hard wood

[edl]

not entirely a garage question

we are looking to put hard wood in - we currently have something that looks like wood and is either a laminate or vinyl, glued right to the concrete - possibly it is "engineered wood" that i think means wood chips and resin?

does that have to be pulled up first or can the hardwood be laid down right on top of it?

thanks

 

[Cr0ck1]

All you can do “if its engineered” is lay a floating floor over it.

Floating floors come in laminate or engineered wood.

If your floor is a glued down engineered floor removing it will be hard. Jackhammers, scrapers. Ect,

Put up a pick of your floor and ill tell you what exactly it is..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[marineman]

First question how will your transition heights be to other rooms if you leave it? How old is the floor that's in place and how is it aging? Do you know if there's a vapor barrier under it?

Personally I would pull it, hardwood is quite the investment and I wouldn't want any chance of it getting messed up in order to save some work installing it. I also come from a house where everything that's original is done really well, everything done since then is a real half baked attempt so I tend to play a little defense and tear out more than I need to.

 

[James-W]

Where is this floor going to be installed? You mentioned the old flooring is glued to the concrete. Does that mean the new floor is going in the basement?

 

[cgrutt]

Assuming you will pull up whatever is there now... Hardwood over concrete can be done but it's generally not recommended. Best way to do it would be to to install a vapor barrier then sub-floor over cleats, then hardwood on top of that. In short, a lot of work and you lose min 2"-3" and may have issues with transitions, doors, etc. They also sell T&G flooring that is only 1/2 normal thickness (5/16 - 3/8) that glues down using a special (i.e., expensive) Urethane-based adhesive that forms a vapor barrier, adheres the floor and allows some seasonal movement. It's much easier than first option but not without potential problems. There are some really nice engineered "hardwood" floors that are made to be put over concrete. Or possibly bamboo might be an option (although not wood).

 

[jake00]

I do hardwood for a living (make it, sell it, install it)

You can glue directly to concrete, Or you can put down 3/4” ply and fasten the hardwood to that.

You could also get something like this, it has the same wear layer as 3/4” solid
http://www.somersetfloors.com/pages/solidVSengineered.html

 

[edl]

thanks guys

I suppose that keeping the old flooring is in fact a form of layer/barrier and avoids gluing directly to the concrete

there is no moisture detectable on the current floor - so i am assuming maybe they put a barrier down over the concrete? - if not, it in of itself seems to be acting as a barrier

so given the comments above, it seems to be (1) YES you can install hardwood over vinyl given the sub flooring is concrete (which is an acceptable sub floor) and (2) it may even be BETTER that the vinyl is there (this is not the cheap vinyl tiles or sheets...it is a material that looks just like hardwood, but is made of vinyl (or something close) and i am told can be as expensive or more than hardwood) because it creates a moisture barrier and a bedding of some sort

is that right?

 

[Angelfire]

thanks guys

I suppose that keeping the old flooring is in fact a form of layer/barrier and avoids gluing directly to the concrete

there is no moisture detectable on the current floor - so i am assuming maybe they put a barrier down over the concrete? - if not, it in of itself seems to be acting as a barrier

so given the comments above, it seems to be (1) YES you can install hardwood over vinyl given the sub flooring is concrete (which is an acceptable sub floor) and (2) it may even be BETTER that the vinyl is there (this is not the cheap vinyl tiles or sheets...it is a material that looks just like hardwood, but is made of vinyl (or something close) and i am told can be as expensive or more than hardwood) because it creates a moisture barrier and a bedding of some sort

is that right?

What would you nail the hardwood to?

I think what was said above is you can float an engineered product over the existing or remove what’s there and glue down hardwood.

And glued down hardwood works well if your situation allows it. Above ground and no moisture. I have glued down in 4 rooms in my house and it has been perfect.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Wood directly o top of concrete is a bad idea. Even wood "spaced" a few inches above concert is not a good idea. Concrete will almost always have some amount of moisture and depending on the season/temp/humidity, that moisture can be released. This will play havoc with the wood swell and shrink and ultimately failing.

There are some very nice looking imitation wood plank tile that works well on concrete.

 

[ChaseDE]

Yeah over concrete I would be either leaving what is there putting another vapor barrier over it, and floating a new floor over that using engineered or vinyl click-lock hardwood which is gonna..

• increasing the floor elevation 1/2" at most
• should be A-OK for basement/moisture
• probably cheapest option
• easiest install option

OR

ripping out the old and using that new porcelain wood plank which is pretty popular which is gonna...

• total pita to rip out old floor
• porcelain plank installed correctly should be water proof and last a long time
• more expensive than above option

OR

do the real hardwood the right way by building an actual moisture resistant and proper subfloor which is gonna..

• total pita to rip out old floor
• have to at least fasten 3/4" plywood to concrete with moisture barrier and such
• hardwood costs more, almost unequivocally to above options
• buy or rent a power cleat nailer which can be pricey
• the install itself is 4x as hard and time consuming because of said cleats

info on that. http://homeguides.sfgate.com/install-solid-wood-floors-basements-21465.html

FWIW I installed a large kitchens worth of nice click-lock floating in my kitchen, over the old lineoleum in like 8 hours tops.

It tooks me over 30 hours to install real 3/4"x2 1/4" t&g hardwood, using a power cleater in a room that is probably smaller then the kitchen. I only did this to match my existing hardwood in the hall and such...and the wife thought it would "be great"

Kitchen


Living Room

 

[cgrutt]

The real issue in my view (and I'm not a professional floor installer) is that wood expands and contracts with changes in relative humidity and temperature. Concrete doesn't. So if you glue real wood directly to concrete you have two forces acting against one another. The wood wants to move but the concrete stays fixed. How much of a potential issue this is depends on a large number of factors including but not limited to average relative humidity and temperature in your region and how much these values change seasonally, the species of wood that you pick, how it is cut (e.g., quarter sawn oak will be much more stable across face of the floor than plain sawn oak all other things equal), how the floor is finished (e.g. if top is finished but bottom is not (or doesn't have channels to allow vapor to escape through perimeter of room) the bottom will absorb more moisture than the top and it will be prone to cupping, what product is used to glue the floor to the concrete and what the RH tolerances are for that product, the age of the slab and how "dry" it is, whether the slab is absorbing moisture from below grade or other sources, if the slab is releasing salts, etc... As I said above it can certainly be done, just understand the potential issues and choose what will work best for you. Personally, I love real wood floors but would recommend an engineered product if you wanted to glue it directly to the concrete. Just my opinion, others will vary. Good luck.

 

[JR 42]

FWIW, I don't think installing plywood or sleepers over concrete is really the "right way" to install hardwood in your situation - if you want real wood, you need a quality engineered wood ("engineered" in this context just means it's not one piece of solid sawn wood all the way through, the top is a wood veneer and the core material can be plywood, solid sawn wood, fiberboard, strandboard, etc. etc.). The Somerset linked above is good stuff, but to float it you have to glue the tongues to the grooves. Kahrs would be a great choice, all their American-market stuff I've seen is click- together and very well made.

Maybe I missed it - are you below grade (in a basement), or on grade on a slab, or... ?

Your existing glued-down vinyl product only really works as a vapor barrier if it's a sheet product. It sounds like you might have a modular vinyl plank (LVT) installed, which is a bunch of narrow individual planks, so lots of seams. At any rate, you want a 6-mil poly under the new floating floor, and a thin pad of some kind to make the floor sound better.

Standard floating floor prep warning- your existing substrate needs to be flat and level to within about 3/16" in 10' per every manufacturer's spec I've ever seen.

 

[Angelfire]

The real issue in my view (and I'm not a professional floor installer) is that wood expands and contracts with changes in relative humidity and temperature. Concrete doesn't. So if you glue real wood directly to concrete you have two forces acting against one another. The wood wants to move but the concrete stays fixed. How much of a potential issue this is depends on a large number of factors including but not limited to average relative humidity and temperature in your region and how much these values change seasonally, the species of wood that you pick, how it is cut (e.g., quarter sawn oak will be much more stable across face of the floor than plain sawn oak all other things equal), how the floor is finished (e.g. if top is finished but bottom is not (or doesn't have channels to allow vapor to escape through perimeter of room) the bottom will absorb more moisture than the top and it will be prone to cupping, what product is used to glue the floor to the concrete and what the RH tolerances are for that product, the age of the slab and how "dry" it is, whether the slab is absorbing moisture from below grade or other sources, if the slab is releasing salts, etc... As I said above it can certainly be done, just understand the potential issues and choose what will work best for you. Personally, I love real wood floors but would recommend an engineered product if you wanted to glue it directly to the concrete. Just my opinion, others will vary. Good luck.

The glues developed and being used account for this movement. Hence one reason why more hardwood is being glued down vs. years ago. As I mentioned, climate and the situation plays a big part of whether or not glue down will be successful. I have floors down now for about 15 years without so much as a hint of problems. But I live in the high desert where humidity is typically around 15% except during the monsoons and I installed on grade.

I did have to remove one of my rooms floors as part of an addition I built. Getting that wood up after glueing it down with Bostiks Best, was one of the most labor intensive thing I've ever had to do. The stuff is absolutely tenacious.

 

[Angelfire]

Wood directly o top of concrete is a bad idea. Even wood "spaced" a few inches above concert is not a good idea. Concrete will almost always have some amount of moisture and depending on the season/temp/humidity, that moisture can be released. This will play havoc with the wood swell and shrink and ultimately failing.

There are some very nice looking imitation wood plank tile that works well on concrete.

May not work well in Michigan.....works great here!

 

[edl]

What would you nail the hardwood to?

if old floor comes out, my understanding is it glues to the cement

if old floor stays, hardwood would nail through the vinyl and into the concrete

this location is above grade

 

[DC73]

May not work well in Michigan.....works great here!

Agreed. His regional bias is showing.

DC