Hanging from engineered I joists with a twist.

[25WildBlue]

I've read a few of the threads here and have a pretty good understanding.
But thinking I might be going slightly over kill....and need someone to talk me off the ledge.

I'm doing a 4ft wide shelf across the front wall of my garage.
The "rim" is a 2x6 across the entire 22ft front wall, and 4ft out each side wall, lagged using appropriate SPAX PowerLags. 2 lags per stud (existing framing 16 O.C.)

2x4 joists 16" OC are being hung from the rim using joist hangers, and 1/2" plywood.

I got a good price on 1/2 stainless threaded rod and will hang from the ceiling using that.

Now, the ceiling joists (second floor) are an engineered i-joist. Unfortunately I don't remember the manufacturer or size. From pics, I'm assuming somewhere in the 10-12" range.

However, I can't add any blocking in between because my floor is framed in a 2-1-2-1-2-1, etc pattern. Meaning, every other joist is doubled up; so I can't block because I have no way to attach on the opposite side or access the webbing.

I found "some" information from the TJI series (Weyerhaeuser) which talks about connecting to the bottom flange. A 1/4" lag through the full flange thickness (~1.375) offers 225 lb/in of thread penetration pull out resistance. So assuming a 1/4" steel plate with 1/4" x 1.5" lag, gives me 250lbs pull out...and I can have a maximum of 500lbs per joist every 5ft.

Based on that knowledge, my plan is to remove the double layer of 5/8" drywall on the ceiling.
Take a 2x6x12 and lag to the bottom flange of every I-Joist using 2 lags per joist. That should give me ~500lbs pull out per I-Joist. Since I have 2 every other, I'll be able to get a lot of attachment points.

Now, to stiffen further, I have a 12ft piece of unistrut, which will be through bolted to the 2x6.
I'll drop 4 pieces of threaded rod to my platform and hang from that.

I thought about attaching the unistrut directly to the I-Joist, but I would only be able to hit 1 lag per joist then, effectively cutting my capacity in half.

Is this way over the top? Should I change or eliminate any details?
The other wrinkle is my garage height @ about 15ft....so its tough getting up there on ladders, etc. Might have to rent some scaffolding.


I've attached some pics showing the framing detail, etc.


EDIT: attached images
larger version of plan:https://i.imgur.com/BQWh6bo.png

 

[JoeMcGov]

Give it anudder shot 25WildBlue. The pics you reference didn't post.

 

[loganb]

As someone who is in the process of finishing up "high wall" shelving...have you thought thru what you're storing?

As it seems like your well past overkill on terms of weight of items to store, have you thought out what is bring stored and should it really be kept? Drag out a ladder, climb 12' up toting a box or tote...climb down and repeat, the store said ladder...which will be awkward in its own right.

Big, bulky but not heavy stuff used 1 or 2x a year is in my mind the target stuff for this location...but seems like your rack will be dramatic overkill for that type of stuff.

My shelving starts at 8 or 9' up and I dislike climbing up and down for that...and I don't have anything too heavy there....and much of what I have up there is going to be disposed of this winter and should've been trashed/donated/sold before I moved it!

Sent from The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[The Tool Tyrant]

When you use the term 'rim', I assume you're referring to the rear member that you're attaching to the wall, if so the correct term is 'ledger'.
From what I can picture from your explanation is your floor joist run perpendicular to the 22' direction.

What is the O/C spacing of the floor joist?

I would suggest stiffing the web at each 'hanger rod' location with a piece of 3/4" thick plywood on both sides then through bolt, hanging from the web which will utilize the full height strength of the I joist rather than just the bottom chord.

The spacing of your 'hanger rods' would need to take into account the load you're anticipating on the shelf.

Just my two cents with the info you presented.

 

[25WildBlue]

When you use the term 'rim', I assume you're referring to the rear member that you're attaching to the wall, if so the correct term is 'ledger'.
From what I can picture from your explanation is your floor joist run perpendicular to the 22' direction.

What is the O/C spacing of the floor joist?

I would suggest stiffing the web at each 'hanger rod' location with a piece of 3/4" thick plywood on both sides then through bolt, hanging from the web which will utilize the full height strength of the I joist rather than just the bottom chord.

The spacing of your 'hanger rods' would need to take into account the load you're anticipating on the shelf.

Just my two cents with the info you presented.

Yeah, sorry, I'm referring to the ledger board around the perimeter of wall; it will attach to 3 walls.

Yes, the joists run perpendicular.

Hopefully the images worked; you can see I would only have access to 1 I-joist for adding web stiffeners...I can't span 2 joists because I can't access the other web on both sides.

 

[25WildBlue]

https://i.imgur.com/BQWh6bo.png

 

[The Tool Tyrant]

Link no workie.

What is the spacing on the single I-joist?

 

[theoldwizard1]

First, what kind of loads are you taking about placing on this 4'x22' shelf ? You collection of a dozen small bloc Chevy 350 engines, or something a little lighter ?

Second, I would use a 2x6 ledger screwed to back wall, 2 SPAX per stud would be good for "reasonable" loads. What are you going to use for the front 22' span ? 22' lumber is not always available. You could use TWO 2x10 of 8' and 14'. Glued and screwed together (making a 4x10) but make sure the joints do NOT overlap.

Third, attaching this front "beam" to a ledger with hangers in NOT GOING TO CUT IT ! You need a 4x6 post under the end of each beam to carry the load down to the floor.

Fourth, 2x4 16" O.C. and 1/2" plywood sounds acceptable Again, depending on the load, 2x6 24" O.C. may be adequate.

How many of the this stainless steel "down rods" are you going to install, where and what spacing ?

 

[mobetta]

I'd probably just run a sammy every other joist and call it good.

unless you have a forklift or something to load the shelving up heavy.

 

[25WildBlue]

Man. It’s sad I’m a software engineer and can’t post a couple of pics on a forum.
I added them all to the original post but the one is tiny.

The i joists Are 16” oc, except every other one which is less obviously.

 

[The Tool Tyrant]

Are the 'double' I-joist nailed together or can they be spread apart at the bottom enough to allow web fillers to be inserted?

Okay, If this was for myself and guessing that I'm just placing the usual **** that most folks throw up into their attic space, I'd span the front 22' with a 4"X 16" parallam beam with a 4x4 post at each end to the floor and forget the rod hangers. An added benefit would be leaving the front unencumbered with vertical supports.

 

[25WildBlue]

Are the 'double' I-joist nailed together or can they be spread apart at the bottom enough to allow web fillers to be inserted?

Okay, If this was for myself and guessing that I'm just placing the usual **** that most folks throw up into their attic space, I'd span the front 22' with a 4"X 16" parallam beam with a 4x4 post at each end to the floor and forget the rod hangers. An added benefit would be leaving the front unencumbered with vertical supports.

No I can’t spread them. They’re tight. I added the pics on my orig post as attachments, I think those are at least working.

I guess a parallam works but that’s $$. Based on pull out strength and weight rating I can find for a specific brand of joist, I’m thinking I have somewhere in the 6000# range of lag pull out, which I realize doesn’t correlate directly to how much I can hang. But My most concerning failure point was lags pulling out the bottom flange.

First, what kind of loads are you taking about placing on this 4'x22' shelf ? You collection of a dozen small bloc Chevy 350 engines, or something a little lighter ?

Second, I would use a 2x6 ledger screwed to back wall, 2 SPAX per stud would be good for "reasonable" loads. What are you going to use for the front 22' span ? 22' lumber is not always available. You could use TWO 2x10 of 8' and 14'. Glued and screwed together (making a 4x10) but make sure the joints do NOT overlap.

Third, attaching this front "beam" to a ledger with hangers in NOT GOING TO CUT IT ! You need a 4x6 post under the end of each beam to carry the load down to the floor.

Fourth, 2x4 16" O.C. and 1/2" plywood sounds acceptable Again, depending on the load, 2x6 24" O.C. may be adequate.

How many of the this stainless steel "down rods" are you going to install, where and what spacing ?

Heavy ish things. Quick math maybe 1000lbs of bins. I weighed a few of the wife’s decoration bins and avg was 30lbs. We have like 40 of those. They might not all fit. I can do 1/2” or 3/4” ply. Everything is open for debate now.
Was planning on dropping 4 rods through the plywood, to a 12ft piece of unistrut under the joists, parallel with my front beam. So the joists would essentially be supported by unistrut which was hung from ceiling detail.

 

[The Tool Tyrant]

I guess a parallam works but that’s $$. Based on pull out strength and weight rating I can find for a specific brand of joist, I’m thinking I have somewhere in the 6000# range of lag pull out, which I realize doesn’t correlate directly to how much I can hang. But My most concerning failure point was lags pulling out the bottom flange.

Consider that the design of the I-joist is figured for compressive load. The web is glued into the top & bottom chords, and the load is placed above the top chord. By attaching solely to the bottom chord, your relying on the glue bond to support the load in tension that you're applying.

Construction time would be much quicker with the parallam. With 2 layers of 5/8 drywall, I have to assume it's a fire separation.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Heavy ish things. Quick math maybe 1000lbs of bins. I weighed a few of the wife’s decoration bins and avg was 30lbs. We have like 40 of those. They might not all fit. I can do 1/2” or 3/4” ply. Everything is open for debate now.

If the distance from the back wall ledger to the front cross beam is only 48" and your 1000 lb load is evenly spread out, 1/2" plywood (not OSB) on top of 2x4 16" O.C. is fine. No SBC engines !

Skip the drop down rods. I have a similar shelf on a 20' back wall carrying similar load. One support in the middle and the front beam which is a 2x8. The support is a 2x6 running from behind that 2x8 beam down the bottom plate of the wall. Being in the exact center it does not interfere with the nose of the car getting under the shelf. If you are paranoid, stick with the double 2x8/2x10 I mentioned before and make that center support a doubled 2x6. Just make sure it hits the bottom plate at the floor.

Do include the posts under the ends of the front beam.

 

[loganb]

Take a look at my build thread in my sig, specifically posts 4, 21, 44 and 45. I've got very similar shelving as you're thinking, just not as high of load rating. Part of it done with 2x3 framing lumber and plywood, other part done with unistrut and plywood. All with 3/8" down rods hung off Sammy anchors lagged into the bottom of 2x8 or 2x10 framing.

I don't find the downrods that annoying or in the way and would much rather have them then a tall front "beam" and posts going down to the floor at the ends but that's based on my layouts, yours is different and the posts may not be a big deal

 

[Skiff Builder]

Can you just use a TGI or two for the front span of the shelf. No hanging supports at all?

 

[moreover]

I have 1800lbs (I weighed each tote/item) on this with no sag at the middle after a year's time. I've monitored it with some marks on slab and lower shelf. I have since drywalled all the steel framing in.

The upper shelf is attached with all thread and turnbuckles to a 1x2x1/8 steel tube that has straps on either side of each perpendicular truss. they anchor to the top chord of 16" open web trusses (2x4 construction).

4' deep x 14' long.

 

[The Tool Tyrant]

If you're insistent on using the drop rods, rather than lagging into the bottom chord of the TJI's you could cut and install double 2x6 flat blocking between the webs, resting on the lips of the bottom chords. This would spread the load out a little more than lagging into the bottom chord. It would also allow you to drill your rod attachment holes thru the blocks, using a washer and nut on top of the blocks.

But personally, I believe the parallam beam is your best option. It allows your shelf to be independent of your floor system.

 

[CraigStu]

You say this is going on the front wall. Is that the same wall where the garage door(s) is? If so I am not sure this is a good idea because there is already a span designed to hold up the second floor and the roof and it may not be adequate for additional load.

 

[firebirdparts]

Sounds plenty strong to me. one lag bolt every 16" would suit me. It's pretty hard to load a shelf that heavy.

I-joists kind of creep me out on many levels, though, I admit it. The only thing holding that wimpy 2 x 3 up is glue. compare that to hanging it from the floor plate of that wall upstairs, with everything in compression. Compare that to floor [edit] trusses: You could run a strongback through there and pick up a bus. But in any case, it's only a shelf.

Note : I had the word "joists" here and I meant to say trusses, but it was just a throwaway comment.

 

[25WildBlue]

I have 1800lbs (I weighed each tote/item) on this with no sag at the middle after a year's time. I've monitored it with some marks on slab and lower shelf. I have since drywalled all the steel framing in.

The upper shelf is attached with all thread and turnbuckles to a 1x2x1/8 steel tube that has straps on either side of each perpendicular truss. they anchor to the top chord of 16" open web trusses (2x4 construction).

4' deep x 14' long.

That's a pretty slick setup; def giving me some ideas...

If you're insistent on using the drop rods, rather than lagging into the bottom chord of the TJI's you could cut and install double 2x6 flat blocking between the webs, resting on the lips of the bottom chords. This would spread the load out a little more than lagging into the bottom chord. It would also allow you to drill your rod attachment holes thru the blocks, using a washer and nut on top of the blocks.

Yeah, this is also something I've thought about, the only issue is that double I-joist....I can only block on 1 side of it. I could block 1 side, glued and through bolted because I could drill a small enough hole on the doubled side to get a bolt through.

You say this is going on the front wall. Is that the same wall where the garage door(s) is? If so I am not sure this is a good idea because there is already a span designed to hold up the second floor and the roof and it may not be adequate for additional load.

It is, but I'm not worried about it. There's a 4x12 LVL as the header along that entire wall, and the doors are framed with 4 stacked 2x4 on each side of the door from foundation to LVL.

Sounds plenty strong to me. one lag bolt every 16" would suit me. It's pretty hard to load a shelf that heavy.

I-joists kind of creep me out on many levels, though, I admit it. The only thing holding that wimpy 2 x 3 up is glue. compare that to hanging it from the floor plate of that wall upstairs, with everything in compression. Compare that to floor joists: You could run a strongback through there and pick up a bus. But in any case, it's only a shelf.

A lot of people talk about glue, but, the whole thing is glue anyway. The OSB web is just chips and glue, the top & bottom flanges are glued to the web....just a bunch of glue holding it together. FWIW glue is usually stronger than fasteners. Ever try pulling apart something stuck with PL? The wood splinters and shreds well before glue fails. But yeah, I agree, its more scary to me having framers who may or may not know all the proper ways to cut\install i joists; as they have a huge amount of rules vs lumber.

 

[nadogail]

I am most concerned about your mention of cutting the double layer of 5/8" drywall ceiling to attach your storage shelving.

Whenever I have seen double 5/8" drywall, it was used as a Fire Stop. If you are planning on cutting away a fire stop; my short advice is DON'T.

Please run this by your Local Authority Having Jurisdiction, that is your Building Permit Office.

 

[The Tool Tyrant]

Yeah, this is also something I've thought about, the only issue is that double I-joist....I can only block on 1 side of it. I could block 1 side, glued and through bolted because I could drill a small enough hole on the doubled side to get a bolt through.

Not an issue, you only need to toe-nail the flat blocks into the bottom chord. The double TJI's make no difference.

 

[25WildBlue]

I am most concerned about your mention of cutting the double layer of 5/8" drywall ceiling to attach your storage shelving.

Whenever I have seen double 5/8" drywall, it was used as a Fire Stop. If you are planning on cutting away a fire stop; my short advice is DON'T.

Please run this by your Local Authority Having Jurisdiction, that is your Building Permit Office.

You're right, it is, but its being replaced. It's only being removed for access, and 2x lumber qualifies as fire blocking as well. I'll take care to ensure everything is sealed back up with all penetrations accounted for.

I went through this rodeo when I sold my last house (same township) and had to redo all kinds of fire blocking that the previous owner removed...and suddenly became an issue for me while selling.

 

[25WildBlue]

Alright, taking a lot of advice from this thread....came up with a new plan.
I tried to draw it up quickly to describe what I'm thinking.

Going to use a combination of joist packing with 2x6 lumber and unistrut. I have a local metal supplier where its pretty cheap.

The picture should describe mostly what I'm thinking; only concern I'd have here is the double joist again, and only being able to pack 1 side. Is that going to cause some kind of unbalanced load or not matter too much since I'll be through bolting the web...my plan is to drill small 1" holes to access for bolting.

Based on what i've read in most all manufacturer design specs, I can drill holes pretty much anywhere in the web within 1/8" of flange, so long as there's no load bearing within 6" of the web (walls above or sills below).

What you guys think? This would actually be a lot easier since I'm working with smaller, lighter pieces on ladders, and require less material removal....only need small holes in the drywall to access the spaces I'm working.

edit: no idea why these keep being re-sized so tiny...hope you can understand it.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Going to use a combination of joist packing with 2x6 lumber and unistrut.

IMHO, a waste of time and money and I guarantee those down rods will be in your way ! A proper front beam with one center support down to the rear wall footer and two side posts (under the front beam) and you are done !

If you really must have an unsupported beam in front use TRIPLED 2x10s !

 

[25WildBlue]

IMHO, a waste of time and money and I guarantee those down rods will be in your way ! A proper front beam with one center support down to the rear wall footer and two side posts (under the front beam) and you are done !

If you really must have an unsupported beam in front use TRIPLED 2x10s !

you seen the price of lumber?!?! lol

2x10x12 is like $25...I'd need 6.

Locally I can get 12ft 12GA unistrut for like $18 and I'd need 1 plus brackets and hardware. I have a bunch of 2x6 scraps already so would not have to buy any.

 

[nadogail]

I look for load beams from Pallet Racking that I re-purpose into posts, pillars & beams. Having an Arc Welder in my garage is sometimes really handy.