Hard start kits?

[bbrz]

Family next door changed out the HVAC system. We both have the same 30+ year old Lennox HS18 condensers. Got nosey when the Tech was pumping down the new system and he noticed my old unit was the same. Gave me the Super Boost SPP-6 out of the scrap unit. His thinking was that I should put it on my start cap (common and comp. start legs)to baby mine along until future change out. Question- put it on the old system, or leave things as is?

 

[Dagny]

working? dont fix it.

 

[bonneyman]

Yeah, I'm with Dag. Let a sleeping dog lie.

 

[Climatecreator]

Leave it. But hold on to it for the future.

CC

 

[Richard Cranium]

agreed, don't touch it, but keep the parts for later.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

If you do decide to put it in, add a delay on break timer to the control circuit, too.

Tommy

 

[man00]

Think I rather use the Compressor Saver 5-2-1

 

[Climatecreator]

Think I rather use the Compressor Saver 5-2-1

Agreed. https://amzn.to/2lwZ9YU definitely my favorite!

CC

 

[bonneyman]

If the comp starts having any start issues, just be sure to check the existing run cap first. Alot of techs automatically slap a hard start kit on when the comp fails to start, only to miss a run cap that has lost some micro-farads or failed completely. The comp will usually start (so you think you've fixed the problem) only to have it fail shortly down the road due to burned out windings from not having correct run capacitance.

 

[bobbyjean]

If the comp starts having any start issues, just be sure to check the existing run cap first. Alot of techs automatically slap a hard start kit on when the comp fails to start, only to miss a run cap that has lost some micro-farads or failed completely. The comp will usually start (so you think you've fixed the problem) only to have it fail shortly down the road due to burned out windings from not having correct run capacitance.

winner winner chicken dinner-this boy is good

 

[yeldogt]

Family next door changed out the HVAC system. We both have the same 30+ year old Lennox HS18 condensers. Got nosey when the Tech was pumping down the new system and he noticed my old unit was the same. Gave me the Super Boost SPP-6 out of the scrap unit. His thinking was that I should put it on my start cap (common and comp. start legs)to baby mine along until future change out. Question- put it on the old system, or leave things as is?

Are you saying -- the guy heard your unit making noise?

Years ago the cheaper units in a line would not come with a hard start kit .. but when you moved up to the better lines -- they would have a hard start kit. Many units have them shown on the wire diagram -- with optional listed.

Anytime, you hear any odd noises you should give the unit a look -- many times they have a kit and it's the other capacitors that need changing.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Think I rather use the Compressor Saver 5-2-1

Why? It takes longer to install, requires more space in the control panel, costs more and uses a pot relay, so it is more likely to fail. The SPP6 uses a PTTC relay with no moving parts.

Tommy

 

[man00]

Why? It takes longer to install, requires more space in the control panel, costs more and uses a pot relay, so it is more likely to fail. The SPP6 uses a PTTC relay with no moving parts.

Tommy

To each his own, this could get into a Intel/AMD, Ford/Chevy, debate..no thanks

 

[OccupantRJ]

My shop package heat pump is about 18 years old, but had been run only one year, then removed and placed into storage until I got it and installed it. After about 2 years of running The compressor decided to no-start recently. After doing a few checks and capacitor swaps, I installed a Supco hard start I had bought from a yard sale for $2, and had stored in my contingency materials building. Happily, it is off and running again. Even if things fail down the road, the unit was given to me in return for some favors anyway, so I have no money in it other than the ductwork and install materials.

This is the second time a hard start has got me going like this over the years. The last unit ran for over 8 more years after I installed the hard start, and only quit then due to a flood in that location. They have sure done well for me.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

To each his own, this could get into a Intel/AMD, Ford/Chevy, debate..no thanks

Absolutely to each his own. You won't get any debating from me, even though the PTTC is a proven more reliable design. I was more wondering if they had technical reasons why, not just personal preference. If people me "I used to use XXXX, but now I use YYYY because it does ZZZZ better, I keep it in mind and I try the other product. I've replaced many of my "Go To" products over the years after people have showed me something better.

Tommy

 

[Climatecreator]

Absolutely to each his own. You won't get any debating from me, even though the PTTC is a proven more reliable design. I was more wondering if they had technical reasons why, not just personal preference. If people me "I used to use XXXX, but now I use YYYY because it does ZZZZ better, I keep it in mind and I try the other product. I've replaced many of my "Go To" products over the years after people have showed me something better.

Tommy

Exactly,

Not to mention, if that all in one style "booster" is so wonderful why don't all the manufacturers use it right off the line? They're ALWAYS looking to shave a few dollars off the production costs.

It's mostly because they fail more often and won't get them past the warranty period.

Yes that kit is more expensive but worth it to me to replace all the OEM stuff that's out there.

CC

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Exactly,

Not to mention, if that all in one style "booster" is so wonderful why don't all the manufacturers use it right off the line? They're ALWAYS looking to shave a few dollars off the production costs.

It's mostly because they fail more often and won't get them past the warranty period.

Yes that kit is more expensive but worth it to me to replace all the OEM stuff that's out there.

CC

Actually, most equipment these days that has a start cap (which is very few) uses a PTTC instead of a relay, but I can understand your line of thought. If you have a different preference than me, it doesn't make one of us wrong.




Tommy

 

[Climatecreator]

Actually, most equipment these days that has a start cap (which is very few) uses a PTTC instead of a relay, but I can understand your line of thought. If you have a different preference than me, it doesn't make one of us wrong.

[emoji481]


Tommy

Well... If we want to say MOST.....most equipment doesn't even have anything at all, at least here anyway.

For me at least the majority of FAILING equipment here is the cap and potential relay separates, if one falls I change both. When that all gets phased out I'll carry the next majority failing parts.

CC

 

[mpire]

Family next door changed out the HVAC system. We both have the same 30+ year old Lennox HS18 condensers. Got nosey when the Tech was pumping down the new system and he noticed my old unit was the same. Gave me the Super Boost SPP-6 out of the scrap unit.

I was in a similar situation and my neighbor was totally cool with me stripping all the electronics from the old AC system. The heat sensor, all the control boards, etc. I can tell you that it has already saved me money. When they tell you that they have to order a part and you already have a spare, that's cash in your pocket.

I also replaced my capacitors too, because they are like 10 bucks from Amazon instead of $150 from my AC guy.

I'm keeping my 18 year old AC humming along, I could be the only guy in the neighborhood with an original functioning AC unit.

 

[PWC Repair]

Exactly,

Not to mention, if that all in one style "booster" is so wonderful why don't all the manufacturers use it right off the line? They're ALWAYS looking to shave a few dollars off the production costs.

It's mostly because they fail more often and won't get them past the warranty period.

Yes that kit is more expensive but worth it to me to replace all the OEM stuff that's out there.

CC

We sell MANY of the SPP6 and the Mars 32702 but if it's an older compressor that's actually HARD to start the contractors tell me the 5-2-1 or Kickstart brand will get them going.

 

[bonneyman]

Back in the day Carrier used what they called a PTC device as a factory-installed start assist. About the size of a pill bottle. Anybody remember those?
Here's a vid on it.

And I did find some technical literature.

http://www.utcccs-cdn.com/hvac/docs/1011/Public/03/48201516000_ICP_13047.pdf

Alot cheaper than a cap and relay. A piece of junk as I recall. (If I came across a bad one I put in an SPP6 or something).

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Back in the day Carrier used what they called a PTC device as a factory-installed start assist. About the size of a pill bottle. Anybody remember those?
Here's a vid on it.

And I did find some technical literature.

http://www.utcccs-cdn.com/hvac/docs/1011/Public/03/48201516000_ICP_13047.pdf

Alot cheaper than a cap and relay. A piece of junk as I recall. (If I came across a bad one I put in an SPP6 or something).

They're the same thing...

Tommy

 

[bonneyman]

They're the same thing...

Tommy

Ha - did not know that. I thought they were discontinued years ago.

 

[OccupantRJ]

One of my units has a ceramite 2 wire PTC. Here is a paper I found that seems to have some good info in it relative to the 3 types of start systems.

http://www.vishay.com/docs/23086/ptc305c.pdf

 

[LS6 Tommy]

They're the same thing...

Tommy

Ha - did not know that. I thought they were discontinued years ago.

One of my units has a ceramite 2 wire PTC. Here is a paper I found that seems to have some good info in it relative to the 3 types of start systems.

http://www.vishay.com/docs/23086/ptc305c.pdf

I need to correct myself a little. A PTC Hard start kit is not really the same as a PTC start relay. The PTC hard start kit has both the PTC relay and a start cap. The PTC start as used in that old Carrier was just a PTC relay wired in parallel with the run cap, but without a start cap.

Tommy

 

[OccupantRJ]

If a hard start kit is installed on a unit with the factory PTC on it, is the PTC removed and replaced with the hard start or 5-2-1 kit? I would assume so? I put the Supco hard start on mine the other day to get it going as a test and left the 2 wire PTC in place because I could not decide what it did. The unit ran after that, but I have been doing more research and it would seem to me that the PTC would need to be removed so two things are not affecting each other.

I am not running the unit right now until I decide. Part of the supco label was peeled off so not much ID on it. Basically it told me the unit would at least start. Now I want to refine things. My unit times out 5 minutes before restart. By reading the paper, it looks like the 5-2-1 kit might be the better long term choice? Or the SPP6 with the solid state? That is less expensive than just another PTC, which I am not too crazy about. Opinions?

Edit: I just found that there is also a Supco SPP6E which incorporates a solid state potential relay.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

If you've proven it's faulty, I'd yank the old PTC out and keep the 5-2-1/SPP6 or the new SPP6E. It's really all preference. I prefer the Supco SPP_ models.

Tommy

 

[OccupantRJ]

While waiting on opinions here, I went to the AC supply and bought a new Supco SPP6 for $12 to put in the unit, since I could not really ID the number of the old one I had. My plan right now is to remove the PTC and install the SPP6 as the starter. I had already previously swapped in another combined capacitor to test that before I swapped back the original capacitor and installed the hard start, so I think this might do it. At least I get to experiment without being under high outdoor heat and family pressure, as this unit is on the shop, and all mine, at my leisure. This is the first PTC I had encountered, and before I read up, was unfamiliar with it. The SPP6 seems to be about 1/3 the cost of the stock PTC, plus has the cap to provide extra kick.

 

[OccupantRJ]

I went out late this afternoon and removed the factory PTC and installed the SPP6 in it's place. I had a clamp on amp meter on the leads at the disconnect at the unit. On startup, after the 5 minute wait, the unit kicked on and pulled only 7.9 amps at startup. After full compressor and fans speed was reached, the reading climbed to and leveled off at 11.9 running. I had my leg against the housing and could feel the cabinet flex inward from the indoor fan reaching speed.

I was surprised at the start reading, as I was already familiar with the running amps, so I used another of my clamp on amp meters to verify this on another start up. I got basically the same readings. I was surprised as I expected much more start current than that. Not quite sure what to think on the relationship of those numbers. Is the booster THAT efficient?

 

[Trey T]

If you own a Goodman (or any entry level brands w/ PSC motor) and want the compressor to start like a Trane, add one of those hard start (w/ the potential relay) to give a momentary boost. One of the shiet-talk about goodman is the compressor starting like a turd and it's true, it rumbles.

Trane uses separate relay and capacitor, and I think it might be more reliable than an all-in-one hardstart kit (i.e. supco spp6e).

 

[bonneyman]

I carry both the combined cap/circuitry unit (SPP-6) and separate cap and relay (KS-1). (I have seen the 5-2-1 unit but have not personally used it). I find that smaller compressors are served well with the SPP-6, and it's smaller overall. But the KS-1 does come in handy, being better suited to larger comps, and the two separate pieces allow for mounting in a cramped control compartment easier.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008A3UJ7I/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[LS6 Tommy]

I went out late this afternoon and removed the factory PTC and installed the SPP6 in it's place. I had a clamp on amp meter on the leads at the disconnect at the unit. On startup, after the 5 minute wait, the unit kicked on and pulled only 7.9 amps at startup. After full compressor and fans speed was reached, the reading climbed to and leveled off at 11.9 running. I had my leg against the housing and could feel the cabinet flex inward from the indoor fan reaching speed.

I was surprised at the start reading, as I was already familiar with the running amps, so I used another of my clamp on amp meters to verify this on another start up. I got basically the same readings. I was surprised as I expected much more start current than that. Not quite sure what to think on the relationship of those numbers. Is the booster THAT efficient?

No, the hard start kit's not that good, but any of them is better than the stock PTC. The PTC allows a large current boost to the start winding, but it does not cause a phase shift like a start capacitor. The phase shift is what makes a hard start kit or a start capacitor and a start relay more efficient.

The reason you saw a low starting current on startup is because unless they have a specific "Inrush Current" setting, your meters are not fast enough to capture the instantaneous inrush current. The compressor came up to speed faster with the hard start kit than it did with the original PTC, so the current peak dropped quicker before it could register on the meter. Instantaneous Inrush Current is somewhere between 4-10 times the running current (RLA).

Tommy

 

[OccupantRJ]

Thanks Tommy. That makes a bit more sense than what I was seeing. RLA on my unit is listed as 13.5 on my unit, and I am showing 11.9, so maybe all is well for a while longer. Thanks to all for the input. At least now I have more insight into what a PTC is and how it works, as they were unfamiliar to me before.