Guys, I need your help...

[jkesselr]

Hey guys, I need your help. I don’t know if you’ve heard but the entire state of Oregon is on fire. My uncle’s home burned to the ground two nights ago and my shop is threatened by wildfires as we speak.

My question relates to trying to salvage tools that burned in the fire. The fire burned hot, really hot. Can hardline tools like wrenches, sockets, ratchets, etc be cleaned up and salvaged or are they all just scrap iron?

He had an extensive tool collection (mechanic, auto painting, and some carpentry) and it is all gone now.

I would love to hear from folks with firsthand experience either with their own stuff or stuff they have laid eyes on.

Thanks in advance for anything you can offer.

 

[cvairwerks]

Figure that they are scrap. Depending on the temp they reached, the duration at the elevated temps and any quench, the temper is probably gone as well as any plating. The time and effort required to attempt to save anything other than rare or high sentimental value items, will greatly exceed replacement costs.

 

[CGarage]

Figure that they are scrap. Depending on the temp they reached, the duration at the elevated temps and any quench, the temper is probably gone as well as any plating. The time and effort required to attempt to save anything other than rare or high sentimental value items, will greatly exceed replacement costs.

This. This gentleman knows his stuff and his metallurgy.

 

[CGarage]

Wishing you the best of luck and hoping that you and yours and your shop make it through safe and unscathed. 2020.....What a year. SMDH.

 

[cvairwerks]

Thanks CG, but not anywhere as well as others. Dad was a well know metallurgical engineer and corrosion analysis specialist in the oil business, so I absorbed some of the basics over the years. I have to pull the books and read for a bit to get much deeper into the science and reality.

 

[seber]

In general, you should be good up to 400 degrees f. That is an average tempering temp for tool steel. Some tools will be higher depending on the use. Others like drill bits may be lower. Above that, steel starts to lose more temper the higher you go. So it depends on the tool and on the temperature that it was exposed to. Keep in mind that the tool box would have offered some protection. If it is worth your time, you might devise a test for the various types of tool to see if they can still do the job for which they were designed.

 

[signcrafter]

I'm a saver of anything I can, but after a fire I think I would just let insurance do their job and go on a shopping spree. You said the fire got really hot and like mentioned already if the steel got that hot they will never be the same. They may be usable but likely won't be as strong as they were and will cause issues. Best of luck.

 

[homebuilt burner]

I'm sorry for your uncle's loss. And your impending loss. I can not image how that must feel.

If there is anything particularly hard to find that was lost, post it here. I know in the past others have been able to find items in similiar times.

 

[SeisMec]

My guess would be the tools are scrap - electrically powered tools for sure. For any tools with a great deal of sentimental attachment, talk to the insurance agent; you can probably buy them back - at scrap metal price - after the settlement.

My condolences and wishing you much better luck with your own shop.

 

[Ton ton]

Figure that they are scrap. Depending on the temp they reached, the duration at the elevated temps and any quench, the temper is probably gone as well as any plating. The time and effort required to attempt to save anything other than rare or high sentimental value items, will greatly exceed replacement costs.

What he said.

 

[RTM]

Sorry to hear this, more for your uncle than for the tools. I've had friends find woodworking tools with burned handles (think barn fire), and the blades are **** due to loss of temper. Seeing the intensity of thing burning around us and north of us, I would assume they are scrap for actual working.

 

[jkesselr]

Thanks for the assessment, guys. Not what I wanted to hear, but what I figured the case would be. He has a ton of quality old stuff in large sizes, mac, proto, etc. Sad to think it is all gone.

 

[BlakeTheCarGuy]

I had no idea Oregon was on fire I thought it was just California. And I hate to tell you all of your tools are probably scrap my friends shop caught on fire after a mechanic dropped a gas tank and the gas hit a plug in it burnt very hot and they lost everything except very few things.


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[jkesselr]

Yeah, we are burning to the ground around here.

 

[Honda guy]

A friend of mine had a bad shop fire. The place burned to the ground. Surprisingly a lot of the tools were still usable. Most of it was Snap On, Mac, Matco and some Craftsman. He gathered a whole bunch of sockets, wrenches, ratchets, etc.,and let them soak in buckets of used motor oil. Then, over the next several months he'd pull a batch of tools out of a bucket, clean them up and put them back into service. Were they pretty? Hell no! Were they still functional? Yes, he used/abused them and they still got the job done.

To make a long story short, several years later we had a really great Snap On guy that was ok with warrantying all of the fire damaged Snap On tools.

And on a side note, his shop burned down due to a lack of monthly maintenance on his fire extinguisher.

 

[redmondjp]

And on a side note, his shop burned down due to a lack of monthly maintenance on his fire extinguisher.

Was it a dry chemical one, and by monthly maintenance you mean inverting it and whacking it on the bottom with a board or dead-blow hammer to loosen the dry chemical inside so it doesn't cake up?

 

[TuxThePenguin]

Fire extinguishers are definitely not supposed to need a monthly maintenance. Should probably take a look at the gauge on them monthly, sure... but you should be able to leave an extinguisher alone for literally years.

Was it some junky brand?

 

[loganb]

Fire extinguishers are definitely not supposed to need a monthly maintenance. Should probably take a look at the gauge on them monthly, sure... but you should be able to leave an extinguisher alone for literally years.

Was it some junky brand?

Going to disagree with you there

Day job involves working for a large manufacturer, not in the factory anymore but there are a dozen or so sites, most in that 200k to 400k sq ft range across the US and our facilities are insured by one of the top firms who do factory/industrial insurance.

On the monthly "preventative maintenance" schedule is an inspection of every extinguisher, which includes flipping upside down and tapping with a deadblow to keep the powder from setting up. Every month they get signed off it was done, and those tags and the overall logs of inspection, hotbwork permits and the invoices from the company who recharges the extinguishers is inspected during the annual on site audits from both the internal facilities team and our insurance company.

This may seem like overkill, and for many it may be, but when there are 200+ people in the building at any time and tens of millions in equipment and greater risk to lost revenue due to prodution outages...ensuring that you'll get "full usage" out of that 10 or 20 lb extinguisher instead of only 20 to 40% discharge can be the difference between spending more time cleaning up the dry powder mess than spent fixing the cause and having to evacuate a building and battle a more involved blaze putting a much more substantial risk to live, limb and property. We decided it was worth the roughly 20 hours a year per facility to have more confidence things will work when required. And had we not decided to do that, the property insurance rates would have reflected it

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[SarcasticDwarf]

Fire extinguishers are definitely not supposed to need a monthly maintenance. Should probably take a look at the gauge on them monthly, sure... but you should be able to leave an extinguisher alone for literally years.

Was it some junky brand?

They should not require monthly maintenance, but an inspection is typically required. See 29 CFR 1910.157(e)(2)

Portable extinguishers or hose used in lieu thereof under paragraph (d)(3) of this section shall be visually inspected monthly.

 

[WinMod21]

Yeah, we are burning to the ground around here.

Very sorry to read of your Uncles' loss. Hopefully some can be salvaged. Been very sorry to see and hear of the widespread devastation. Hard to even imagine and wrap ones' mind around.

 

[rlitman]

In general, you should be good up to 400 degrees f. That is an average tempering temp for tool steel. Some tools will be higher depending on the use. Others like drill bits may be lower. Above that, steel starts to lose more temper the higher you go. So it depends on the tool and on the temperature that it was exposed to. Keep in mind that the tool box would have offered some protection. If it is worth your time, you might devise a test for the various types of tool to see if they can still do the job for which they were designed.

FYI, HSS drill bits can be heated on the grinder until they start to glow a dull red without losing their temper. Cobalt bits have even higher heat resistance. However, I agree that a lot of carbon steel will be ruined by 400F.

Going to disagree with you there

Day job involves ...
On the monthly "preventative maintenance" schedule is an inspection of every extinguisher, which includes flipping upside down and tapping with a deadblow to keep the powder from setting up. ...

Ugh. Why do these old wives tales keep cropping up?

Properly charged (filled with dry nitrogen) dry chemical fire extinguishers to not have caking or settling issues. However, thumping with a hammer will very likely dislodge the siphon tube, which will lead to your extinguisher having zero dry chemical released. There is a reason that every major extinguisher manufacturer's FAQ states to NOT invert and thump. Don't believe me? Just search for yourself. The information is in plain sight with the manufacturer's publications.

A couple of years ago, I happened to have put out a fire and used a pair of disposable Kidde ABC drychem extinguishers in the process. Both had been hanging undisturbed (aside from a regular finger flick to the gauge) for over 10 years, and both had no trouble emptying their entire contents.

 

[loganb]

FYI, HSS drill bits can be heated on the grinder until they start to glow a dull red without losing their temper. Cobalt bits have even higher heat resistance. However, I agree that a lot of carbon steel will be ruined by 400F.



Ugh. Why do these old wives tales keep cropping up?

Properly charged (filled with dry nitrogen) dry chemical fire extinguishers to not have caking or settling issues. However, thumping with a hammer will very likely dislodge the siphon tube, which will lead to your extinguisher having zero dry chemical released. There is a reason that every major extinguisher manufacturer's FAQ states to NOT invert and thump. Don't believe me? Just search for yourself. The information is in plain sight with the manufacturer's publications.

A couple of years ago, I happened to have put out a fire and used a pair of disposable Kidde ABC drychem extinguishers in the process. Both had been hanging undisturbed (aside from a regular finger flick to the gauge) for over 10 years, and both had no trouble emptying their entire contents.

When the insurance company who is going to be holding the bag if the building burns down gives you an option to do X or your premium goes to Y, most trust the ones backing the loss who have research centers studying fire causes and prevention and assist
/lead writing the building codes around fire prevention vs what the owners manual says on the extinguishers.

Its also good to keep in mind that product designed for industrial use may have different instructions and construction than retail/residential targeted stuff. Both sides of this story could be accurate, but the devil is in the details

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[SeisMec]

“ABC” class extinguishers (ammonium phosphate) have the tendency to fail due to solidification of the chemical in the canister base. Homeowners and inspectors can delay this process by periodically shaking the extinguisher.

International Association of Certified Home Inspectors

After the company that I worked for in the 70's-90's had to pay a substantial fine for starting a large wilderness area fire (that would have been nothing had any of 3 different vehicle mounted dry chemical extinguishers functioned), we inspected the chemical monthly. These were commercial extinguishers with screw off tops.

The very first time we inspected, the chemical in every extinguisher was a solid mass - including a couple of extinguishers that were less than a year old. All of the vehicles saw a lot of off road use. Once a month was not too often in my opinion, but might be overkill for a fire extinguisher attached to a stationary wall.

 

[Honda guy]

And on a side note, his shop burned down due to a lack of monthly maintenance on his fire extinguisher.

Was it a dry chemical one, and by monthly maintenance you mean inverting it and whacking it on the bottom with a board or dead-blow hammer to loosen the dry chemical inside so it doesn't cake up?

Yes, exactly! The chemical was caked at the bottom of the extinguisher, causing it to malfunction.

Here's what happened. My buddy was working on an ATV that had some gas in the airbox. When he tried to start the ATV, it backfired through the carb and ignited the fuel in the airbox. At this point the fire was very manageable. When he aimed the extinguisher at the fire and pulled the trigger, the only thing that came out was propellant (NO chemical), and the propellant blasted flaming fuel all over the shop. So, at that point he had about 10 separate fires going on in his shop, and a non-functioning extinguisher in his hand.

 

[Honda guy]

Fire extinguishers are definitely not supposed to need a monthly maintenance. Should probably take a look at the gauge on them monthly, sure... but you should be able to leave an extinguisher alone for literally years.

Was it some junky brand?

Dry chemical fire extinguishers DO require periodic maintenance. Monthly might be a little much, but it's what the experts recommend. They need to be turned upside down and tapped with a rubber mallet, to keep the powder from caking up.

Also, if you gently tap the extinguisher, it should make a light "tinging" noise. If it makes more of a solid "thud" noise, that indicates the powder is caked at the bottom.

Anyone that "leaves an extinguisher alone for literally years" (or even months), is asking for trouble.

 

[jkesselr]

Very sorry to read of your Uncles' loss. Hopefully some can be salvaged. Been very sorry to see and hear of the widespread devastation. Hard to even imagine and wrap ones' mind around.

Yeah, it really *****. He lost a lifetime of possessions and is left with nothing more than the memories of what he did at one point with those items. I wish it were different. Just want to help him rebuild in any way I can.

 

[rlitman]

Yes, exactly! The chemical was caked at the bottom of the extinguisher, causing it to malfunction.

Here's what happened. ... When he aimed the extinguisher at the fire and pulled the trigger, the only thing that came out was propellant (NO chemical), and the propellant blasted flaming fuel all over the shop...

The most logical explanation for this is that the siphon tube in his extinguisher was dislodged due to "maintenance". Mythical caked chemical would block up the tube, preventing any such blast of propellant.

 

[seber]

Check the instructions that are printed on the extinguisher. Some require maintenance and some do not. You can bet that if the top screws off it needs to be checked. If you can't fine the instructions on the side, check the net. If it isn't there, the extinguisher is obsolete. Throw it away.

 

[ssdave]

I do know that OSHA cites us with a finding of inadequate fire extinguisher maintenance if we don't have a program in place to remove from the hanger, invert, and inspect fire extinguishers monthly, and note that inspection date on the tag. With several hundred extinguishers in service, it's a major effort to make sure they are all done. We've been cited in the past for it, so now it's a "repeat finding". Our safety guy really emphasizes this because of the OSHA findings. It's an easy hit for a lazy OSHA guy that just wants to come out, spend a few minutes, and have a finding to justify his job. The better guys come out, walk with us through our facilities, discuss what we do, look at our records, and talk program with us. But, occasionally we get the parking ticket writer guy that just comes out and walks around checking fire extinguisher tags, expiration dates on the aspirin in the first aid kits, and looking for nicks in the extension cord insulation.

rlitman's thought that inspection damages extinguishers is the first I've ever heard of this, and I've been responsible for the inspection program of many hundred extinguishers, for over 20 years. That said, I don't advocate tapping them with a mallet. My written inspection procedure says to tilt and slowly invert, feeling the powder flow like a liquid. If it doesn't flow smoothly, continue to tilt back and forward until it does. If it doesn't transition to flowing smoothly, but thumps instead, we red tag that extinguisher, and send it to the fire protection company for maintenance and recert. Or, throw it away and replace it.