Grounding Rod Pounder

[kaffine]

Mr Trees has made nothing but good points. This one alone is a reason to not do the panel if you do not know what he is talking about.

In a nutshell: One white neutral wire can service 2 hot wires, one from each side of the panel On older homes, it can be harder to discern which hots and which neutral make a particular multiwire circuit.

Here is the panel problem: If you don't know which hots are multiwired to make a particular multiwire circuit, you can't have safe over-protection. Specifically, if neutral connection in a multiwire is broken, hot wires will carry 240 volts. For this reason, mutiwire hots have to be tied together so if one trips, the other does too.

I use double pole breakers when I run a multiwire circuit. Some jurisdictions allow mechanical ties between the breakers. If you trip one breaker to say, change an outlet, and the neutrals are not pig-tailed (and they won't be on an old house) you can send 240 volts down the other hot wire that isn't switched off.

If you can't accurately identify which (if any) wires are multiwired then you can't put them on a double pole breaker.

If you don't know what a 'multiwire' circuit is, I'd at least hire an electrician to label the old box and ID multiwire circuits before you start.

No you can't send 240 volts to equipment on a MWBC if one of the breakers is off and the other is on. You can get electrocuted working on the neutral as it is still carrying current from the other breaker.

 

[Lightman 1]

My question is, what do you guys use to pound in the grounding rods? I think a rotary hammer would work, but I would need a special "pounding tool" to fit the rotary hammer and to fit on the grounding rod. What are your recommendations for this these two things?

I have always used a homemade driver. Like a post driver. After I run out of room with the driver I finish it off with a hammer. My driver was made from an 18" piece of schedule 120 1" pipe with an end piece and a couple of handles welded on.

They make a ground rod adaptor for most large hammer drills and rotary hammers. But if you are not in rocky terrain I would not buy one for a one time use. They do work really well. But they need electricity and you are having the power cut off!

You didn't ask for this advice but I'll just say that these kind of jobs hardly ever go perfectly smooth. Lots of things can go wrong. Most of the surprises will be bad ones. Long ago electricians would bring wire into the panel from all 4 directions. This is a nightmare when trying to get the old panel out. Sometimes the branch circuit wires have to be spliced. Thats additional time and material. Sometimes the load wires from the meter to the panel are not long enough to reach either. And sometimes they may be impossible or nearly impossible to replace. The nasty surprises go on and on. Anyway, try to think of anything you can do before the power is cut. Drive those ground rods. Uncover the panel and make sure there is a pipe ****** between the meter and panel. Or conduit. Maybe even open the new panel up to see if the layout is the same as the old one.

Well, thats enough gloom and doom! Good Luck on this!

 

[egdede]

No you can't send 240 volts to equipment on a MWBC if one of the breakers is off and the other is on. You can get electrocuted working on the neutral as it is still carrying current from the other breaker.

I'm sorry, I was wrong, and this is right. I had been working 12 hours, and just wanted the OP to be safe.

With multiwires, if the neutral is broken, and both hots are switched open, then you can have 240 volts down each hot.

My main point was old multiwire circuits bring issues that the OP better bone up on.

 

[James-W]

I'm sorry, I was wrong, and this is right. I had been working 12 hours, and just wanted the OP to be safe.

With multiwires, if the neutral is broken, and both hots are switched open, then you can have 240 volts down each hot.

My main point was old multiwire circuits bring issues that the OP better bone up on.

Thank you for thinking about my safety, I appreciate that. I am well aware of what you are talking about and it won't cause any issues.

It is possible the service panel is grounded, my friend said he didn't think it was, but he wasn't sure. Until I know for sure I am going under the assumption that is is NOT grounded. I would go there and check it out, but it is a little over 42 miles one way and I don't really feel like driving all that way. I could call the girl (or her husband) and ask her, but I am not sure they could tell me for certain if the panel was grounded correctly. Still, I guess it wouldn't hurt to call them though.

 

[Lightman 1]

I'm sorry, I was wrong, and this is right. I had been working 12 hours, and just wanted the OP to be safe.

With multiwires, if the neutral is broken, and both hots are switched open, then you can have 240 volts down each hot.

My main point was old multiwire circuits bring issues that the OP better bone up on.

There is a lot of confusion on 3 wire circuits. If the neutral is lost while the circuit is in use the voltage can go up or down on either leg. This depends on the load. But you should never have more that 240 volts total between the two hot legs. You might have 200 volts on one and 40 on another but the total will be what you started with. The neutral cuts the 240 volts in half and holds it there. IE, 120 volts to ground on each hot leg, 240 volts from hot to hot.

There are advantages of voltage drop on 3 wire circuits but the problems that can be caused were never worth it to me.

 

[engineer2]

Last time I did a ground rod I sharpened the tip, and then used my air hammer to drive it in without a problem.
SE WI and northern IL soils are mostly clay, with more glacial deposit rocks as you go north and west. Random rocks can be any size from gravel to the size of a car. Generally sandy soil near Lake Michigan and riverbeds.

 

[alfredeneuman]

I once had the 'pleasure' of driving 140' sectional ground rod in the center of a building that produced telecom products (Ma Bell's specs).
The sections were 10' X 1"dia, threaded on the ends, and the driver was supplied with it.
It took us 2 days with a 65# electric jackhammer, and we never hit rock.
It was a nightmare

 

[Miss the Pontiacs]

Could you please we a grounding plate similar to pic. That is all I had to use and since the power was buried I had the hole and material to cover it.

Another time when I moved a building and to leave the site totally cleaned up as to show no traces of a existing building. I pulled the ground rod and the first 4 feet were exactly as new. The remainder v’ed down into the most perfect spear tip possible and disappeared to nothingness. I don’t think you could have machined it any better.

 

[finn]

Step ladder and a short handled sledge worked for me.

I was somewhat surprised at how easily it went in.

All sand here, though.

 

[Captain Spaulding]

Maybe. It depends on your ground conditions.

Manual labor and water. No tools required...unless at the very end when you need to pound in the last few inches.
CD

^This

I’ve put in dozens of them with my bare hands and a jar of water. Easy and fast.

 

[Lightman 1]

Well its Friday! I wonder how the OP came out on his job? I hope it went well for him.

 

[Marctrees]

I predict AYCE Deer meat on the BBQ lit w Tiki Torches !

Washed down w ambient temp Leinenkugels.

Marc

 

[James-W]

It is Friday and I am finally home from pretty long day. My buddy picked me up this morning at 7:30am and we loaded up his vehicle with tools and then went out for breakfast. After we got something to eat we drove to his daughter's house, about an hour drive, and we got there right after the electric company had come and disconnected the meter. They also disconnected power at the pole as well just in case we had to replace the wires inside the meter base going into the service panel. Turns out we didn't have to replace the wires because they were long enough to reach the main circuit breaker.

I ripped out the two panels and installed the new panel. While I did that, my buddy and his daughter's husband did their thing with the grounding rods. Once we were done, we called for the inspection. We were told the inspector was out on another inspection, but he would be there within the hour.

An hour and a half later we were still waiting, so the girl's husband called the city office to find out what the holdup was. He was told the inspector was having all sorts if problems with the inspection he was doing because there so many issues it was taking a LOT longer than expected.

SO, the head guy in the inspectors office told us to take pictures of the new service panel and the grounding rods with the grounding wire and email them to him. So we did. He ten called us and said that everything looked really good, except that we had the wrong grounding clamps on the grounding rods. We had the used indoor type clamps rather than the outdoor type. So we went to the hardware store and got the right grounding clamps, installed them, then sent him pictures to show what we had done.

He said that everything look perfect and he passed us without anyone coming to do a physical inspection. He then called the power company and sent them a "passed inspection" certificate and then the power company came and hooked up the power.

I then hooked up all the circuits, which took awhile, and everything worked perfectly. With everything working OK we took a break, had a couple beers, and the my buddy and I left. We stopped at a restaurant and had a bite to eat, then left and went home.

All in all, a very good day. Not much went wrong, the biggest issue we had was the waiting for an inspector who never did show up. I don't know what we could have done to speed up the inspection process. But in any case the job is done and everyone seems to be happy.

 

[Slowgsr]

Good work.

Next time just pull the mains out, tape em up, old panel off, new panel on, untape your mains and hook er up!

Kidding actually don't do that.

I'm glad I don't do residential, id hate having to deal with that to get a service energized.

Just did one today. 200a 600/347 incoming main switch, fed from base building switchgear, 4ft splitter, a pair of disconnects for some rtu's, another pair for electric heat, a 60amp for a 45kva I hung up that fed a 84cct panel and that fed a 42cct beside it.
Took me and my apprentice 2 good days. Finished, turn it on, check voltages and off to the races!


The residential services that have a disconnect at the point of entry prior to the panel are always handy.

 

[dogdog]

..................

I ripped out the two panels and installed the new panel. While I did that, my buddy and his daughter's husband did their thing with the grounding rods. Once we were done, we called for the inspection. We were told the inspector was out on another inspection, but he would be there within the hour.
............

so did they used a rotary hammer and driver or old fashion hammer and water.?

 

[James-W]

so did they used a rotary hammer and driver or old fashion hammer and water.?

They didn't use a rotary hammer drill, they just pounded the grounding rods in with a BFH. They ddn't need water, the ground is already soaked from all the rains we have been getting as of late. One grounding rod went in pretty east, but the second one they must have hit a rock because it stopped them for a few minutes. But they kept pounding and I guess the rod knocked the rock out of the way because it started going into the ground again.

I think I will buy a rotary hammer drill just so I have one. I am pretty sure I can use it for other things than just pounding in grounding rods.

 

[Diesel Dan]

Good work.

Next time just pull the mains out, tape em up, old panel off, new panel on, untape your mains and hook er up!

Kidding actually don't do that.

Done that more than once at my own place.
And they want me to be the "safety star" at work

Had to repair a meter base at 1am once that burned out one leg. Luckily it was a stack of 3 where only the first was used anymore so I robbed parts from one of the others.

Sounds like it all went pretty smooth in the end.

 

[Lightman 1]

It is Friday and I am finally home from pretty long day. My buddy picked me up this morning at 7:30am and we loaded up his vehicle with tools and then went out for breakfast. After we got something to eat we drove to his daughter's house, about an hour drive, and we got there right after the electric company had come and disconnected the meter. They also disconnected power at the pole as well just in case we had to replace the wires inside the meter base going into the service panel. Turns out we didn't have to replace the wires because they were long enough to reach the main circuit breaker.

I ripped out the two panels and installed the new panel. While I did that, my buddy and his daughter's husband did their thing with the grounding rods. Once we were done, we called for the inspection. We were told the inspector was out on another inspection, but he would be there within the hour.

An hour and a half later we were still waiting, so the girl's husband called the city office to find out what the holdup was. He was told the inspector was having all sorts if problems with the inspection he was doing because there so many issues it was taking a LOT longer than expected.

SO, the head guy in the inspectors office told us to take pictures of the new service panel and the grounding rods with the grounding wire and email them to him. So we did. He ten called us and said that everything looked really good, except that we had the wrong grounding clamps on the grounding rods. We had the used indoor type clamps rather than the outdoor type. So we went to the hardware store and got the right grounding clamps, installed them, then sent him pictures to show what we had done.

He said that everything look perfect and he passed us without anyone coming to do a physical inspection. He then called the power company and sent them a "passed inspection" certificate and then the power company came and hooked up the power.

I then hooked up all the circuits, which took awhile, and everything worked perfectly. With everything working OK we took a break, had a couple beers, and the my buddy and I left. We stopped at a restaurant and had a bite to eat, then left and went home.

All in all, a very good day. Not much went wrong, the biggest issue we had was the waiting for an inspector who never did show up. I don't know what we could have done to speed up the inspection process. But in any case the job is done and everyone seems to be happy.

Glad it went well for you. These kinds of jobs can range from going really well to having lots of nasty surprises.

 

[rburke65]

We used to use a sledge hammer.

 

[Marctrees]

Very good to hear it went well.

Still wondering if everything got done correctly...

Just cause it works does not mean it is right.

Just being realistic.

But glad OP was not responsible for an AYCE Deer BBQ !!

Marc

Leinie

 

[PugetDude]

It is Friday and I am finally home from pretty long day. My buddy picked me up this morning at 7:30am and we loaded up his vehicle with tools and then went out for breakfast. After we got something to eat we drove to his daughter's house, about an hour drive, and we got there right after the electric company had come and disconnected the meter. They also disconnected power at the pole as well just in case we had to replace the wires inside the meter base going into the service panel. Turns out we didn't have to replace the wires because they were long enough to reach the main circuit breaker.

I ripped out the two panels and installed the new panel. While I did that, my buddy and his daughter's husband did their thing with the grounding rods. Once we were done, we called for the inspection. We were told the inspector was out on another inspection, but he would be there within the hour.

An hour and a half later we were still waiting, so the girl's husband called the city office to find out what the holdup was. He was told the inspector was having all sorts if problems with the inspection he was doing because there so many issues it was taking a LOT longer than expected.

SO, the head guy in the inspectors office told us to take pictures of the new service panel and the grounding rods with the grounding wire and email them to him. So we did. He ten called us and said that everything looked really good, except that we had the wrong grounding clamps on the grounding rods. We had the used indoor type clamps rather than the outdoor type. So we went to the hardware store and got the right grounding clamps, installed them, then sent him pictures to show what we had done.

He said that everything look perfect and he passed us without anyone coming to do a physical inspection. He then called the power company and sent them a "passed inspection" certificate and then the power company came and hooked up the power.

I then hooked up all the circuits, which took awhile, and everything worked perfectly. With everything working OK we took a break, had a couple beers, and the my buddy and I left. We stopped at a restaurant and had a bite to eat, then left and went home.

All in all, a very good day. Not much went wrong, the biggest issue we had was the waiting for an inspector who never did show up. I don't know what we could have done to speed up the inspection process. But in any case the job is done and everyone seems to be happy.

Usually the anxiety of planning for the unknown far exceeds the difficulty of execution. Glad it all went well.

 

[James-W]

Very good to hear it went well.

Still wondering if everything got done correctly...

Just cause it works does not mean it is right.

Just being realistic.

But glad OP was not responsible for an AYCE Deer BBQ !!

Marc

Leinie

As far as I know, everything we did was to code. We took pictures from different angles, some close up shots, some shots from further back, and we tried to get pictures that were in focus and showed everything possible. The outside pictures of the grounding rods showed the depth we dug the trench, the distance the rods were apart, the pipe coming out of the ground and into the house, as well as the size of the grounding wire.

If someone had physically topped by to check it out, he/she would have seen exactly the same thing.

Once the city inspector's office passed the service, we then wired the panel according to code, at least I am fairly certain it was according to code. I am not an electrician so I can't say for an absolute certainty it was done exactly according to code. But here is the thing, I wired my garage's electrical panel and the city inspector came and inspected everything, the wiring, the outlets, the service panel, etc. He said that everything was perfect and he also said that I did a better job than most of the electricians in the area. So I figure that since I wired up this panel just like I did the service panel in my garage, everything should be done according to code.

 

[James-W]

Usually the anxiety of planning for the unknown far exceeds the difficulty of execution. Glad it all went well.

I concur totally. I probably do worry way too much and I dwell on things that may never happen, but sometimes it is hard not to worry about potential problems.