sberry
Banned
Is this now the norm and should it be added during a re wire? In a bedroom or hallway switchbox?
Grounded conductor in switch loop?
- Thread starter sberry
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ishiboo
Well-known member
Two grounded conductors! You need a neutral and a ground. 
14-3 to switch boxes these days.
14-3 to switch boxes these days.
pattenp
Well-known member
It's code to have a neutral within a switch box. I think if doing a rewire the neutral would need to be added.
Not in a lighting branch circuit. Only switch the current carrying conductor (hot wire)... The neutral (grounded conductor) passes through the junction box the switch is in along with the ground wire. The switch needs to be ground.
If you are rewiring a bedroom, the Code now calls for arc fault breakers in bedroom circuits....
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If you are rewiring a bedroom, the Code now calls for arc fault breakers in bedroom circuits....
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ishiboo
Well-known member
Ok. Try this. In the switch box, the hot wire gets switched. The neutral is spliced through to the light and not switched. The ground wire is spliced through and the box and the switch is grounded.
In a bedroom, lighting and power branch circuits must now be on an arc fault circuit breaker.
Make sense?
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In a bedroom, lighting and power branch circuits must now be on an arc fault circuit breaker.
Make sense?
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pattenp
Well-known member
What are you talking about? Code now requires that a neutral be available in switch boxes. If the box only contains a switch loop then a neutral needs to be added. If the neutral is not used then it's just capped off.
Didn't I say the neutral passes through to the light, but is not switched? You do not switch the neutral in a lighting circuit.
Maybe I should have added the following:
If there is not a neutral there now, then yes, it needs to be added...
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ishiboo
Well-known member
Sure. But the question was a switch loop... where one cable comes to the switch and it does NOT pass through.
Ok, let me try again.
Sometimes I take it for granted that people understand my rantings.
My understanding is that there is an existing switch box that contains a switch, a hot wire and a ground wire, but no grounded conductor (neutral).
If you are re wiring, then yes, you need to add a neutral wire.
The proper way to wire a switch and a light fixture is to take the hot/neutral/ground wires to the switch first, then go from the switch box to the light fixture with a hot/neutral/ground. The hot wire is switched. The neutral passes through and the ground goes to the box/switch and light.
If the switch loop consists of just two wires and a ground from the light fixture to the switch, with the one wire being the hot and the other being the switch leg, then a neutral needs to be taken to the switch box.
I just assume everybody feeds the switch... Not the light... To me, that is the proper way to do it. My bad.
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wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Two grounded conductors! You need a neutral and a ground.
14-3 to switch boxes these days.
A ground/EGC is called a grounding conductor NOT a grounded conductor, which is a neutral...
And u know what assuming means!
Not every light switch is fed power first. Many houses have switch loops and therefore if under current code requires a neutral to be added!And u know what assuming means!
Yep... Thats pretty much what I said. That's why I hate doing Old Work....
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joel63
Well-known member
A ground/EGC is called a grounding conductor NOT a grounded conductor, which is a neutral...
And u know what assuming means!
And the reason for this neutral is.........................????????
teamextreme
Well-known member
Reason is a new code requirement in latest code revision. From what I understand it's due to many of the new smart/fancy switches that require a neutral to work.
Sorry about being rude earlier. I was on my way to this. At first this looked like a mess, the more I look and uncover I realize what they did and a couple circuits did have a switch fed and some a switch loop so I was waling around with a tester uncovering this etc/
I finally uncovered it and it all makes sense but they switched grounded conductors in loops and in a loop to a switched outlet as well as the 3ways which consist of an added single wire. All twisted and soldered with loose box clamps.
I am even going to rework a little of my own rework here but even with tight holes have been able to pull some around corners which is going to save some work.
When did grounding come in? They wired the whole thing 12/2, had to be some out dated wire someone found then? I am basically replacing everything but a little in some 3 ways and anything that is connected to fixtures and using most new boxes as these are way too small.
It would be slightly easier to feed fixtures in this case and put loops back in, I got some 3 wire to bring a N to them. How common are new gadgets?
I finally uncovered it and it all makes sense but they switched grounded conductors in loops and in a loop to a switched outlet as well as the 3ways which consist of an added single wire. All twisted and soldered with loose box clamps.
I am even going to rework a little of my own rework here but even with tight holes have been able to pull some around corners which is going to save some work.
When did grounding come in? They wired the whole thing 12/2, had to be some out dated wire someone found then? I am basically replacing everything but a little in some 3 ways and anything that is connected to fixtures and using most new boxes as these are way too small.
It would be slightly easier to feed fixtures in this case and put loops back in, I got some 3 wire to bring a N to them. How common are new gadgets?
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Milton Shaw
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Most of the motion sensor switches require a neutral to work. And this is why the requirement is now code. I have some switch loops but most of mine are power to switch first and then to light. Any new circuits I added are power to switch first but the originals in the house were mostly switch loops.
joel63
Well-known member
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Man sberry. U sure do seem to find the messy electrical jobs out there!
It wasn't as messy as it first appeared, just old and had a frugal use of wire and used a couple different methods of switching. Once I figured out the plan they used it is way simple but they made a couple fundamental mistakes and now its going to get replaced and done with and getting ground as well as modern wire.
I was wondering what one would put in and motion detector hadn't occurred to me.
As a curiosity what year did NEC bring ground wire in? It seems phased in maybe,,, at first kitchen and laundry, as I recall some old secondary had very small wire?
I replaced a wire earlier in this house where a handyman installed a new water heater and had intentionally clipped the ground wire off as he did in so many jobs he worked on,,, no need for a fancy new fangled thing. Its some of his signature work around the area. There was a gob of old box stuff too, instead of going direct to the panel went thru that stuff which I had abandoned and replaced with new wire.
I was wondering what one would put in and motion detector hadn't occurred to me.
As a curiosity what year did NEC bring ground wire in? It seems phased in maybe,,, at first kitchen and laundry, as I recall some old secondary had very small wire?
I replaced a wire earlier in this house where a handyman installed a new water heater and had intentionally clipped the ground wire off as he did in so many jobs he worked on,,, no need for a fancy new fangled thing. Its some of his signature work around the area. There was a gob of old box stuff too, instead of going direct to the panel went thru that stuff which I had abandoned and replaced with new wire.
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wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
I think grounding was introduced in the 50's which was long before my time....an older sparky would know for sure! NORCAL???
Here is another question, maybe 2. Anything special in the wiring in regards to arc fault? Second, there is city water comes in via at least a section of steel pipe. I might stick 100A on since I have a panel but is the ground wire to the water pipe have to be 4? I know for 200 it is but can I use 6 for 100?
Zeke
Well-known member
Diagrams would help these threads a lot.
If I am not mistaken you can use 8 to a rod with 100A service and 6 to 200. When the water entrance is metal its sposed to be a 4 for 200. What is the new rebar requirement wire size? Footer steel or uffer. In a modular I did the frame was steel, I seem to remember reading distinctly about it being 6 for 200 and old mobiles always had smaller bonds, likely an 8 but seems some were 10? The panels were probably 50A service.
tfi racing
Well-known member
I think some people may have their definitions of a "neutral" a little mixed up...
Alchymist
Well-known member
What's really fun is old wiring on a 3 way - where there is no EGC, and the wiring between boxes consist of an old two wire pre-NM (cloth covered) cable and one single strand alongside it, AND THEN the switching circuit includes switching the neutral as well as the hot. Took me a while to figute that one out.
Some people on here handing out advice have more than that mixed up.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
U need to read through NEC 250.66 including T250.66...too much to type!
I feel ya on that one. Ive had to diagnose a circuit like that before. Takes a long time!
I really wondered if 6 was sufficient.
The whole place was 12/2 and now going to run lights on 14
I really had to anyway but now uncovered it all and see what they di
d. With ther mistakes I was hard to keep track of it from meter and light testing, once I got it figured out there is a big difference and its been a while since I really root around houses someone else wired.
I was not that familiar as it was anyway, not that I havnt done work or used romex hadn't been thru a lot of remodel and it takes a bit to get in the mindset.
I am about pretty much a single circuit type anyway and no one whips up on me with service install but get more than 3 wires in something and I am about lost.
I can get lost with 3.
Ha,, welcome to my world. Same here, single red wire and switched commons and in a simple switch loop for the living room recept had switched the hot but returned it to the wide side. Had some fixture bases live as I recall. As I was running around with a tester something wasn't adding up, at first I didn't want to disturb it but you couldn't pull out the devices without fixing problems and then re using the old recepts as well as not having ground. Now brought in new wire and some 3 conductor and I guess I will feed the switches with N and new wire 90 degree wire to all the fixtures.
The whole place was 12/2 and now going to run lights on 14
I really had to anyway but now uncovered it all and see what they di
d. With ther mistakes I was hard to keep track of it from meter and light testing, once I got it figured out there is a big difference and its been a while since I really root around houses someone else wired.
I was not that familiar as it was anyway, not that I havnt done work or used romex hadn't been thru a lot of remodel and it takes a bit to get in the mindset.
I am about pretty much a single circuit type anyway and no one whips up on me with service install but get more than 3 wires in something and I am about lost.
I can get lost with 3.
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Alchymist
Well-known member
Most complicated I have had recently (electrical, electronics gets REAL complex) involved 2 overhead fan/light combinations that had to be 3 way controlled for each set, with special fan/light controls in the same box. Had one 3 way and one fan control in each of 2 locations, IIRC. Lots of 14-3 in those!
I just got back, finished pulling to the outlets and got all but the home runs in which are short. Tore a couple walls apart to get to a couple problems we really couldnt pull. Next trip will be new to the lights and switches and to a porch light. I am going with switched light in living room vs a switched recept, just simpler.
Yes its got a whole knot of 3 ways, I got a secret weapon though that helps me.
Yes its got a whole knot of 3 ways, I got a secret weapon though that helps me.