Halon Fire Extinguishers. How old is old?

[abstamaria]

Decision

In case some of you are wondering, I decided to install a new Halotron fire extinguisher. A part of me still feels the Halon bottle is still full and the superior extinguisher, but I was afraid the mechanism might have deteriorated with age. I appreciate all the good advice given here.

Many thanks again.

Andy

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by plow View Post
**** can it. You need to have pressure on it weather it's 1301 or 1211. The weight could be dead on, but very little pressure. You cant verify that without a gauge.



Read my post. I'm not referring to a Co2 extinguisher here. Halon type extinguishers most certainly need a gauge. They are what we call stored pressure types and rely on being pressurized with nitrogen to be able to operate. Co2 makes it's own pressure. If you had a cup full or a gallon in a container the pressure would be the same.

Not to insult, but fire fighter or not, apparently you don't truly understand Halon. Halon is a vapor, meaning it's a liquid when under presure in a closed vessel and a gas at atmospheric pressure. There is NO nitrogen needed in a halon system. It is it's own propellant. As you said, it "makes it's own pressure" and the extinguisher discharges EXACTLY the same way as CO2.

Tommy

 

[RedneckWelder]

Re: Decision

In case some of you are wondering, I decided to install a new Halotron fire extinguisher. A part of me still feels the Halon bottle is still full and the superior extinguisher, but I was afraid the mechanism might have deteriorated with age. I appreciate all the good advice given here.

Many thanks again.

Andy

I would send your old extinguishers off for reclamation

 

[rlitman]

Not to insult, but fire fighter or not, apparently you don't truly understand Halon. Halon is a vapor, meaning it's a liquid when under presure in a closed vessel and a gas at atmospheric pressure. There is NO nitrogen needed in a halon system. It is it's own propellant. As you said, it "makes it's own pressure" and the extinguisher discharges EXACTLY the same way as CO2.

Tommy

That's not exactly true. Halon refers to a large class of chemicals, including carbon tetrachloride. Carbon tet (as an example) is a liquid, and while it will evaporate off (just as water would from an open container), it does not create enough pressure on its own to be used in a fire extinguisher, hence the pressure would be supplemented by an inert gas, namely nitrogen.

Some halon systems need inert pressurization, while some do not.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

That's not exactly true. Halon refers to a large class of chemicals, including carbon tetrachloride. Carbon tet (as an example) is a liquid, and while it will evaporate off (just as water would from an open container), it does not create enough pressure on its own to be used in a fire extinguisher, hence the pressure would be supplemented by an inert gas, namely nitrogen.

Some halon systems need inert pressurization, while some do not.

I'm aware of that. I was simplifying things. The two types of Halon in question do not require inert gas pressurization. 1301 and 1211 are not carbon tetrachloride.

Tommy

 

[Lippyp]

Chubb are the biggest and oldest manufacturer of fire extinguishers in the UK and those are industrial quality units, rather than cheap home user ones. Other than that I have no comment. I had a Halon extinguisher in my car for years but it was a cheap one and when I went to move it from one car to a new one realised it must have leaked as it had no weight to it anymore.

If your cars are worth money then I would really be looking at having an up to date system that you know will work.

 

[rlitman]

I'm aware of that. I was simplifying things. The two types of Halon in question do not require inert gas pressurization. 1301 and 1211 are not carbon tetrachloride.

Tommy

So you must be aware that Halon 1211 has a vapor pressure of just 39PSI, which is a fraction of the pressure required in an extinguisher.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

So you must be aware that Halon 1211 has a vapor pressure of just 39PSI, which is a fraction of the pressure required in an extinguisher.

I was, I am obviously getting forgetful and I was wrong. I am positive neither is Carbon tetrachloride. Maybe that's all I know anymore...

I am very sorry, guys!

Tommy

 

[trentonmakes]

This is from nfpa10

Halon which has been in use for several decades, is most commonly found in two forms: 1211, a liquid streaming agent found in hand-held extinguishers which gasifies under normal atmospheric conditions, and 1301, a gaseous flooding agent which is found in built-in flood systems.

What are the maintenance requirements of Halon Fire Exting.?

Halon 1211 fire extinguishers actually require less year-to-year maintenance than the more common dry-chemical fire extinguishers. Dry chemical fire extinguishers tend to settle and "brick up" over time due to moisture and gravity, and this in turn sets up a dangerous situation whereby much of the powder-extinguishing agent is unable to be propelled from the cylinder. Halon 1211, because of its liquid form, is free of such issues. Every year, the Halon extinguisher should be inspected: the pressure gauge should be visually checked to verify adequate pressure, the nozzle should be visually checked to be sure there are no obstructions, and the cylinder should be weighed to meet the manufacturer's weight requirement. Halon 1211 requires a six year maintenance and a 12 year hydrostatic test by a licensed fire service professional.

The 1211/1301 blend does not require a six year maintenance, hydrostatic testing, or recharging. The units should be visually inspected to ensure the extinguisher is fully charged and operable. Fullness is determined by weighing or "hefting" the unit. See name plate instructions for further details



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[rlitman]

I am positive neither is Carbon tetrachloride.

Correct. I only brought up carbon tet because that was actually the first halon extinguishing agent in commercial use (at least that I am aware of). It was originally sold sealed in glass "grenades" and the liquid vaporized on impact.
It has of course been banned for some time now.

The extinguishers we think of as Halon are generally Halon 1211 and 1301. Both are actually quite similar to carbon tetrachloride in structure, as all three are a tetrahedral molecule with just one carbon in the middle. Carbon tet is fully chlorinated, whereas 1211 has chlorine, bromine and two fluorines, and 1301 has bromine and three fluorines. It seems that a potential replacement for 1301 has been tested using iodine in place of the single bromine.

 

[James E]

Ok so for clarification, this is how I understand Halon to work... . Halon displaces (different than "sucking up") air and is heavier than air, so it settles into a space and accumulates there, removing one of the three necessary components of fire.

It is dangerous to humans because when it is inhaled, it fills and settles into the lungs and then is difficult to exhale. Because it dsplaces air, the lungs cannot exchange oxygen and the person suffocates. Passing out often causes the person to drop into the more concentrated accumulation of the gas, as does dropping and crawling away from the fire.

When used in the open, where there is movement of the air, Halon is almost as safe as CO2 because it can disperse. When used in an enclosed space, Halon is dangerous because anyone in that space may inhale it and even after the Halon is evacuated, there is still Halon in their lungs.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

If that understanding is correct, it boggles my mind why the military or any other agency would use Halon inside the passenger compartment of an armored vehicle for fire suppression. In the engine compartment, yes. Inside the vehicle--that's just asking for trouble.

 

[rlitman]

Kind of. Argon (sold as argonite) works largely by oxygen displacement. CO2 does have a slight cooling effect too). By lowering the oxygen concentration just enough that there the fire triangle is broken.

Halons are a little more complicated than that. They do displace oxygen, and this is responsible for PART of their extinguishing effect, but they are also highly dense gases with high heat capacities. This very rapidly drops the temperature where they are released, in much the same way that the screen in a spark arrestor works. All that is required is to lower the temperature around the flame to below the auto-ignition point (which may just be a few degrees), and the flame can be put out like turning off a switch. This property allows them to extinguish a flame using much less agent than would be required from CO2 for example.

Note that these work in tandem (you could almost think of it as a symbiotic relationship), as the auto-ignition temperature is dependent upon the oxygen concentration (more specifically the oxygen partial pressure).

 

[plow]

Not to insult, but fire fighter or not, apparently you don't truly understand Halon. Halon is a vapor, meaning it's a liquid when under presure in a closed vessel and a gas at atmospheric pressure. There is NO nitrogen needed in a halon system. It is it's own propellant. As you said, it "makes it's own pressure" and the extinguisher discharges EXACTLY the same way as CO2.

Tommy

1) I didn't say that
2) I'm not a fire fighter
3) http://amerex-fire.com/products/halon-1211-extinguishers/ (click on specs)
4) Sorry, but it does require Nitrogen
5) No, it is nothing like Co2

 

[LS6 Tommy]

1) I didn't say that
2) I'm not a fire fighter
3) http://amerex-fire.com/products/halon-1211-extinguishers/ (click on specs)
4) Sorry, but it does require Nitrogen
5) No, it is nothing like Co2

Sorry, plow. I quoted the wrong post. When I said it discharges exactly the same as CO2, I meant it was a condensed liquid that flashes to vapor.


Tommy

 

[fireguy]

I was going to add my nickels worth, but will suggest if you want to know, only read rlitman and plow.

Fire extinguishers are sold by a rating system. A 5 # ABC dry chem is rated at 2A10BC.
A 9# Halon is rated 1A10BC. A 15.5# Halotron is rated 2A10BC. The cost of a 2A10BC Halotron will make you pee your pants. But, if what you are trying to protect is valuable, Halotron is a good choice. Halon is a better choice, better protection at less cost.

Go to amerex-fire.com. Click on tabs marked Resource Center and Learning Center. For those who beat on an extinguisher, read Common Myths # 33.

At the next class, we will discuss cleaning sprinkler heads. http://www.ehow.com/how_6052234_clean-fire-sprinkler-heads.html And remember, if you saw it on the internet, it must be true.

 

[rlitman]

>I was going to add my nickels worth, but will suggest if you want to know, only read rlitman and plow.

Thanks, but as I've said before, free advice given on the internet is worth not much more than you pay for it.

>The cost of a 2A10BC Halotron will make you pee your pants.

In the neighborhood of $650 last I looked several years ago. It weighs about as much as most people are comfortable handling, and barely has the extinguishing power of the 5lb dry chems people keep in their kitchens. I'm not sure if I mentioned it in this thread or another, but Halotron 1 is being sunsetted and replaced by FE-36. Eventually (probably at least 15 years down the line though), servicing and refilling Halotron extinguishers may be a problem, so if you're in the market to make this kind of investment, FE-36 might give you more years to amortize the cost.

> Go to amerex-fire.com.

They make the BEST extinguishers I've seen, bar none. I only have good things to say about their products that I have been fortunate enough to not have to use.

> At the next class, we will discuss cleaning sprinkler heads.

Yikes. I work at a data center, and even though we have an air pressurized dry pipe system, sprinkler heads still scare the bejeezes out of me. I had a friend who while working in a chemistry lab stock room, got his shirt caught on the ring of the emergency shower. That shower was hooked up to the sprinkler system, and the water that came out at (if you could even call it water) at a torrential rate (probably close to 50GPM, with the force of a fire hose) was about as thick as soup, and amazingly dark. But the smell is what you remember most. The cutting fluid and whatever else was used when the pipes were installed lingers and emanates through the water, trapped inside the system permanently, only to be released at events like this.

> And remember, if you saw it on the internet, it must be true.

Agreed! Refer to my first comment.

 

[plow]

Sorry, plow. I quoted the wrong post. When I said it discharges exactly the same as CO2, I meant it was a condensed liquid that flashes to vapor.


Tommy

No harm No foul brother!

 

[plow]

I was going to add my nickels worth, but will suggest if you want to know, only read rlitman and plow.

Fire extinguishers are sold by a rating system. A 5 # ABC dry chem is rated at 2A10BC.
A 9# Halon is rated 1A10BC. A 15.5# Halotron is rated 2A10BC. The cost of a 2A10BC Halotron will make you pee your pants. But, if what you are trying to protect is valuable, Halotron is a good choice. Halon is a better choice, better protection at less cost.

Go to amerex-fire.com. Click on tabs marked Resource Center and Learning Center. For those who beat on an extinguisher, read Common Myths # 33.

At the next class, we will discuss cleaning sprinkler heads. http://www.ehow.com/how_6052234_clean-fire-sprinkler-heads.html And remember, if you saw it on the internet, it must be true.

WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN!!!!! I tried to debunk that old wives tale (beating a fire extinguisher) here for awhile now

I know it doesn't have chit to do with this thread, but yall may enjoy a few pics I snapped today.







This is a 1500 GPM Fire pump we tested today. This was taken at 100% of it's rating. We cranked her up to 150% (2250 GPM) after these pics. I've been doing this awhile now, and this part never gets old.

We also have a few 2500 GPM pumps we do. Those are some bad boy BMFs!

BTW, The Job offer still stands. We can use a guy like you.........I'm assuming you're a guy anyway....Not that it matters if you are a girl.........Whatever! If you want a good paying job that you're not doing the same stuff everyday PM me.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

No harm No foul brother!

Thanks. I'm somewhere between embarrased and pissed at myself for how much bad info I put up in this thread due to memory loss...


Tommy

 

[plow]

Unfortunately, I have been guilty of that myself.