Gutter Snow Damage

[jimp]

I live in the KC area and have a metal roof on my shop and had gutters until last week. The last couple of weeks we got more snow than normal and the snow and ice ripped my gutters off the shop. At one time I had a sheet of snow and ice hanging almost 8 feet, if it had not ripped the gutters off I would have thought it was cool.

I do not want to put snow retainers on the roof (don't want the snow to build up and cause the roof to collapse if we have a really snowy winter).

I am considering lowering the gutters and maybe adding gutter guards.

Has anyone fixed this problem by doing something else?

 

[#1SomeGuy]

Smartscreen?

 

[Schleprock]

How about gutter heaters?

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/cat...ctedCatgry=SEARCH+ALL&relatedSearch=heat+tape

 

[Nostraquedeo]

I doubt we have another winter snow storm like this again....it's probably a 100 year deal, so no need to go overboard......just my two cents.....

 

[IHI]

ice damns are 100% caused by inadequate insulation and lack of/improper attic venting....put your money there. If I were strictly in the insulation business I would spend part of my winter time driving around taking pictures of houses with ice dams and then contacting these folks come spring to try and sell them a solution to make the problem go away and save them money year around.

 

[Gary S]

ice damns are 100% caused by inadequate insulation and lack of/improper attic venting....put your money there. If I were strictly in the insulation business I would spend part of my winter time driving around taking pictures of houses with ice dams and then contacting these folks come spring to try and sell them a solution to make the problem go away and save them money year around.

I agree. Is your shop well insulated? Is it heated? A heated building with poor or no insulation is inviting this kind of damage.
An unheated building doesn't have this problem. A heated building that is well insulated doesn't have this problem.

 

[Buckgnarly]

I do not think he is tlaking about ice dams, just snow ripping off gutters.

One of hte first things I noticed when I moved up to VT was no one has gutters. After seeing the snow slide off and curl like you said I realized why. Gutters would get ripped off all the time up here, if you do not get storms like that much where you are you might want to just live with it on teh rare cases it happens. I have not heard of a foolproof way of preventing this though.

 

[Tim The Tool Man]

ice damns are 100% caused by inadequate insulation and lack of/improper attic venting....put your money there. If I were strictly in the insulation business I would spend part of my winter time driving around taking pictures of houses with ice dams and then contacting these folks come spring to try and sell them a solution to make the problem go away and save them money year around.

^Mostly this but with heavy snows you will get build up no matter what. Unfortunately there is no gutter treatment short of snow birds that is going to keep heavy snows from sliding off the roof and crushing your gutters. I lived most of my life in Buffalo so I am some what of an expert on the subject.

I would recommend you have a look at your roofing specs or at least local building codes to see what the snow load rating was for your roof/trusses when they were built and then make your decision on those snow birds.

I have plenty of insulation under my steel roof and yet the heavy snows have a way of sliding off in one big sheet once the sun hits my roof. Ever since I installed my snow birds, that has stopped happening.

They work!

 

[IHI]

^Mostly this but with heavy snows you will get build up no matter what. Unfortunately there is no gutter treatment short of snow birds that is going to keep heavy snows from sliding off the roof and crushing your gutters. I lived most of my life in Buffalo so I am some what of an expert on the subject.

I would recommend you have a look at your roofing specs or at least local building codes to see what the snow load rating was for your roof/trusses when they were built and then make your decision on those snow birds.

I have plenty of insulation under my steel roof and yet the heavy snows have a way of sliding off in one big sheet once the sun hits my roof. Ever since I installed my snow birds, that has stopped happening.

They work!

We've gotten 2- 15" snow falls at a single time this winter followed by next day with sun and 20* temps, then dip to single digits or below zero the next night...want to guess how many ice damn my house and buildings have had since I bought and redid the place....zero. My house is a hip roof, one side faces south with no tree cover so it gets everything mother nature throws at it...never an ice problem, never had gutters loosened or ripped off.

Having gutters get weighed down, fall down, "ripped off the house" is 100% related to insulation and venting and winter time is the PERFECT time to look at homes to see exactly which ones have major problems that need addressed.

 

[Outlander]

Living this right now.....entire rear complete snow build up slipped off last week, killing all my gutters.

So, are you saying that my roof is under insulated and therefore I melt the snow and turn it to ice?

I will be better prepared next year with a) no gutters and b) better plan to get up there and shovel off. Every year something slides off forcing a deck repair.

Pictures to follow.

 

[IHI]

Living this right now.....entire rear complete snow build up slipped off last week, killing all my gutters.

So, are you saying that my roof is under insulated and therefore I melt the snow and turn it to ice?

I will be better prepared next year with a) no gutters and b) better plan to get up there and shovel off. Every year something slides off forcing a deck repair.

Pictures to follow.

Steel ribbed roofs, mandatory snow/ice busters...slippery steel+snow= avalanche of snow at some point. Steeper the pitch, less it takes for avalanche to happen.

"standard" low pitched roofs 3-6/12 pitch which are on the major of homes nationwide, the snow does'nt slide off in sheets, it sits up there and melts over time...unless you roof rake, which alot of folks do at certain depths to keep roof from crashing in. We just got 14" last thursday and we're going to get another 8-10" by tuesday..I'll be raking my roof since that to me is just too much weight/snow bearing down on the trusses even though in this area they're designed for it....just like an engine can go to 6500rpm redline, holding it there for extended periods is'nt doing it any good.

You can do no gutter, but make sure if you have a basement it's sealed up since the water will all cascade straight down like a waterfall and find every leak point in the foundation and eventually leak inside. Also you will have to address grade. You wont be able to just have dirt/grass as the waterfall that ensues from no gutter will start making divots and eating the yard up, often it will form puddles/lakes and then drain back towards the house...not what you want, think expensive long term damage. So if you plan on no gutter, dig up around the house the eaves are on, make a berm/grade away from house and tamp it so it's soild, cover that with a couple layers of heavy/thick mill plastic and then cover that with rock...that way it will create a slide effect so all the hundreds of gallons of water that will cascade off the eaves during a good rain will hit the plastic slide and drain away from your house.

 

[Outlander]

The problem is in the back where it get lots of sun during the day, and comes off in sheets. It is more controlled in the front where this picture is taken. Regardless, gutters have pulled away in the front but easily repaired they have not been destroyed.

The rear is another story...so the snow.ice breakers seem like the right thing to keep my new gutters in shape.

We did get a lot more snow, in larger dumps, quicker than the last 5 years.

Never a dull moment!

 

[IHI]

The problem is in the back where it get lots of sun during the day, and comes off in sheets. It is more controlled in the front where this picture is taken. Regardless, gutters have pulled away in the front but easily repaired they have not been destroyed.

The rear is another story...so the snow.ice breakers seem like the right thing to keep my new gutters in shape.

We did get a lot more snow, in larger dumps, quicker than the last 5 years.

Never a dull moment!

Lol, our roofs aren't at that depth, but would be after this next blast we're supposed to get that starts tonight and ends Tuesday afternoon....hence, as much as I dread it, utilizing the roof rake. Hopefully all that is the light fluffy snow, everything we've gotten thus far has been THE wettest and heaviest snows I can remember in a lot of yrs.

 

[Ray916MN]

Steeper pitch along with proper insulation and ventilation is the proper way to design a roof to shed snow before it gets deep enough to cause problems. When you don't have this and don't elect to fix it there are ways to get around it.

Use a snow rake to remove build up before the melt stats if your roof is low enough to be raked. Planning to get on a snow covered roof and shovel it off is really dangerous. Not only will the roof be slippery, but the added weight on the roof of someone walking on it can trigger collapse.

Snow bars and heat taped or heated gutters can limit the force of snow slides off the roof and prevent gutters from getting heavy with ice. On a roof with a decent pitch, snow bars won't cause excessive snow build up on a roof. They will just prevent snow from avalanching off a roof with as much force.

While gutters can be mounted lower, the tradeoff is the ability of gutters to catch water running down the roof. In a heavy downpour water will tend to just shoot by a low mounted gutter.

 

[Outlander]

Roof rake is looking at me.......not sure I can walk thru the deep sow to get to the right place. May call a guy to do it this week. Better plans are called for. Thx for the advice.

 

[Tim The Tool Man]

...Having gutters get weighed down, fall down, "ripped off the house" is 100% related to insulation and venting and winter time is the PERFECT time to look at homes to see exactly which ones have major problems that need addressed.

Wow that's a bold statement! 100%??? Yes insulation and venting are important, I'll gladly give you that -but to say that is the only reason is pretty ridiculous! I would love to see your documentation on this.

My steel roofed shop is very well insulated and vented, thank you. Yet it is steep and a dark color and it will heat quite quickly once the sun comes out, just like an asphalt driveway. The snow drops off in huge sheets without ice dams.

Also, take a look at just about every unheated barn in the parts of the country which get regular snows. Why in the world would they need snow birds?

Is insulation and venting important? Yes. Is it the only cause of gutter being ripped off a building? Absolutely not!

Rant over.

 

[ABADWILLYS]

...Having gutters get weighed down, fall down, "ripped off the house" is 100% related to insulation and venting and winter time is the PERFECT time to look at homes to see exactly which ones have major problems that need addressed

yeah, i dont agree totally on this either
i also have a new metal sided pole barn and have watched the snow slide off when it gets warm outside, it is unheated at the present time, although its a good thing for the snow to slide off as to reduce snow weight on the trusses, i could see it ripping off the gutters, luckily i had not gotten around to installing gutters yet... so what do you suggest to resolve this issue?? or i will have the same concern as the OP's


..and my bay doors are on the long side of the shop, really sucked to dig thru 4 feet of heavy wet snow to get to my doors!!

 

[IHI]

Ice damming is a problem that is 100% venting and insulating related. Snow sliding off a metal roof on a pole barn, that's just weight and interia. You have to have the gutters are a certain height to catch the rain, too low and they're useless...install the ice/snow breakers along the edge of the roof to break up the large sheets into small manageable sizes that wont ambush gutters at full force. Make sure you have 2x material for your fascia so the gutters have something meaty to be screwed into and gutter companies in snow coountry "should" know to use more bracing, every X feet.

The newer style gutter brackets are alot stronger than the old spike through the front and ferrel ones of yester year, but when you have 1000lbs of snow/ice letting go at one time and nothing to slow it, stop it, break it...yeah, bad things are going to happen.

 

[#1SomeGuy]

I said it in the first post Smartscreen guys....reinforces the gutter and the snow has nothing to get caught on and pull. Costs a few bucks sure, but is cheaper than ripping gutters off every year.

 

[Outlander]

The newer style gutter brackets are alot stronger than the old spike through the front and ferrel ones of yester year, but when you have 1000lbs of snow/ice letting go at one time and nothing to slow it, stop it, break it...yeah, bad things are going to happen.

Big spikes...that's what I have. Until I replace them anyways. One of my buddies from work will come up and help so I don't kill myself on the ladder

 

[FITO]

I was going to post the same question, thanks for beating me to it!
I'm also in KC and dealing with a rare amount of snow. When planning my barn I ran a waterline down the lean-to side for a future cistern to feed a non-potable hydrant at the front of the barn and also to the garden. My plan was to gutter the lean-to side and feed it into the cistern at the rear of the barn.
I've been too busy to get the gutter done and have always had this possible problem on my mind. I don't think snow keepers are the way I want to go, anyone actually use the smartscreen that #1SomeGuy suggested?
In the picture below the ground is level, it came of in huge sheets. I think it would of killed a gutter.

 

[#1SomeGuy]

#1SmartGuy suggested?

LoL thanks but I'm just SomeGuy...although I like to think I'm Smart too

 

[FITO]

LoL thanks but I'm just SomeGuy...although I like to think I'm Smart too

Sorry about that, I wish I could say I was trying to be funny!

 

[SARG]

I have a metal roof on my garage and the doors are under the soffits.... won't ever build one that way again...... but after losing my gutters to the sliding snow decided to take them down in the fall & put them back in the spring. Been doing that for the last decade.

 

[jimp]

Thanks everyone, it looks like I will just need to live with it. I'll try lowering the gutters a little and add gutter guards (locally called Gutter helmet). I have considered removing them each fall but 14 feet in the air and one piece makes that hard.

My roof is well insulated (R19 + R30)but 4/12 pitch metal roof with over 20 inchs of snow and a couple warm days it started coming off. It would slip during the day refreeze then slip more the next day.

The good news it's almost all gone today.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

ice damns are 100% caused by inadequate insulation and lack of/improper attic venting....put your money there. If I were strictly in the insulation business I would spend part of my winter time driving around taking pictures of houses with ice dams and then contacting these folks come spring to try and sell them a solution to make the problem go away and save them money year around.

I don't think "100%" of the cause is "inadequate insulation and lack of/improper attic venting".

I will agree that having adequate insultation and proper attic venting is very important in reducing ice damming and long icicles from the eaves and gutters; but you can't eliminate ice damming in many situations.

Some amount of ice damming and icicles from the eaves and gutters is an eventually anytime you get snow on the roof and your have right atmosheric conditions (temp and sunlight).

Scenario: Lots of snow on the roof. Lots of insulation and great ventiliation. Outside temp is 28*F and its sunny; not a cloud in the sky.

Eventually the sun will warm up the roof (especially if the roof is a dark color) and the snow will begin to melt. The water will run down past the outside walls of the structure, over the overhang, and into the gutters. The roof beyond the outside walls of the structure and the gutter will be 28*F (same as outside air temp) and the water will freeze. First in the gutters blocking a way for the water to "get away". Then an ice dam will begin to back up the roof. Eventually the water will flow over the ice dam, over the frozen gutter, and start to create long icicles.

The snow on the roof eventually will melt and turn to water. Gravity will take it down. The outside temp when the snow (and ice) melts will dictate whether you'll have an ice dam and icicles, or not.

Really low temps (low enough that direct sun on a cloudless day against a roof doesn't get the roof temp to 32*F) should not be a problem; no melting. The snow will start to sublime away.

The problem is when temps are between about 26*/28* and 33*/34*. Just high enough for the snow to melt in direct sunlight, heat the roof up, heat the attic up ... but freeze the melted snow (now water) when the water gets away from an artificial source of heat and is cooled by the outside air.

Above 34* outside air temp and you shouldn't have a problem ... unless you already have a really good ice dam built up. It will take a while to warm the ice dam up to doesn't freeze the water running over it and actually starts to melt itself.

I think that gutter guards and stuff like that only compounds the problems in the winter time. I believe the only solution is to have the heat wires in the gutters and up the valleys to create a path for the water to get into the gutters as water, not freeze, get down the downspout, and onto the surrounding ground.

I await constructive feedback.

 

[jimp]

I think a lot of people are missing the point, It's not ice in the gutters. It is very heavy snow coming off the roof and hitting the gutters on the way down and ripping them off the building. The snow falling to the ground has very little ice.

 

[MP&C]

I have standing seam metal roofing and had the same gutter issue with sliding snow. After installing snow guards, have not had any problem since. The snow guards hold the snow on the roof until it melts.

 

[Pluribus]

Recommendation from a home builder I know is to put the highest point of the gutter 1" below the plane of the roof surface. In other words, if you lay a straightedge on the roof surface overhanging the outer edge, set the gutter height so it's 1" below the straightedge at its highest point. I don't have first hand experience with it yet, but when i do gutters this spring, I'm going to go with that. Sliding snow should (hopefully!) slide over the gutter, even with a little bit of curl that way.

 

[Cemoto]

I'm about to have a standing seam roof installed next month and the snow bars are $30. / foot installed....

 

[yuk]

here is what i had till it melted away today.
an unfinished car port i started before my heart transplant. never have got around to finishing it.
i dont think any gutter system would have put a good fight.

 

[roofingquotes]

My roof was covered with a heavy snow last winter. I was really a mess. What I did was to have it done by a roof contractor. Luckily, they fixed it before the next snowfall came.

 

[mikeburris]

here is what i had till it melted away today.
an unfinished car port i started before my heart transplant. never have got around to finishing it.
i dont think any gutter system would have put a good fight.

must be lack of proper insulation and ventilation

 

[Tim The Tool Man]

must be lack of proper insulation and ventilation

I'm 100% sure that was the cause!

 

[jimp]

here is what i had till it melted away today.
an unfinished car port i started before my heart transplant. never have got around to finishing it.
i dont think any gutter system would have put a good fight.

This looks very familiar, just a little longer.

 

[jimp]

Recommendation from a home builder I know is to put the highest point of the gutter 1" below the plane of the roof surface. In other words, if you lay a straightedge on the roof surface overhanging the outer edge, set the gutter height so it's 1" below the straightedge at its highest point. I don't have first hand experience with it yet, but when i do gutters this spring, I'm going to go with that. Sliding snow should (hopefully!) slide over the gutter, even with a little bit of curl that way.

When I put them back on I'll use the 1" placement, my current gutters were even.

Thanks, this gives me a number to drop them.

 

[bygasper]

I second this! 100%

I think a lot of people are missing the point, It's not ice in the gutters. It is very heavy snow coming off the roof and hitting the gutters on the way down and ripping them off the building. The snow falling to the ground has very little ice.

 

[Terry454]

Both my home and un heated garage have roofs of imitation slate (made from recycled milk jugs and resin and other garbage). They are plastic and guarantied for 75 years. When I installed them I failed to consider how slippery they are and the falling snow. The roof installers also installed copper gutters -- half round in the front of the house and the k-style on the sides of the house and garage. The snow slides off easily, but most of the roofs are 12/12. The snow slides right over the gutters of both buildings.

Several years after the original roof/gutter install I got tired of the snow falling on the front stairs from the only low pitch roof there is (over the front porch; I think it is 4/12) and I installed snow birds and no more snow on the stairs. The front porch is where the half round gutters are – all for looks. In the main roof valleys the snow stays until it melts – sometimes weeks and months, and I get ice dams there but no problems so far. Maybe it is the copper flashing in the valleys. The roofers installed a ridge vent on the house and I notice the attic is much cooler than previously.

Some years later I got to where climbing a ladder to clean the gutters was beyond my abilities so I had copper leaf guards installed -- they look a lot like the recommended snow guard on the first page. No additional problems with either snow or leaves.

The gutters have never come down or even been threatened (thank God; I would hate to pay for them again), but I do not know if that is because of the original proper install or the leaf guards. I suspect the former, but I just don't know.

 

[cyamaha2007]

OP I also lost my gutters last week. Im in Warrenton Mo. My barn has a 4/12 pitch green metal roof. It is un heated but i do have 1ft overhangs on all sides with vented soffit and a continuous ridge vent. The snow came off the roof like a train. I had a car on my 2 post lift. I crapped myself thinking the car was coming down on me. 30 seconds or so of nasty rumble. Im going to have to figure this out but im not sure holding the snow on the roof is the right answer. Im not sure how much snow my trusses can handle. I wouldnt call it a ice dam but rather huge sheets of wet heavy snow.

 

[jimp]

OP I also lost my gutters last week. Im in Warrenton Mo. My barn has a 4/12 pitch green metal roof. It is un heated but i do have 1ft overhangs on all sides with vented soffit and a continuous ridge vent. The snow came off the roof like a train. I had a car on my 2 post lift. I crapped myself thinking the car was coming down on me. 30 seconds or so of nasty rumble. Im going to have to figure this out but im not sure holding the snow on the roof is the right answer. Im not sure how much snow my trusses can handle. I wouldnt call it a ice dam but rather huge sheets of wet heavy snow.

Sounds like we had a similar problem. I am going to lower my gutters about 1" below the roof line as suggested earlier. And I agree that I don't want to retain the snow on my roof, three or four snows like we had and it will exceed the design (I know it's not likely, but I always assume the worse)