thanks all for your help. One last question. If I do run a small subpanel from this panel in my shed, to the opposite side of my shed (same structure) should it be 4 wire?

 

[sparky 1971]

Thanks all for your help. One last question. If I do run a small subpanel from this panel in my shed, to the opposite side of my shed (same structure) should it be 4 wire?

yes

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Thanks all for your help. One last question. If I do run a small subpanel from this panel in my shed, to the opposite side of my shed (same structure) should it be 4 wire?

theres wiring diagrams in the Electrical FAQ sticky