Harbor Freight/Chinese Tool Deception

[2oolhound]

Yep. It's always someone else's fault, isn't it? We in the middle class are entitled to a great manufacturing jobs AND gosh darn it we have the right buy tools made in China, clothes made in Bangladesh, and cars made in Korea…..

Paying more for stuff is tough though. It's much easier to blame some evil rich dude, or the government.

The Power of ONE

Not trying to nitpick in the least, just an observation bc after working in US manufacturing I'm somewhat sensitive and notice these things - many folks make a serious effort, many more than most would believe. JMO, but I believe many folks today don't realize how much of an effort others make, and use it as justification buy the cheapest **** possible at Walmart, HF, and elsewhere. I firmly believe that if others would start waking up and realizing how many of their neighbors are like many here and go to serious lengths to avoid buying foreign goods then our manufacturing industry would flourish again pretty quickly….

Its kind of like smoking, many used "everybody" doing it as an excuse to do it themselves. Then slowly folks started waking up to the fact that not everybody was doing it, and it became unfashionable to do so.

There is nothing to "get", it's a debatable issue with varying opinions. The trade deficit the U.S. has with China is the largest in the world and the U.S. also does less to protect it's trade interests than any of the Asian countries selling products here. There is an imbalance that is not sustainable.

Yep, I think all you people with attitudes like these should go take a good look in the mirror. I think it's individuals attitudes like these that is at the heart of all the strife and trouble china is having with it's economy right now. If it weren't for these patriots around the world (yes, some in oz too) china could still be on it's projected coarse in becoming the world's leading economy. So go take a good look in the mirror and realize the effect you're having on the world's economy by buying (or NOT buying) according to coo and know - the power of ONE is spreading.

 

[bczygan]

Not sure what you're trying to point out...the graphic depicts China as our 3rd largest trade partner with the highest trade deficit by far.

Just trying to show what the entire context is. I find the entire thing interesting.

While China is the biggest deficit, it only accounts for about half the deficit. And we have deficits with just about everyone! Is that their fault for producing or our fault for producing less and consuming more, or both? Or maybe fault is the wrong word. Maybe choice is the word.

Would you be unhappy if our goods were all from elsewhere, and of high quality with a low price? And would it help if our incomes remained high at the same time?

To me, an ideal situation would be for others to use their raw materials and manpower for our benefit, while we were the invention and service society, that managed the world and created technology. Sound familiar? Seems like we do a lot of that right now.

Always like to see the big picture.

Bill

 

[Sprintman]

Who's talking about living in a bubble? It's merely stating the obvious and being interested in negotiating trade deals that serve our interests as favorably as possible. Some of you guys are funny, as long as you have access to cheap products you have no interest in having a discussion about the long term effects of such purchases.

I never buy 'cheap'. Leave the bubble, it is quite safe to do so

 

[2oolhound]

Interesting:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_the_United_States

Its worth taking a look at the BIG PICTURE, i.e.: a similar chart showing the situation EVERY country is in. Yes, a global map of all countries graphed like this one that shows just the USA 2 way flow. For example I've heard Japan holds a lion's share of china's national debt, similar to the US-china situation.

PS: Each one of these was less than $5 and all coo Euro, UK, NA (no china). It's easy if you're not born to shop (stay outa big box stores when you've got a spare $20 in your pocket).

 

[toddoky]

I never buy 'cheap'. Leave the bubble, it is quite safe to do so

I'm happy to report my existence is bubble-free. I am speaking of specific issues that affect American's lives here and how things have changed over the last 35 years here. Unless you are an expat living in Australia, you are not a stakeholder in the discussion. You live a country of 25 million that just signed a trade agreement with China to protect its interests...this country of 325 million would also benefit from the same type of negotiations to protect our interests.

 

[Farmall450]

I had the same thoughts. I was really surprised to see USA and then I realized it was a hoax.

 

[Don53]

To me, an ideal situation would be for others to use their raw materials and manpower for our benefit, while we were the invention and service society, that managed the world and created technology. Sound familiar? Seems like we do a lot of that right now.

Bill

I think we've been in that situation for three decades (or so), and it's kept our collective heads above water.... so far.

I was born in '71, and my dad worked on the line at GM. He always told me I was going to college, because he knew jobs like his would be long gone by the time I entered the workforce. i.e., he knew I'd either need to be an "inventor" or get some skill that would be less likely to be off-shored in order for me to enjoy the same standard of living as he had.

The concern with the long term viability of basing our economy solely on the ability to invent, manage, service, etc. is that it counts on a resource advantage of smart, driven, and educated people. Historically that's been an edge for the US (& other first world countries), but places like China, India, etc. have plenty of smart, driven, and (more & more) educated people... willing to work for much less. Our competitive advantage (from a national standpoint) in these areas is eroding quickly.

i.e., the jobs our middle class (or upper middle class) count on today, may be gone sooner than we think. e.g., engineers, software developers, accountants, medical researchers, etc.

We're Americans and many of us probably think we'll find a way to stay ahead... and live in a country that provides the opportunity for a decent standard of living for anyone willing to work for it. I hope so (I have kids), but I haven't really seen anyone articulate how that's going to happen (other than suggesting the next generation just all need to be Bill Gates / Steve Jobs types!).

It kind of is what it is, and the US will need to figure out how to compete.

Getting back to buying US, I think having at least some mfg. jobs in the US can't hurt. I have neighbors with manufacturing jobs, and having neighbors with jobs is better than having unemployed neighbors. That's why I try to buy US (or at least buy from "US based" companies that make (or assemble) some of their product(s) in the US)!

Probably a lost cause, and obviously my individual efforts don't impact anything, but it seems like it's in the best interest of my country (& therefore in my personal best interest as well).

Don

 

[sometoyotaguy]

One of the problems I run into is that I can't afford the horribly overpriced tools that are still made in the US. Snap-On comes to mind. I'll buy used where I can, but that doesn't help the current economy.

Part of me feels like I'm picking off a carcass of better days by buying US tools at yard sales, but it's the best way to get decent tools for not much money.
People don't seem to care about tools much anymore with the throwaway society that we have. I'll see a 2 car garage with only a hammer in the corner. It's sad.

 

[Don53]

One of the problems I run into is that I can't afford the horribly overpriced tools that are still made in the US. Snap-On comes to mind. I'll buy used where I can, but that doesn't help the current economy.

Buying used can help. You're still creating demand for US made tools. Your demand for US used tools may translate to someone else's demand for new US made tools (i.e., because they're upgrading the tool they sold to you, or they have to buy new because you bought the only used one at the flea market).

Many would argue there are lots of affordable made in US options (tools & otherwise)... you just have to hunt for them. Snap On being the worst example (price wise). What's affordable and how much of a premium one is willing or able to pay to have "made in USA" stamped on it is a personal decision.

I think most people get that... price and availability are legitimate reasons to not buy "made in USA." What I don't get is the people that don't factor that variable into their purchasing decisions at all, and think there are zero consequences to their local, regional, or national economy. Yes we live in a global economy, but how you choose to spend your dollars could matter.

 

[jrobb316]

I think we've been in that situation for three decades (or so), and it's kept our collective heads above water.... so far.

I was born in '71, and my dad worked on the line at GM. He always told me I was going to college, because he knew jobs like his would be long gone by the time I entered the workforce. i.e., he knew I'd either need to be an "inventor" or get some skill that would be less likely to be off-shored in order for me to enjoy the same standard of living as he had.

The concern with the long term viability of basing our economy solely on the ability to invent, manage, service, etc. is that it counts on a resource advantage of smart, driven, and educated people. Historically that's been an edge for the US (& other first world countries), but places like China, India, etc. have plenty of smart, driven, and (more & more) educated people... willing to work for much less. Our competitive advantage (from a national standpoint) in these areas is eroding quickly.

i.e., the jobs our middle class (or upper middle class) count on today, may be gone sooner than we think. e.g., engineers, software developers, accountants, medical researchers, etc.

We're Americans and many of us probably think we'll find a way to stay ahead... and live in a country that provides the opportunity for a decent standard of living for anyone willing to work for it. I hope so (I have kids), but I haven't really seen anyone articulate how that's going to happen (other than suggesting the next generation just all need to be Bill Gates / Steve Jobs types!).

It kind of is what it is, and the US will need to figure out how to compete.

Getting back to buying US, I think having at least some mfg. jobs in the US can't hurt. I have neighbors with manufacturing jobs, and having neighbors with jobs is better than having unemployed neighbors. That's why I try to buy US (or at least buy from "US based" companies that make (or assemble) some of their product(s) in the US)!

Probably a lost cause, and obviously my individual efforts don't impact anything, but it seems like it's in the best interest of my country (& therefore in my personal best interest as well).

Don

Thats where you are wrong, and most people. Your purchase DOES impact and so does everyone elses. The only true vote we actually have is a vote with our dollars. Just look at how glass bottles have made such a comeback over plastic. Its because people said we don't want that **** and manufacturers are forced to make what people buy.

Toyotaguy: Your purchasing of used tools does help in the way that its starving the enemy. Nothing wrong with buying used, just remember the transaction has 2 parties. You are giving money for a good, and hopefully the seller uses it for daily living or upgrading what he's selling. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[2oolhound]

Probably a lost cause, and obviously my individual efforts don't impact anything, but it seems like it's in the best interest of my country (& therefore in my personal best interest as well).

Don

This is an important point. It's what I refer to as the power of one. It works much the same way as a terrorist cell, a mass of people share a common understanding and act INDIVIDUALLY without any input from any leader, mentor or what ever. We all can see the wealth of the nation transferring to foreign shores and watch as they return with the profits to buy up all the wealth in natural resources via publicly traded stocks etc.

By acting individually instead of saying "oh well, what can little ole me do anyway" we do something and unbeknownst to us is that your next door neighbour and the guy 3 doors down from him is doing exactly what you are. Next thing you know there's enough people doing it cumulatively worldwide that the giant machine slows down dramatically and the exodus of jobs and wealth becomes much more tolerable and controllable. But it has to start from the individual, that's who has to act. There will be many CEO's, shareholders and company owners who are banking on the consuming public to take what they feed you but their short term profits lead to long term consequences. It's time to slow things down, you're not alone.

 

[toddoky]

Just trying to show what the entire context is. I find the entire thing interesting.

While China is the biggest deficit, it only accounts for about half the deficit. And we have deficits with just about everyone! Is that their fault for producing or our fault for producing less and consuming more, or both? Or maybe fault is the wrong word. Maybe choice is the word.

Would you be unhappy if our goods were all from elsewhere, and of high quality with a low price? And would it help if our incomes remained high at the same time?

To me, an ideal situation would be for others to use their raw materials and manpower for our benefit, while we were the invention and service society, that managed the world and created technology. Sound familiar? Seems like we do a lot of that right now.

Always like to see the big picture.

Bill

You seem reasonable Bill and I respect your opinion enough to engage with you. We definately have a difference of opinion in regards to the current state of our trade situation; I find it annoying, whereas you find it interesting. Yes, I would be unhappy if all of our products were made elsewhere since that represents lost jobs here and my personal experience has shown me that "cheap cost" and "highest quality" are mutually exclusive, generally speaking. The Chinese have proven time and again that it is perfectly acceptable within the rules of their business culture to be dishonest and untrustworthy in their quest to maximize their profit margins. Most of us are aware of the proven stories of toxic drywall, tainted baby formula, cadmium laced toys, toxic wood floor and radioactive metal that has ended up on our shores. The Chinese are kings of fakery and making look-alike products that are good from far but far from good. If you like the current arrangement then I just have to assume I am more of a quality/safety ***** than you are and I'm OK with that being the case. The vast majority of students enrolled in Engineering classes in U.S. colleges are foreigners, so I would bet that put Engineering jobs up on the outsourcing chopping block before some other professions. I could go on and on about my distain for the Chinese products we're forced to buy now, but I've got to go change out three more of those Chinese CFL light bulbs that blow out every three months but are advertised to last 5-10 years.

 

[SweetD]

It's misleading and wrong to have that tool have the letters "USA" cast into it if it's not made here. Wrong and illegal.

That's all. Everything else about the COO argument will always be subjective and related to an individual's personal opinion.

But those wrenches should not have "USA" cast into them if they are not made here. I hate that sh!t.

Dave

 

[Sprintman]

You seem reasonable Bill and I respect your opinion enough to engage with you. We definately have a difference of opinion in regards to the current state of our trade situation; I find it annoying, whereas you find it interesting. Yes, I would be unhappy if all of our products were made elsewhere since that represents lost jobs here and my personal experience has shown me that "cheap cost" and "highest quality" are mutually exclusive, generally speaking. The Chinese have proven time and again that it is perfectly acceptable within the rules of their business culture to be dishonest and untrustworthy in their quest to maximize their profit margins. Most of us are aware of the proven stories of toxic drywall, tainted baby formula, cadmium laced toys, toxic wood floor and radioactive metal that has ended up on our shores. The Chinese are kings of fakery and making look-alike products that are good from far but far from good. If you like the current arrangement then I just have to assume I am more of a quality/safety ***** than you are and I'm OK with that being the case. The vast majority of students enrolled in Engineering classes in U.S. colleges are foreigners, so I would bet that put Engineering jobs up on the outsourcing chopping block before some other professions. I could go on and on about my distain for the Chinese products we're forced to buy now, but I've got to go change out three more of those Chinese CFL light bulbs that blow out every three months but are advertised to last 5-10 years.

Who exactly is 'forcing you to buy?' And as there are with all countries there are top quality Chinese, middling quality, and poor quality. Are you suggesting that only the poor quality is available in the U.S?

 

[oldtools]

Back on topic. We don't really know whether the Chinese company or the American company is being deceptive. HF (American company) constantly change suppliers that make tools for its brands (Pittsburg, Central Pneumatic, etc..). I am pretty sure when a Chinese supplier make a custom die for "Pittsburg" tools, I would think HF would have to approve it before the Chinese supplier move forward with production. Either that or HF told the suppliers it does not care what other marking is on the tool as long as it has "Pittsburg" on it and the Chinese company decided to add "USA STD" on it. Craftsman, SO, MAC, Cornwell, Matco, etc ask the Chinese suppliers not to stamp "CHINA" on the tools, hence you don't see them. You see "CHINA" on Chinese brands or no name brands tools.

 

[toddoky]

Who exactly is 'forcing you to buy?' And as there are with all countries there are top quality Chinese, middling quality, and poor quality. Are you suggesting that only the poor quality is available in the U.S?

Forced to buy in the sense that no non-Chinese alternative exists...it happens a lot with consumer goods in this country...walking the isles of our retail stores and flipping labels shows mostly a sea of Chinese goods. If you can give me an example of top quality Chinese goods I'd love to hear it as I've never seen anything I'd apply that tag to here. Mid-level maybe, but that would be a stretch as I expect all products I purchase to have a reasonable life to be considered a quality item.

 

[toddoky]

Back on topic. We don't really know whether the Chinese company or the American company is being deceptive. HF (American company) constantly change suppliers that make tools for its brands (Pittsburg, Central Pneumatic, etc..). I am pretty sure when a Chinese supplier make a custom die for "Pittsburg" tools, I would think HF would have to approve it before the Chinese supplier move forward with production. Either that or HF told the suppliers it does not care what other marking is on the tool as long as it has "Pittsburg" on it and the Chinese company decided to add "USA STD" on it. Craftsman, SO, MAC, Cornwell, Matco, etc ask the Chinese suppliers not to stamp "CHINA" on the tools, hence you don't see them. You see "CHINA" on Chinese brands or no name brands tools.

One of the reasons HF has multiple suppliers for the same product is that the know they will need to find a new supplier for said item every couple of years to deal with quality fade. If worked in engineereing and product development for 15 years dealing with China suppliers and this is a known and expected issue for those of us that deal with this as part of our jobs.

 

[bczygan]

You seem reasonable Bill and I respect your opinion enough to engage with you. We definately have a difference of opinion in regards to the current state of our trade situation; I find it annoying, whereas you find it interesting. Yes, I would be unhappy if all of our products were made elsewhere since that represents lost jobs here and my personal experience has shown me that "cheap cost" and "highest quality" are mutually exclusive, generally speaking. The Chinese have proven time and again that it is perfectly acceptable within the rules of their business culture to be dishonest and untrustworthy in their quest to maximize their profit margins. Most of us are aware of the proven stories of toxic drywall, tainted baby formula, cadmium laced toys, toxic wood floor and radioactive metal that has ended up on our shores. The Chinese are kings of fakery and making look-alike products that are good from far but far from good. If you like the current arrangement then I just have to assume I am more of a quality/safety ***** than you are and I'm OK with that being the case. The vast majority of students enrolled in Engineering classes in U.S. colleges are foreigners, so I would bet that put Engineering jobs up on the outsourcing chopping block before some other professions. I could go on and on about my distain for the Chinese products we're forced to buy now, but I've got to go change out three more of those Chinese CFL light bulbs that blow out every three months but are advertised to last 5-10 years.

I find it interesting because I don't have the time, or energy or money to tilt at windmills. I am forced to be a pragmatist and accept the world the way it is. I marvel at it's complex, annoying, shocking, despicable, tragic, miserable, amazing, etc. etc.........state.

I appreciate finely engineered and produced things. I happily gave up my heavy, rusty ************* Schwinn Varsity for a light alloy foreign made road bike with quality components. It would be great to have that kind of quality in all aspects of life. But most products are now commodities. Buy it. Use it. Wear it out or break it. Toss it. Buy another.

Even cars are now leased commodities.

Rent your software.

Rent your house.

Rent your furniture.

Rent your TV.

Buy everything on credit, even your food and entertainment.

Hmmmmmm.....!

It isn't the world I remember.

It isn't the one I designed.

It is the one I live in.

I'll use the parts I like. Put up with the ones I must. And laugh at the insanity of it all.

Life is too important to be taken so seriously!

Bill

 

[Tinner]

This kind of tricky BS has been going on for a long time. Hell, look at the U.S. General Toolboxes. Or all the Pittsburgh tools.

There's an excellent book on it. It's very well written and entertaining, so it's not at all a boring dry read.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0470928077/?tag=atomicindus08-20

I ordered that book. I'm only about 40 pages into it, but so far an excellent read. Thanks for the recommendation.

 

[toddoky]

I find it interesting because I don't have the time, or energy or money to tilt at windmills. I am forced to be a pragmatist and accept the world the way it is. I marvel at it's complex, annoying, shocking, despicable, tragic, miserable, amazing, etc. etc.........state.

I appreciate finely engineered and produced things. I happily gave up my heavy, rusty ************* Schwinn Varsity for a light alloy foreign made road bike with quality components. It would be great to have that kind of quality in all aspects of life. But most products are now commodities. Buy it. Use it. Wear it out or break it. Toss it. Buy another.

Even cars are now leased commodities.

Rent your software.

Rent your house.

Rent your furniture.

Rent your TV.

Buy everything on credit, even your food and entertainment.

Hmmmmmm.....!

It isn't the world I remember.

It isn't the one I designed.

It is the one I live in.

I'll use the parts I like. Put up with the ones I must. And laugh at the insanity of it all.

Life is too important to be taken so seriously!

Bill

My needs for achieving satisfaction in life differ from yours Bill, but I do appreciate your attitude. The disposable nature of most products available presents a cheapness I find un-enjoyable.

 

[MoparTrucks]

I think there is a lot of deceptive labeling and advertising right now and we ought to call them on it. I buy stuff from HF because I enjoy finding their bargains and modifying them to suit my needs; I have a couple tool chests, welder cart, cherry picker, arbor press, sockets, and a few tools and they do me very well for what I pay but not once, ever, have I gone into HF and said..hey this must be made in the good old USA. I see a lot of Americans working there...but come on.

However, I often buy a cheap version of something at HF to try it out (i.e., I have recently gotten into metal working) and if its something I find useful I look for the more quality version. I have also found that many companies use the same manufacturer and just put a different label on it. I live close to a grizzly outlet and they have HF copies of things as their lower end models and Northern Tool sells the same horizontal band saw as HF and Grizzly...identical. My buddy has a Blue Point 5 drawer tool cart he just bought because he couldn't be seen at HF....I have the HF cart....the $300 or so I saved is going to purchase the Porter Cable floor drill press...also made in China.

My wife is a retired union worker, I try to buy made in the USA when I can but increasingly that is just not going to happen and we probably ought to stop wishing for the impossible.

 

[1982fxr]

One of the problems I run into is that I can't afford the horribly overpriced tools that are still made in the US. Snap-On comes to mind. I'll buy used where I can, but that doesn't help the current economy.

Part of me feels like I'm picking off a carcass of better days by buying US tools at yard sales, but it's the best way to get decent tools for not much money.
People don't seem to care about tools much anymore with the throwaway society that we have. I'll see a 2 car garage with only a hammer in the corner. It's sad.

heard of HJE ? it's awesome

 

[bczygan]

My needs for achieving satisfaction in life differ from yours Bill, but I do appreciate your attitude. The disposable nature of most products available presents a cheapness I find un-enjoyable.

I feel you.

I bemoan the losses as keenly.

But a closed company, that used to make say, Fisher Anvils, or Parker Vises, or the incremental losses, like the changes at Sears, are like the pieces of Humpty Dumpty. We can't put them together again.

And I think a part of our malaise, over what we have lost, is mixed up with other losses of our lives. The simple certainties of the 50's, when I was young, are replaced with a complicated and confusing world. All the old standards and practices are gone or changed. Even our places and purposes in the world are now unclear. Over my 65 years, I have been staggered by changes in my life and the world I live in, to the point where it is almost unrecognizable. Generation after generation comes and remakes it in their own image, while pieces of my old familiar world are discarded like so much flotsam and jetsam. I am weary with it, and wish for something immovable to count on, something firm to stand on. Even Sears and Craftsman, that simple but ironclad contract I could count on, floats away into the mist.

But it's not just about a line of tools, or manufacturing in general or even our place in the world as a nation that is befuddling me. It's a fear that I live in a nation on the decline, splintered and directionless, without a moral compass, where there is no common purpose, and every voice and heart is singing a different tune.

Can I stomach these losses, real and perceived?

I must.

Life and time go on in a changing world. I can curl up and spend my days wishing for what will never again be. Or I can look into the world that is, and enjoy what I can find there, that can be enjoyed.

One thing. It sure makes me appreciate some of the things I had.

Bill

 

[zendriver]

Once you darken the threshold of that place, I think any expectation of a US made tool should have already left your being. Your wrench thing came up in another thread here about 6 months ago. I think with a few exceptions (some sprays & lubes, zip ties, other plastic trinkets, some air hoses and maybe one of the bigger compressors) there are no "made in USA" tools to speak of.

Maybe that's why the store was named "Harbor Freight"

Simply looks like the "no name pipe wrench company" of China did a "WTH" and HF buyers did not catch it.

Would not be surprised to see the lettering on the the item (or the item itself) disappear.

Maybe Americans have convinced themselves, they can still get a well made American made pipe wrench, with quality American metal and built by well paid Americans, for thirteen bucks.

 

[d.mcfarland]

Thread revival.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

I still think it's deceptive. JMO, 7 years later.


I have some cheapo HF pipe wrenches for beater use. They ****. But they can also get the job done. I wouldn't put a cheater on one though.