Hardie board siding woes...

[Innovate1]

Have 1st gen Hardie siding on the house and garage. Installed in 2004. I think they changed their process and improved it somewhat since then. Seems like the product isn't very solid inside - kind of powdery and probably absorb moisture. So is there something I could put on the spots where the paint has flaked off that is thinner and will penetrate a bit to firm things up? Above the garage OHD I have other issues going on as well as some chipping. Have never been able to keep the jamb board (the one flat against the top of the opening) from pulling down. Suspect it may be from moisture getting behind the siding but this side faces away from the direction of most weather so maybe not. Have considered pulling the trim board off and putting a z flashing above it. Any ideas?

 

[alwaysFlOoReD]

There should be drip cap,( Z flashing ),both above and below the white 1x6.

 

[PopcornSutton]

The stuff is prone to absorb moisture. I agree with the flashing, but it also needs to be caulked. Looks like the **** joint is swelling too.

 

[jack stand]

It's hard to judge the scale of your picture, but hardy calls for several inches of vertical space between a horizontal surface and the siding. In other words that partial course directly in contact with the white trim needs to go. You need to fabricate a piece of aluminum flashing that will flash the door trim and extend well up and under the course above.

 

[Innovate1]

It's hard to judge the scale of your picture, but hardy calls for several inches of vertical space between a horizontal surface and the siding. In other words that partial course directly in contact with the white trim needs to go. You need to fabricate a piece of aluminum flashing that will flash the door trim and extend well up and under the course above.

That requirement was added after mine was installed. They also changed just caulking the joints of the lap siding to putting flashing behind the joints. Think it was when they changed the product to what I call "Gen 2" - not sure what Hardie calls it. Seems they just quietly updated their product and install requirements. The install was done by a company that was Hardie approved and I believe they went by the install instructions for that time but they did some things that seemed a bit questionable. I agree the spacing and flashing would be good. For scale that trim board is a 1 x 4. I expect to have some serious work done on it before their claimed 50 year life. We did LP smart side on the shop we did about 5 years ago. A little early to know how it holds up over time but so far so good.

 

[PCustoms]

It's hard to judge the scale of your picture, but hardy calls for several inches of vertical space between a horizontal surface and the siding. In other words that partial course directly in contact with the white trim needs to go. You need to fabricate a piece of aluminum flashing that will flash the door trim and extend well up and under the course above.

Am I picturing that correctly, just a wide piece of flashing above the trim?

Kind sounds like it would look terrible...

Planning to re-side my house in the next month or (more then likely) next spring. Seems like all the options have downsides

 

[Jackfre]

If the bottom board is to be replaced you might consider replacing the Hardi with Azek PVC board. Once repair the bottom edge of the siding, add the Z-flash and you should be good. The Azek machines really well so you can put any detail you want on it. Here in CA with the fires I am a major fan of Hardi products putting it on my last two homes, well house, shop and sheds.

 

[75gmck25]

Similar kind of setup, and this is how my Hardie board was installed about 3 years ago.

The siding gaps (this one looks a little bigger than most) are not caulked, but there is flashing behind them, which is what Hardie specified. The wide trim board on the bottom is another manufactured product (Boral compressed coal ash?) that seemed to work better. The short trim ledge that sticks out at the bottom of the Hardie is PVC. The wide ledge on top of the brick is metal trim that I had bent to fit the shape and size I needed.

 

[WildBill]

I don't think that was a Hardie issue, that was a poor install without any flashing causing years of moisture behind the bottom piece. When I built my house in 2001 I used the same siding, only issue I have is where I had smaller than recommended gaps between the ends of boards causing a tiny bit of bowing out when the boards swell in the summer. I just left gaps and caulked between them as they called for back then, but made some gaps too small. Besides that it all looks perfect still, its as solid as when I put it up. Held the paint awesome too, its also in perfect shape but faded. I will cut the small gaps out a little and caulk again when I paint my house, my top of the line (at the time) Behr paint faded pretty badly over the years but the rep said its a known issue and is replacing the paint for free, which is pretty cool after 25 years.

 

[DGersic]

Have 1st gen Hardie siding on the house and garage. Installed in 2004. I think they changed their process and improved it somewhat since then. Seems like the product isn't very solid inside - kind of powdery and probably absorb moisture. So is there something I could put on the spots where the paint has flaked off that is thinner and will penetrate a bit to firm things up? Above the garage OHD I have other issues going on as well as some chipping. Have never been able to keep the jamb board (the one flat against the top of the opening) from pulling down. Suspect it may be from moisture getting behind the siding but this side faces away from the direction of most weather so maybe not. Have considered pulling the trim board off and putting a z flashing above it. Any ideas?

I have (had) something similar, about the same age as yours. I repaired it a couple of years ago, as part of repainting the house.

Over in the “What did you do in your garage today” thread, I showed the problem (your’s isn’t that bad, yet) and how I fixed it.

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum...r-garage-today.126997/page-1373#post-10344510

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum...r-garage-today.126997/page-1376#post-10352322

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum...r-garage-today.126997/page-1379#post-10360918

Water is absolutely the enemy of this stuff. Painted, it sheds water fine from the surface, but you must keep water from pooling along the bottom edge.

On mine, just the Azek trim piece probably would have been good enough. I went the extra mile with the 45* flashing because the original 90* flashing had some damage and ugly spots. I did not remove the original flashing, it goes up under the second course of siding as is very well attached. So I just went over it.

Removing the bottom course of siding sucked. There’s a guy on YouTube showing how “easy” it is. That was not my experience. This stuff has a very little flexibility, and if you stay within its limits, it’s fine. But there’s a point where it goes from flex to crack, and absolutely no warning.

From the picture of yours, I’d pull (destroy) the lowest course of siding, and remove that jamb board horizontal. Rework it so that the drip edge gets the water away from the area. Yours currently allows water to get behind it.

What you have now looks like wood trim under the edge of the siding, something like this:




What you need is something like the Azek PVC board I used, arranged so that its drip edge at the top protects the siding, and its drip edge at the bottom protects the jamb, like:



Plus repair whatever mess is hiding under that failed caulking and likely rotten wood trim.

 

[jack stand]

Am I picturing that correctly, just a wide piece of flashing above the trim?

Kind sounds like it would look terrible...

Planning to re-side my house in the next month or (more then likely) next spring. Seems like all the options have downsides

It does look terrible but it's part of their installation rules. Even a flashed windows or door requires this clearance above a drip/splash condition. Same goes for siding against an adjoining roof such as a dormer or lower attached garage roof.
I haven't messed with that stuff in years and it's best to read it for yourself as well as the warranty papers. They've got everything in it to get out of most any claim. I've heard that they'll take samples (at a claim) back to their laboratory and microscopic the face cover sheet looking for breaks in the "paper" indicating that it wasn't carried-handled vertically..... part of the installation instructions.

 

[CraigStu]

Once a month it seems there is a post about Hardie siding. Am I reading into this wrong? Or is this stuff woefully short of expectations? I 'guess' Hardie is more fire resistant? But as of now I am quite happy w/ builder grade vinyl siding.

 

[PCustoms]

Once a month it seems there is a post about Hardie siding. Am I reading into this wrong? Or is this stuff woefully short of expectations? I 'guess' Hardie is more fire resistant? But as of now I am quite happy w/ builder grade vinyl siding.

Kind of exactly where I'm at...

In fire country, strong contender. 200 year old colonial (lots around here) strong contender.

My 1980's ranch? Gonna get fresh vinyl next summer

 

[Hank11]

I think it’s a good product and that a lot of the problems come from improper install or improper design of the install. It’s not a “wham bam thank you ma’am” kind of product. Unfortunately a lot of the people that install it are.

 

[DGersic]

Once a month it seems there is a post about Hardie siding. Am I reading into this wrong? Or is this stuff woefully short of expectations? I 'guess' Hardie is more fire resistant? But as of now I am quite happy w/ builder grade vinyl siding.

I think it has some strong features and more than a few limitations that are not well understood by many installers. It’s a “simple” product, easy to work with and easy to nail up, without reading whatever directions it comes with, or understanding what it needs or why.

 

[DGersic]

Kind of exactly where I'm at...

In fire country, strong contender. 200 year old colonial (lots around here) strong contender.

My 1980's ranch? Gonna get fresh vinyl next summer

Vinyl siding is no panacea. It also needs to be installed correctly, by someone who knows WTF they are doing. Otherwise the first hot sunny day, it all buckles, or the first storm lands it all in the neighbor’s yard.

 

[loganb]

Once a month it seems there is a post about Hardie siding. Am I reading into this wrong? Or is this stuff woefully short of expectations? I 'guess' Hardie is more fire resistant? But as of now I am quite happy w/ builder grade vinyl siding.

Incorrect install is a significant problem with siding contractors in my area. I'm in discussions almost weekly with Hardi "certified" installers explaining how they're doing it wrong, showing them the instructions and offering to put their PM or super in touch with the factory technical support for the area when they don't believe it and keep saying "it's how we always do it". We just tell the builder who is our customer that when x,y or z happens it's due to the incorrect siding install and you can fix it now for x dollars and make the siding contractor do it right..or in 5 years for 10x...your choice.

 

[PCustoms]

Vinyl siding is no panacea. It also needs to be installed correctly, by someone who knows WTF they are doing. Otherwise the first hot sunny day, it all buckles, or the first storm lands it all in the neighbor’s yard.

Hardie siding is no panacea..it needs to be carried correctly, otherwise Hardie will void the warranty. It needs to be installed correctly, otherwise it will swell and Hardie will void the warranty. If gaps are not done correctly (and Hardie changed the instructions since released) there will be problems and Hardie will void the warranty. Hardie will charge $$$ compared to vinyl.

Did I get that right?

 

[Innovate1]

Hardie siding is no panacea..it needs to be carried correctly, otherwise Hardie will void the warranty. It needs to be installed correctly, otherwise it will swell and Hardie will void the warranty. If gaps are not done correctly (and Hardie changed the instructions since released) there will be problems and Hardie will void the warranty. Hardie will charge $$$ compared to vinyl.

Did I get that right?

That sounds about right to me but I must admit I am cynical about it...

 

[Innovate1]

I have (had) something similar, about the same age as yours. I repaired it a couple of years ago, as part of repainting the house.

Over in the “What did you do in your garage today” thread, I showed the problem (your’s isn’t that bad, yet) and how I fixed it.

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum...r-garage-today.126997/page-1373#post-10344510

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum...r-garage-today.126997/page-1376#post-10352322

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum...r-garage-today.126997/page-1379#post-10360918

Water is absolutely the enemy of this stuff. Painted, it sheds water fine from the surface, but you must keep water from pooling along the bottom edge.

On mine, just the Azek trim piece probably would have been good enough. I went the extra mile with the 45* flashing because the original 90* flashing had some damage and ugly spots. I did not remove the original flashing, it goes up under the second course of siding as is very well attached. So I just went over it.

Removing the bottom course of siding sucked. There’s a guy on YouTube showing how “easy” it is. That was not my experience. This stuff has a very little flexibility, and if you stay within its limits, it’s fine. But there’s a point where it goes from flex to crack, and absolutely no warning.

From the picture of yours, I’d pull (destroy) the lowest course of siding, and remove that jamb board horizontal. Rework it so that the drip edge gets the water away from the area. Yours currently allows water to get behind it.

What you have now looks like wood trim under the edge of the siding, something like this:




What you need is something like the Azek PVC board I used, arranged so that its drip edge at the top protects the siding, and its drip edge at the bottom protects the jamb, like:



Plus repair whatever mess is hiding under that failed caulking and likely rotten wood trim.

That looks really good. Thanks for the tip on the Azek. How you show would ensure it drains although with the open joints above I might be getting a bit of moisture behind (maybe why things are pulling away). Maybe some flashing between the lower two blue boards you show and a very small gap with the flashing tucked behind the house wrap. It would change the look of the opening but I think that would be ok. It has 45 degree corners so those would need to be square edge boards and probably a z flashing above although I am just thinking abut that now. The flashing like the top would work ok I think.

I know the installers just folded the house wrap up and stuck the board over it because I have had that board off before. 90 degree z flashing really bugs me too - none in this spot but the crew that did the shop with LP smartside did really crisp 90s - I bet they were really proud of that but they don't drain well. There are a few spots I thought I should take some caulk in a small tube and fill in the ends so it doesn't go off the end rather than the edge. I really don't want to tackle this myself so I need to find a good contractor.

 

[BombShelter]

I don't own any of the product but I've looked at it up close for years. I don't see it nearly as much as I did 20 years ago. I looked into problems with it years ago and it seems most issues are with faulty installation or short-cutting the instructions. I'd read the installation manual and do exactly what they say. Getting moisture inside this product is not good if you have freeze/thaw.

This guy seems to be our local inspection expert and I've seen other failure articles written by him in regards to this product.

Problems With James Hardie Siding Installations

James Hardie lap siding is great product, but it only performs as well as it's installed. I've heard a few complaints about this product from various home buyers, mostly anecdotal evidence about how the material deteriorates, but I've found improper installations on every damaged section of...

structuretech.com

 

[Innovate1]

That looks really good. Thanks for the tip on the Azek. How you show would ensure it drains although with the open joints above I might be getting a bit of moisture behind (maybe why things are pulling away). Maybe some flashing between the lower two blue boards you show and a very small gap with the flashing tucked behind the house wrap. It would change the look of the opening but I think that would be ok. It has 45 degree corners so those would need to be square edge boards and probably a z flashing above although I am just thinking abut that now. The flashing like the top would work ok I think.

I know the installers just folded the house wrap up and stuck the board over it because I have had that board off before. 90 degree z flashing really bugs me too - none in this spot but the crew that did the shop with LP smartside did really crisp 90s - I bet they were really proud of that but they don't drain well. There are a few spots I thought I should take some caulk in a small tube and fill in the ends so it doesn't go off the end rather than the edge. I really don't want to tackle this myself so I need to find a good contractor.

Any suggestions on how to handle the 45 degree corners?

 

[DGersic]

Hardie siding is no panacea..it needs to be carried correctly, otherwise Hardie will void the warranty. It needs to be installed correctly, otherwise it will swell and Hardie will void the warranty. If gaps are not done correctly (and Hardie changed the instructions since released) there will be problems and Hardie will void the warranty. Hardie will charge $$$ compared to vinyl.

Did I get that right?

Pretty much, yeah.

 

[DGersic]

Any suggestions on how to handle the 45 degree corners?

No good ones off the top of my head.

 

[Hank11]

Any suggestions on how to handle the 45 degree corners?

Yes, make each joint angled to better shed water. The top would be dead on top of the next and so on. Change the cuts so no joints are open to the top.

 

[Rusted Nut]

No matter what product that is, or when it was installed; the bottom board should have flashing over it. Best thing would be remove the bottom piece, add flashing, and install new or reinstall. For the 45 deg thing; you cut the top wing of the flashing and bend the bottom to fit the 45; then add a piece of flashing over the cut you made on the top wing. I’m sure Google has some details.

 

[Innovate1]

Yes, make each joint angled to better shed water. The top would be dead on top of the next and so on. Change the cuts so no joints are open to the top.

Like this? Thinking the top joint could be flashed to be open behind the board like I described earlier (no z flashing) but the lower joint would need a z flashing at the joint - cut a slit in the house wrap to get the flashing behind it or use tape on the top of the flashing if it's placed over the wrap. Not sure about flashing the top of the board on the 45 - I guess the bottom of the flashing could come out at a lap joint in the siding but could also just caulk it and any leaking would be caught by the flashing behind?

 

[Hank11]

Like that and also run the 45* board out over the vertical board so you have another “draining to the outside” joint.
Flashing the top is going to be the hard part, but making every joint “shingled” will help water run off and not in.

 

[Model A Fan]

Vinyl siding is no panacea. It also needs to be installed correctly, by someone who knows WTF they are doing. Otherwise the first hot sunny day, it all buckles, or the first storm lands it all in the neighbor’s yard.

Or the trim gets installed backwards (nestling inside one another coming from the top of the house down instead of nestled inside of each other going up the corner). Vinyl is terrible, looks cheap, breaks/gets holes easily, can't be painted with regular paint easily, etc. I wish I bought a different house due to many issues, but the siding is one of the bigger ones. Replacing it all is expensive and laborsome.

 

[Kaizen]

Am I picturing that correctly, just a wide piece of flashing above the trim?

Kind sounds like it would look terrible...

Planning to re-side my house in the next month or (more then likely) next spring. Seems like all the options have downsides

I installed my hardi with a rain screen wall. i used half ince exterior ply cut into strips and nailed to the zip underneath at the studs. The top has a small vent area above the trim and the bottom i used aluminum screen to keep critters and bugs out. This way the air is constantly flowing and any water escapes or dries. I also kicked out the trim boards and routed a rabbit so my siding fits behind them instead of butting up to them with caulk. I still calked everything but i like the redundency.

 

[Codyboy]

Once a month it seems there is a post about Hardie siding. Am I reading into this wrong? Or is this stuff woefully short of expectations? I 'guess' Hardie is more fire resistant? But as of now I am quite happy w/ builder grade vinyl siding.

My hardie (105 lap style) siding was installed in 2005 around the same time as the OP.
I've never had it soak up water like some mentioned.
And I know for sure the lowest boards bottom edge (thay hangs over the slab) has never been painted except maybe for some overspray. In some spots its maybe 5 or 6 inches from grade.

All the trim boards are the 1x4 (3/4) for the frieze and corners and fascia is 1x6
I opted to not do the garage door jambs in hardie though and used 2x8 treated thats trimmed in 1x4 hardie.
It was caulked well Originally and painted once. Still looks brand new like it did 20 years ago.

 

[CraigStu]

I'ts great to hear it has worked for you Cody.

 

[WillyBoy]

We had the entire house done in Hardie shingle material two years ago. The installers were great. I learned a lot about the official Hardie process. Wear masks or be prepared to hawk up a lot of dust. Every edge needs to be painted to maintain the warranty. One guy called out the measurements and the other did the cutting. The installers should have a plastic squeeze bottle with a foam applicator, filled with color matching paint in their tool belt. Immediately after cutting, the fresh edge was wiped with paint. All edges, top, bottom, and both sides should be painted. All of the seams on the corner boards and around the windows were calked. They went through cases of paint bottles and color matched caulk. Every square insert for mounting lights or receptacles has a drip cap of color matched trim coil over it.