Hammer Drill vs Drill/Driver

[The Critic]

I am in the market for a new drill. The Milwaukee 2803 and 2804 are two models I am considering. For my application I will not be using the Hammer function.

Is there any disadvantage to buying a Hammer Drill and keeping the hammer function turned off?

The only reason I ask is because HD has a great deal on the $399 combo and the combo only comes with the Hammer Drill model.

 

[Stuey]

Generally, compared to drill/drivers, hammer drill/drivers cost a little more and are slightly larger.

The 2804 is the same length as the 2803. Thus, there's no obvious tradeoff.

 

[Iluvbeer]

The hammer drill will function just like any other drill when the hammer is turned off. Although I have nothing to back this claim up, I have always suspected hammer drills are a little heavier made than a non hammer drill.
I have the dewalt in both hammer and regular and it doesn’t at all matter to me which one I grab for standard drilling other than the hammer drill is considerably heavier and better built.

 

[flushcut]

Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
I am sure that at some point in the tools life it will get used to drill into masonry.

 

[DFB]

You may want to read ALL the banter on Milwaukee Fuel Hammer Drill chucks before you make your decision


And the non hammer drill version seems to get a limited but more positive response.

Caveat emptor as they say

*Just to note I do have Gen 1 2604 FUEL Hammer Drill that does the job just fine, Contractor trades drives screws and bore holes without hesitation, IMO it not a precision tool like a drill press

 

[manwithtools]

I never buy hammer drills any more. I only buy non hammer due to reduced run out, lighter weight, smaller overall size and just generally better performance as a drill. Buy or rent an SDS drill for the few times you might need the function of a hammer drill. The SDS works SO much better than a combo hammer/drill it's not even close.

The Milwaukee 2803 (bare tool) is what we buy exclusively now. We have enough batteries and chargers, don't need the impacts, so the bare tools represent the best purchase decision for us. We drill almost metal exclusively.

 

[theoldwizard1]

The "standard" hammer drills will make a 1/4" hole 1" deep in concrete with the appropriate bit where a plain drill will not. The driver function is "okay", but not if you really want to remove nuts and bolts.

I bought a Milwaukee Fuel M12 3/8" impact with hex adapter and an M12 drill with hammer function.

If you really want to drill concrete/stone get an SDS drill.

 

[neophyte]

The hammer function usually adds a bit of extra weight. It also usually makes the drill slightly longer, and can add extra slop to the gear housing in some brands, not to mention, it makes the drill more complex which usually isn’t great unless you’ll need the function.
On some European drills like Fein, the revular non hammer drills have a tapered chuck arbor for greater concentricity, whereas the hammer drills need to have a threaded chuck arbor.
On A Milwaukee cordless drill it may not add much difference.

 

[HenryAZ]

I prefer the rotary hammer. They make the hole quicker and cleaner (more true to size).

 

[Stuey]

I am in the market for a new drill. The Milwaukee 2803 and 2804 are two models I am considering. For my application I will not be using the Hammer function.

Is there any disadvantage to buying a Hammer Drill and keeping the hammer function turned off?

The only reason I ask is because HD has a great deal on the $399 combo and the combo only comes with the Hammer Drill model.

The "standard" hammer drills will make a 1/4" hole 1" deep in concrete with the appropriate bit where a plain drill will not. The driver function is "okay", but not if you really want to remove nuts and bolts.

I bought a Milwaukee Fuel M12 3/8" impact with hex adapter and an M12 drill with hammer function.

If you really want to drill concrete/stone get an SDS drill.

I prefer the rotary hammer. They make the hole quicker and cleaner (more true to size).

 

[dacan23]

Positive the 2803 & 2804 are the same size? I thought the 2803 was a tad smaller. Specs show they are the same length but I think its wrong. The 2703 & 2704 were different size and the new brushless 2801 & 2902 are different size.

Generally, compared to drill/drivers, hammer drill/drivers cost a little more and are slightly larger.

The 2804 is the same length as the 2803. Thus, there's no obvious tradeoff.

 

[Stuey]

Positive the 2803 & 2804 are the same size? I thought the 2803 was a tad smaller. Specs show they are the same length but I think its wrong. The 2703 & 2704 were different size and the new brushless 2801 & 2902 are different size.

I had a conversation with the cordless product manager at NPS18, discussing their choice of having a hammer drill and drill at the M18 Fuel level, a hammer drill only at the slightly lower brushless level, and a drill only at the compact brushless level. I mentioned not liking hammer drills in combos because they're slightly bigger and I hardly need the hammer function these days, and they said something about managing to make the drill and hammer drill the same size for Gen 3 Fuel.

Taking the images from Milwaukee's site, they look the same, which is an agreement with the official length specs.

I had to adjust the scale slightly to get the same height. Then, overlapping the two, and it sure looks like they're the same width. Even if these are renderings, dimensions should still be accurate.

 

[Stuey]

Positive the 2803 & 2804 are the same size? I thought the 2803 was a tad smaller. Specs show they are the same length but I think its wrong. The 2703 & 2704 were different size and the new brushless 2801 & 2902 are different size.

Also, the 2801 is "compact brushless," with 500 in-lbs max torque, and the 2902 is "brushless," with 725 in-lbs max torque. The "brushless" hammer drill is 1/2" longer, weighs 1/2 pound more, and comes with an aux handle.

 

[DFB]

Also, the 2801 is "compact brushless," with 500 in-lbs max torque, and the 2902 is "brushless," with 725 in-lbs max torque. The "brushless" hammer drill is 1/2" longer, weighs 1/2 pound more, and comes with an aux handle.

That new 29Xx brushless hammer drill specs the same as the gen 1 fuel

Do you know how they would compare

I'm thinking this new drill isn't much more than an unbadged Gen 1 fuel

 

[DerekV]

Now if you were talking about the slightly older gen 2 models, I’d without a doubt suggest the non-hammer model as there’s a very obvious difference in the chuck function/trueness and a noticeable difference in length and weight (although weight maybe not as much as length). I returned the hammer model for the non-hammer model, over three years ago now. Love it, really great drill.

The new gen 3s are completely different. Playing around with the hammer model at HD, I can tell you there’s literally zero chuck issues compared to the last hammer model. I was sincerely surprised. It’s also tiny and light weight. I am not a fan of hammer drills but I wouldn’t hesitate to get the 2804 over the 2803 if the price was right. It might even be cheaper than the 2803 if you search eBay since there are way more ‘hammer’ kits out there for sellers to break up and part out.

 

[DerekV]

I'm thinking this new drill isn't much more than an unbadged Gen 1 fuel

Yep that’s what I suspect too. Sorta the same as the new brushless circ saw.

But back on topic - OP - get whatever gen 3 model you can find cheaper.

 

[xela456]

That new 29Xx brushless hammer drill specs the same as the gen 1 fuel

Do you know how they would compare

I'm thinking this new drill isn't much more than an unbadged Gen 1 fuel

i have a 2604 (gen 1 fuel) hammer drill, and a 2804 (gen 3) I always wish I would have gotten the regular drill without hammer function. One annoying feature of the 2804 is that the shifter is very close to the chuck and its very easy to switch from drill to hammer inadvertently. One thing I notice with the 2902 is that chuck is absolute garbage. It's the same one that was on the 2604's. The problem is that with gen2 fuel they went from a 1/2-20 attachment screw to a 9/16 with from all my research is proprietary, meaning you can't just switch it out with any high quality Rohm.
The 2804 has a high quality chuck.
The 2604 to me is my alltime favorite drill.

 

[Stuey]

That new 29Xx brushless hammer drill specs the same as the gen 1 fuel

Do you know how they would compare

I'm thinking this new drill isn't much more than an unbadged Gen 1 fuel

I didn't notice that, but you're right!

The speeds are similar but not exact. The 2902 is shorter in length.

I really don't think that it's the same internally; enough time has passed that it probably wouldn't be cost-effective to still be producing the Gen 1 Fuel motor. There have been improvements in tech and manufacturing (I'm sure) since the Gen 1 Fuel.

I haven't tested that model yet, and don't know what to think. I guess that the Fuel 2 and 3 series of tools are so powerful, and the compact brushless average, that there was the need for an intermediate. I haven't heard feedback about it yet either, most people go for the compact brushless, the brushed model as part of a combo, or the Fuel.

 

[DFB]

Yep that’s what I suspect too. Sorta the same as the new brushless circ saw.

But back on topic - OP - get whatever gen 3 model you can find cheaper.

What new saw?

 

[DerekV]

What new saw?

Google 2631-20

 

[Wamsutta]

WOW!!!! Stuey uses the WTF smiley. A very rare occurance if ever!

 

[DFB]

Google 2631-20

Thanks.

Now WTF is up with that.

All this new brushless stuff is turning into a giant marketing act.

What makes a FUEL 2731 any better now... same specs SAME RPM rafter hook etc.

This **** pisses me off I got $1000's invested in Milwaukee.

I'm calling Milwaukee CS bought a new 2731 for my job last year I think it was and of course it wasn't more than a few months the come out with new FUEL 2732.

I'm gonna tell them they should credit me the full towards the upgrade since basically downgraded the tool.

Same **** with the 2130 tower light increased lumens and dual power


This BS keeps up I swear I'm going over to the dark side. Yup you know... Harbor Frieght

 

[dacan23]

Yeah keeping up with all the new models is painful. I would like to upgrade my Gen2 one key to the new model, but the Gen3 one key just hit and will be a long time before theres a great deal. So many Gen3 drills have passed through my hands. I sold my 2731 to a friend only because I knew I could get a great deal on the 2732. They better not come out with a new model of any tool I have in 2019... oh wait I think Fuel tool less change multi tools are coming out in 2019...

Thanks.

Now WTF is up with that.

All this new brushless stuff is turning into a giant marketing act.

What makes a FUEL 2731 any better now... same specs SAME RPM rafter hook etc.

This **** pisses me off I got $1000's invested in Milwaukee.

I'm calling Milwaukee CS bought a new 2731 for my job last year I think it was and of course it wasn't more than a few months the come out with new FUEL 2732.

I'm gonna tell them they should credit me the full towards the upgrade since basically downgraded the tool.

Same **** with the 2130 tower light increased lumens and dual power


This BS keeps up I swear I'm going over to the dark side. Yup you know... Harbor Frieght

 

[Stuey]

Thanks.

Now WTF is up with that.

All this new brushless stuff is turning into a giant marketing act.

What makes a FUEL 2731 any better now... same specs SAME RPM rafter hook etc.

This **** pisses me off I got $1000's invested in Milwaukee.

I'm calling Milwaukee CS bought a new 2731 for my job last year I think it was and of course it wasn't more than a few months the come out with new FUEL 2732.

I'm gonna tell them they should credit me the full towards the upgrade since basically downgraded the tool.

Same **** with the 2130 tower light increased lumens and dual power


This BS keeps up I swear I'm going over to the dark side. Yup you know... Harbor Frieght

Part of it is keeping on-par or ahead of the competition, part of it is a natural progression.

Buy a phone this year, and next year's is going to be better. The same is true with cameras, computer processors, TVs, and so forth. Even cars.

Yes, it hurts, but the way I rationalize it, I'd rather have present day utility than wait a long time for the next model. Sometimes. Other times I'm an early adopter, which has its owns pros and cons.

 

[DFB]

Part of it is keeping on-par or ahead of the competition, part of it is a natural progression.

Buy a phone this year, and next year's is going to be better. The same is true with cameras, computer processors, TVs, and so forth. Even cars.

Yes, it hurts, but the way I rationalize it, I'd rather have present day utility than wait a long time for the next model. Sometimes. Other times I'm an early adopter, which has its owns pros and cons.

Thanks for the advice Stuey. And I do appreciate it

But I don't want to be rational about it!

I will agree its a natural progression and I have been with Milwaukee since before the FUEL line was even launched.

But still IMO this is more than the general run of consumer **** of TV's and phones. These are working tools for many and its fast becoming just a marketing game to keep changing the label adding a tweak here and there. Promo's now like dump the hardcase ooh add a packout box. Ohh just got HAVE THAT.


Ya I can see we went from a lock on switch angle grinder to a paddle switch with instant brake or up the High torque from 1000 to 1400 ft.lbs but this stuff took a few years not just a few months like changes of late. Stubby and Midtorque were years in the making. The old 2454 is like an icon tool now. And they both filled a gap that the consumer demanded.

Milwaukee is coming after the whole market right now anyone can see that (and it's not a bad thing) There is virtually no activity at all in any of the Addiction forums of the other brands go figure.

At the very least they should be offering trade in allowances if they are going to continue obsoleting current models of their pro line of tools, and then rebadaging them for the non commercial/homeowner market and calling them "new" models

Off my soapbox now

 

[Magnum440d100]

FWIW, I needed a drill when I installed paper towel dispensers. Got the 20v Dewalt hammer drill for $149 with no battery.

It’s put up ~1200 paper towel dispensers (most in stone) some in tile and some in FRP (easy stuff).

It’s done everything I’ve asked it to, and it is NOT treated nicely. It is a bit heavier, yes, but it is a TANK. It works normally when not in hammer mode, and the battery lasts dang near all of an 11hr day of constant use (construction).

My only reason going dewalt though, was the fact that I already had an impact driver, and batteries/chargers for the 20v dewalt.

YMMV.

 

[Moparman390]

This is hysterical watching you guys complaining about companies constantly bringing out new and improved products and the prices of the old ones falling here in a free market. Anyone consider the alternative? Take a gander at the Soviet tools thread, if the Soviet Union was still around today their tools wouldn't be much different than those and the average Soviet citizen would still have to lash a rock to a stick if he needed a hammer or maybe wait four years for one.

Also, if they make a minor improvement to a product it doesn't make yours not work and you don't need to junk the one you bought last year and run out to buy the new one.

 

[WittHay]

This is hysterical watching you guys complaining about companies constantly bringing out new and improved products and the prices of the old ones falling here in a free market.

Also, if they make a minor improvement to a product it doesn't make yours not work and you don't need to junk the one you bought last year and run out to buy the new one.

There are legitimate complaints with Milwaukee, The 2703 had bad chucks that would not hold bits and the 2704 had run out problems. So now they have a 2803/2804 that has a improved chuck and is slightly smaller but with reported overheating problems and they played with the electronics so it stalls faster.

https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Power-Tools/Drilling/Drill-Drivers/2803-20#sp-reviews

Instead of coming out with new models they should have recalled their Fuel drills and installed better chucks on them free of charge. The new Milwaukee is no better than DeWalt brushless and the old Milwaukee is equivalent to a Makita but the Makita has a quality made in Japan chuck

Both DeWalt and Makita keep their tools longer on the market. As in, if it works and has no problems why fix it. Milwaukee it seems is 1 step forward, 1 sideways and 2 steps backwards

Older and newer Milwaukee with the Makita in the middle

 

[DFB]

There are legitimate complaints with Milwaukee, The 2703 had bad chucks that would not hold bits and the 2704 had run out problems. So now they have a 2803/2804 that has a improved chuck and is slightly smaller but with reported overheating problems and they played with the electronics so it stalls faster.

I agree with that obviously they don't want the end consumer to burn up the tools or batteries thru excessive heat but ya they these newer ones can shut down on you when least expect it. My 2731 circ saw is like that, it shuts down too easy and that's why they came out with 2732 IMO, its been designed to better handle the higher draw of the 12.0 amp battery plus they increased the blade speed...again!

Instead of coming out with new models they should have recalled their Fuel drills and installed better chucks on them free of charge. The new Milwaukee is no better than DeWalt brushless and the old Milwaukee is equivalent to a Makita but the Makita has a quality made in Japan chuck.

I don't believe they ever had recall though I could be wrong. But to our benefit they have been retrofitting certain current market tools to at least take the new oversized batteries

Both DeWalt and Makita keep their tools longer on the market. As in, if it works and has no problems why fix it. Milwaukee it seems is 1 step forward, 1 sideways and 2 steps backwards

Good assessment...the Milwaukee Cha Cha!

 

[Stuey]

Thanks for the advice Stuey. And I do appreciate it

But I don't want to be rational about it!

I will agree its a natural progression and I have been with Milwaukee since before the FUEL line was even launched.

But still IMO this is more than the general run of consumer **** of TV's and phones. These are working tools for many and its fast becoming just a marketing game to keep changing the label adding a tweak here and there. Promo's now like dump the hardcase ooh add a packout box. Ohh just got HAVE THAT.


Ya I can see we went from a lock on switch angle grinder to a paddle switch with instant brake or up the High torque from 1000 to 1400 ft.lbs but this stuff took a few years not just a few months like changes of late. Stubby and Midtorque were years in the making. The old 2454 is like an icon tool now. And they both filled a gap that the consumer demanded.

Milwaukee is coming after the whole market right now anyone can see that (and it's not a bad thing) There is virtually no activity at all in any of the Addiction forums of the other brands go figure.

At the very least they should be offering trade in allowances if they are going to continue obsoleting current models of their pro line of tools, and then rebadaging them for the non commercial/homeowner market and calling them "new" models

Off my soapbox now

For what it's worth, I think they've been very aggressive with their pricing.

An M18 Fuel Gen 3 hammer drill kit is $299. But so is the holiday season drill + impact combo kit and Packout tool box combo. Or, for other configurations, you buy a new tool and you get an extra battery.

I don't think most users are going to go from say Gen 2 to Gen 3 if their Gen 2 drill is working just fine. But for the Gen 1 user, or brushed drill user that wants a higher powered tool, why not.

As for Gen 1 Fuel being repackaged as the new brushless hammer drill, I haven't seen any evidence of that yet, it's speculation based on the on-paper specs, which isn't substantial enough.

The Gen 1 tools came out in 2011, and then Gen 2 came out in 2015.

Between Gen 2 and Gen 3, there are enough differences that it could have been done for manufacturing streamlining, or to integrate new technology. They did feature the Gen 3 Fuel drills with the High Output batteries.

I really don't know.

With other product lines, like the M18 Rocket lights, they developed new products based on user feedback.

On one hand, it stings to buy a new product and have something better come out shortly after, but on the other hand, it's good that they strive to make things better.

With the drills, it's been 7 years since the 1st generation, and 3 since the 2nd, and that just doesn't seem like a negative thing to me.

 

[DFB]

Let me add this thought something I realized after I went offline last night. Now there was just recent thread here on TGJ where someone was looking to purchase a new FUEL DRILL AND IMPACT COMBO pointed out there is NOT one available anymore to the best of our knowledge here. (and if it is there someone point it out please)

JUST the HAMMERDRILL/impact combo. You can still buy the drill/driver alone bare tool or kit separately. And possibly coupled with a Surge driver, at least it was that way for while.

But not with the 4 speed 1/4" impact tool

Seems to me this is their way of moving all these hammerdrills that no one lately seems very of fond of...possibly because of the chuck issue complaints or just that the function itself is not valued and anyone that does any amount of concrete drilling goes SDS

 

[DFB]

As for Gen 1 Fuel being repackaged as the new brushless hammer drill, I haven't seen any evidence of that yet, it's speculation based on the on-paper specs, which isn't substantial enough.


On one hand, it stings to buy a new product and have something better come out shortly after, but on the other hand, it's good that they strive to make things better.

Stuey I always found your online tool blog reviews to very helpful and informative. I know I have probably referred to them in general tool conversations more than once.


I for one would definitely be in interested in spec comparison on both the Gen 1 Fuel hammerdrill and the similar spec'd "new non fuel brushless" and the same goes for the 2731 FUEL saw vs the "new 2631 brushless circular saw.

IMO still simple cosmetic changes aren't enough to make difference in argument though that they are really "NEW TOOLS". Things like the black on new saw or the drill case just being 1/2" shorter

 

[Stuey]

Let me add this thought something I realized after I went offline last night. Now there was just recent thread here on TGJ where someone was looking to purchase a new FUEL DRILL AND IMPACT COMBO pointed out there is NOT one available anymore to the best of our knowledge here. (and if it is there someone point it out please)

JUST the HAMMERDRILL/impact combo. You can still buy the drill/driver alone bare tool or kit separately. And possibly coupled with a Surge driver, at least it was that way for while.

But not with the 4 speed 1/4" impact tool

Seems to me this is their way of moving all these hammerdrills that no one lately seems very of fond of...possibly because of the chuck issue complaints or just that the function itself is not valued and anyone that does any amount of concrete drilling goes SDS

I have always believed that to be a demand issue. If 20 hammer drill and impact combos are purchased for every 1 drill and impact combo, it's not going to be very cost-effective, and retailers might not care for the slow moving inventory. There's a slight price difference between drills and hammer drills, but quantities might close the gap.

Or, even it's a closer ratio, say 1 drill & impact combo for every 5 hammer drill and impact combos, having one SKU might help with the aggressive kit and promo pricing.

it frustrates me too, because I prefer drills over hammer drills since I don't do much masonry work anymore.

Stuey I always found your online tool blog reviews to very helpful and informative. I know I have probably referred to them in general tool conversations more than once.

I for one would definitely be in interested in spec comparison on both the Gen 1 Fuel hammerdrill and the similar spec'd "new non fuel brushless" and the same goes for the 2731 FUEL saw vs the "new 2631 brushless circular saw.

IMO still simple cosmetic changes aren't enough to make difference in argument though that they are really "NEW TOOLS". Things like the black on new saw or the drill case just being 1/2" shorter

Thanks!

Gen 1 Fuel and the new non-fuel brushless drill are close.

This post actually helped me push through a specs comparison post I had been planning to do for a while - https://toolguyd.com/handy-milwaukee-m18-cordless-drill-driver-comparison-chart-2019/ . That shows all current models going into 2019.

Gen 1 Fuel (2604):

• 725 in-lbs
• 0-550/0-1800 RPM
• 8.1" long

"Brushless" (2902)

• 725 in-lbs
• 0-550/0-1800 RPM
• 7" long

But with 7 years between releases, and so much brushless advancement since then, I would be highly surprised if it had the same motor, controls, or other internals.

IF they did carry over some Gen 1 Fuel aspects to the new brushless tool, that wouldn't be unheard of. I remember noticing last year that Makita released new entry-priced drills and impacts with similar specs to previous years' regular models.

As for the saws, I haven't compared the new brushless saw to the 2731 Fuel saw, at least not yet. I did request a 2631 saw, and I was asked (urged) to be cautious with any comparisons between that and the new 2732 Fuel model, because of a very sizable difference in performance. The 2631 is good (and similarly spec'ed 2731), but the 2732 is even more capable.

I can understand the move.

Take the tech that was featured in the older Fuel saw, change out the RedLink Plus electronics, put in RedLink (I can't tell you exactly what the differences are), swap the magnesium shoe for aluminum one, and sell it at a price point between the brushed model and new premium M18 Fuel.

One could argue that they could have simply kept producing the previous M18 Fuel tools at lower pricing, but that could lead to confusion, at the least. At worst, the pricing might not have actually been too different. With pricing similar, what are people going to buy, the older model, or latest and greatest?

The 2731-20 saw is $239 at Acme. The 2732-20 is $249 at Tool Nut, shipping in mid-January. (I'm guessing that they wanted to get kits out there, with the 12Ah battery, and that limited supplies for kits only until now).

The 5Ah 2731 kit is $349, 2x5Ah kit is $449.

The 2732 12Ah kit is $399, PLUS there's a "Free 12Ah battery" promo tied to it. So it's 2x 12Ah batteries kit for $399.

12Ah batteries are usually $199 each. Although, there's a starter kit with 12Ah and 6Ah batteries and rapid charger for $249. Aggressive pricing like this requires inventories and to be very tightly controlled.

If someone wants a premium M18 Fuel saw, they're going to want to funnel those users towards the 2732. I'm sure the 2731 will be available for some time longer, but perhaps a little limited.

For the 2631, it's $179 for the bare tool, and $279 for the kit, and if you ask me it helps to balance the offerings a bit better.

Objectively, this is probably the most logical move for them.

When something new comes out, few people want to buy the "old" model. So here, they created a new tier for the drills and circular saw, along with some changes - some obvious (such as the aluminum vs. magnesium shoe), others possibly internally.

The performance and pricing gap between compact and Fuel models has also widened too far, also justifying the introduction of a mid-level tier. I guess so, at least. I never found the need for a mid-level Dewalt drill between their compact and heavy duty models, but then again, the new Fuel models are rated so much higher than the Dewalt 3-speed.

To try and understand things, I ask two things: 1) WHY are they doing this, and 2) What would I do differently? I can only guess for that first part, but for the second, I think I agree with what they're doing.