Just curious. More than likely I'm going to have it done but it's $1000 to $1500. The two main problems I see is pulling the meter (as it can explode I've heard) and getting the old box out without screwing up any of the wires. I've also wondered how you go about labeling the wires if you did do this. I respect electricity but at the same time know I can do it myself. My biggest concern is knocking it out in a day so we're not without heat/air etc. I thought of renting a generator so I would have power for any tools/lights etc. Anybody done this before? Any advice? Like I said probably going to hire it out but I'm on the fence.
Has anyone replace their service panel themselves?
- Thread starter jam022316
- Start date
Gooch
Well-known member
I've done a ton, but it's what i do for a living, most i can have done by lunch. If you've got somewhat of an idea you're doing you shouldn't have much of a problem getting the panel heated back up and the important circuits landed.
as far as keeping the wires labled, some number tags and make a legend of what is what.
Is the panel mounted in a finished wall or not?
but be careful pulling the meter as alot of utilities don't allow it and if you get caught can actually get charged with criminal charges.
edit:nevermind
as far as keeping the wires labled, some number tags and make a legend of what is what.
Is the panel mounted in a finished wall or not?
but be careful pulling the meter as alot of utilities don't allow it and if you get caught can actually get charged with criminal charges.
edit:nevermind
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slip knot
Well-known member
If your uncomfortable enough to come on here and ask then you may be better off hiring someone. Not hammering you just making a statement that you don't seem confident you can do it. But offer to help or watch the guy and see what they do, THEN you'll say Dammit I coulda done that and saved $$$$. Been there done that and I'll install my next one now.
Jimmyn
New member
You need to first check local codes, some municipalities require you have this done by a licensed electrician. Most of the time, the power company will pull your meter for you, then put it back when you're done. But, often they won't put it back without an inspection, so, again check before you start.
I'll often mark wires on the outer insulation with a sharpie ( felt tip pen ). I usually just mark them with 'A', 'B', etc., then write down on a pad of paper where each goes. Also, mark each wire in a couple places in case something gets rubbed off. Disconnect the individual wires for given piece of Romex, then remove the nut holding the box connector in the panel (the clamp that holds the wires going into the panel. Carefully pull that wire out, just be careful not to nick the insulation on any sharp edges. 'Rinse and repeat' until all the wires are out.
Next disconnect the 'big' wires from the main breaker and the ground buss(es). Then you should be able to remove the old panel. Again, be careful not to nick the insulation. Note that you might need to run new wires from the meter base if the old ones are too short for the new panel. Also, if the new panel's main breaker is a higher amperage than the old one, you'll likely need to replace the service entrance with one of the proper rating.
Just reverse the process to connect the new panel. I probably left a few things out, but, hopefully others will fill in the blanks if I did.
I'll often mark wires on the outer insulation with a sharpie ( felt tip pen ). I usually just mark them with 'A', 'B', etc., then write down on a pad of paper where each goes. Also, mark each wire in a couple places in case something gets rubbed off. Disconnect the individual wires for given piece of Romex, then remove the nut holding the box connector in the panel (the clamp that holds the wires going into the panel. Carefully pull that wire out, just be careful not to nick the insulation on any sharp edges. 'Rinse and repeat' until all the wires are out.
Next disconnect the 'big' wires from the main breaker and the ground buss(es). Then you should be able to remove the old panel. Again, be careful not to nick the insulation. Note that you might need to run new wires from the meter base if the old ones are too short for the new panel. Also, if the new panel's main breaker is a higher amperage than the old one, you'll likely need to replace the service entrance with one of the proper rating.
Just reverse the process to connect the new panel. I probably left a few things out, but, hopefully others will fill in the blanks if I did.
Man the more and more I read I know I can do this, I'm just am afraid I'd be rushed to have it done in one day where an experienced person wouldn't. I'll have to investigate about the meter thing. If they'll pull it and put it back in without inspection I may do it. That's what's holding me back. The rest I think I could do. It's a finished wall so I may need to tear up some drywall but I don't mind that. I just hate paying for stuff I'm capable of doing.
I just take asking as ways to learn stuff better. I am not comfortable with pulling the meter though! That's for sure. The rest is cake it seems to me just got to take my time. Just wondering what how you label etc.
79firebird
Well-known member
When ever i have helped change panels we just shut off the main braker disconect the main wire one by one and tape them then pull the panel off and put the new one in. No need to pull the meter off. Most people in the trade i know never pull the meter.
Gary S
Well-known member
I refuse to answer this question on the grounds that it might incriminate me.
Gregishome
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2011
- Messages
- 811
How do you not get electrocuted? That sounds extremely dangerous. Or are you f***ing with me?
Gooch
Well-known member
as long as you don't touch anything else when doing it, you'll be ok(need good rubber soled shoes) but I would not recomend it. Me and everyone I work with always pulls the meter, it's stupid not to. The danger in pulling the meter is when it's removed and reinstalled, the main breaker in the panel needs to be OFF.
bczygan
Well-known member
Pulling the meter is no big deal. I've pulled 3 off houses where squatters were occupying houses in our neighborhood. They had new ones in by dark (They stole new ones off empty houses). It helps to have little or no current running through it when you reinstall. Just clip the wire tag. Keep it and hang it back in place. Mine is a radio read meter because I don't want meter readers in the yard so the only time the tag will be checked is if the meter needs changing. Open the face of the box and pull the meter out. Pull a little more on the top first to get some leverage. Once the meter is out you can do whatever is needed to the entrance cable, the existing panel and all the circuits in the house.
I am going to do it for my house. Right now I have a 60 amp fused panel. I will do all the new work inside with the old panel still connected.
First I am going to set a new 200amp panel on a plywood backer board anchored into the concrete block wall. It will be big enough to also have an area for a communications and security panel.
Then I will run some new 20 amp circuits and a feed for the shop sub panel from this new panel. All my new circuits will be at least 20 amp.
Since my existing panel is junk I won't feed it from the new one. Since all the existing circuits are ungrounded I will be replacing them one by one. But for temporary I might either sub-feed the existing panel or a few important circuits while I rewire the house. If an existing circuit won't reach I'll set a temporary JB.
Since the new panel is bigger, I will need to run a new feed from the meter box to the new panel. The service entrance from the overhead drop to the meter box will also need to be changed. I've checked to make sure the drop from the pole is adequate.
To accomplish this I will call and have the service cut at either the pole or the weather head, using the excuse that I am going to be doing some roofing or re-pointing or sealing of the brick and don't want live wires to work around.
Then I will install the new meter box (Mine is really old) and service entrance conductor, meter and entrance cable to the new panel. Then call for a reconnect. No permit, fees or fuss.
I am going to do it for my house. Right now I have a 60 amp fused panel. I will do all the new work inside with the old panel still connected.
First I am going to set a new 200amp panel on a plywood backer board anchored into the concrete block wall. It will be big enough to also have an area for a communications and security panel.
Then I will run some new 20 amp circuits and a feed for the shop sub panel from this new panel. All my new circuits will be at least 20 amp.
Since my existing panel is junk I won't feed it from the new one. Since all the existing circuits are ungrounded I will be replacing them one by one. But for temporary I might either sub-feed the existing panel or a few important circuits while I rewire the house. If an existing circuit won't reach I'll set a temporary JB.
Since the new panel is bigger, I will need to run a new feed from the meter box to the new panel. The service entrance from the overhead drop to the meter box will also need to be changed. I've checked to make sure the drop from the pole is adequate.
To accomplish this I will call and have the service cut at either the pole or the weather head, using the excuse that I am going to be doing some roofing or re-pointing or sealing of the brick and don't want live wires to work around.
Then I will install the new meter box (Mine is really old) and service entrance conductor, meter and entrance cable to the new panel. Then call for a reconnect. No permit, fees or fuss.
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Gregishome
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2011
- Messages
- 811
Just curious. More than likely I'm going to have it done but it's $1000 to $1500. The two main problems I see is pulling the meter (as it can explode I've heard) and getting the old box out without screwing up any of the wires. I've also wondered how you go about labeling the wires if you did do this. I respect electricity but at the same time know I can do it myself. My biggest concern is knocking it out in a day so we're not without heat/air etc. I thought of renting a generator so I would have power for any tools/lights etc. Anybody done this before? Any advice? Like I said probably going to hire it out but I'm on the fence. ........... end of topic
Reply...
I dont understand how come everyone keeps mentioning "turning off the main". I do not see the OP mentioning that his service has a main disconnect ahead of his breaker box. ..
So with that as a given (?) , the only way he can kill power to his breaker box panel box is to pull the meter. ...
Also, I think the forum members need some more info from the OP in order to accurately and safely render their advice...
I am curious as to why the OP wants to change his breaker box, is it because it is so old he cannot get breakers for it ?
Is is because of needing more breaker spaces ?
Is it because it is in the way of a renovation project ?
Is it because the breaker box is overloaded and he thinks just changing the breaker box is the only required solution ?
All of these questions weigh in on the replies needed, in my opinion.
Reply...
I dont understand how come everyone keeps mentioning "turning off the main". I do not see the OP mentioning that his service has a main disconnect ahead of his breaker box. ..
So with that as a given (?) , the only way he can kill power to his breaker box panel box is to pull the meter. ...
Also, I think the forum members need some more info from the OP in order to accurately and safely render their advice...
I am curious as to why the OP wants to change his breaker box, is it because it is so old he cannot get breakers for it ?
Is is because of needing more breaker spaces ?
Is it because it is in the way of a renovation project ?
Is it because the breaker box is overloaded and he thinks just changing the breaker box is the only required solution ?
All of these questions weigh in on the replies needed, in my opinion.
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The breaker box is an old zinsco breaker box. They are known for arching which could cause a fire. I've dealt with the anxiety for 7 years now and decided enough is enough. I to not have a main shut off other than the meter to kill all power coming in.
One of the first areas to investigate is whether your local building inspector will allow you to change the panel yourself; in many areas that can only be done by a licensed electrician. A few years ago I was faced with a similar situation; while remodeling my house I had outgrown the existing panel, and had no room to add circuits for central air conditioning. To save money, I opened the wall around the exisiting panel, roughed in all the new wires to the panel, added a couple of spares, and got an estimate for a new panel from an electrician, When he came out and looked at the exisiting panel, and the open wall surrounding the panel, he realized how quickly he could do the job, and gave me an excellent price. His lead electrician completed the job in less than three hours. In my case, opening the surrounding wall, and making it easy for the electrician saved me a lot of money on the job.
Good luck,
RM209
Good luck,
RM209
79firebird
Well-known member
jam92102 as long as you take one wire off at a time your fine. Just like hooking onto a underground service its allways live well ataching to a new house. Ive done it so meany times thats why i do them live. Some places in the world dont even have a braker panle like cambodia live 220 into the house no fuse's or disconect.
Have i been shocked yes meany times.
Have i been shocked yes meany times.
bczygan
Well-known member
pentavolvo
Well-known member
where in indiana are you. if you are near lafayette, ill give u a hand if you want
sberry
Banned
I didn't read whole thread bt there are several ways to do these jobs, First, not everything has to be the way it was, an upgrade is often an opportunity to set things right, for now or future expansion. Last one I did for someone else I move the panel, whole different location, have set new ones side by side, even have twisted old boxes out of the way to set new, new meter base, underground if I can, etc. I have permit and inspection pulled for upgrade, after inspection I rig up the changeover.
Usually all ready so the poco can come and in one trip disconnect old service and reconnect new, I always have a plan for change over and usually the power is down about 20 minutes, some times not even that, as little as 10. Sometimes heat the new panel with main off to get ahead of the game.
Usually all ready so the poco can come and in one trip disconnect old service and reconnect new, I always have a plan for change over and usually the power is down about 20 minutes, some times not even that, as little as 10. Sometimes heat the new panel with main off to get ahead of the game.
kngelv
Well-known member
To the OP. You are getting a lot of bad advice here. Anyone who changes a service without pulling the meter is a knucklehead. To Greg . . . the "main" that people are talking about is the main breaker on the panel. When changing a panel the individual breakers should be shut off and then the main breaker of the panel. This removes any load. After doing this you can safely take out the meter. The reason meters arc on removal is because people have not done this. There are a lot of problems that can come up when changing a panel. You need to have someone competent help you with this. Whether a journeyman or not is up to you. If you don't have a competent friend bite the bullet and hire a professional. There are code requirements when upgrading a panel that you may not be aware of. God forbid you have an electrical fire and did not fulfill these requirements. The insurance company can now deny your claim.
James
14 year licensed Journeyman and 2 year Master
James
14 year licensed Journeyman and 2 year Master
Aceman
Well-known member
I do this for a living, and I'd recommend you hire it done. Most of the service changes we do take half to all day depending on how involved they are. That's me and a helper. I'm talking new meterbase, mast, and panel. Redoing the grounding by driving rods and bonding the water pipe. Power off around 8-9 am to back on around 2-3pm usually worst case.
Being a diyer, it might take you 2 days depending on what's involved, if you're missing some little part you forgot, you don't have a helper or parts runner to get it for you, etc.
That's why in the interest of getting the power turned back on, the convenience of hiring it out seems to make more sense to me.
On a sidenote, I had a service call once to house where a guy was doing a service change himself. But he said his furnace wasn't working right. Went to look at his panel, he had cut a huge hole all the way through the side of his house!! Instead of mounting the panel in the stud cavity and nippling through the siding into the back of the meter base, he had cut a 14.5 x 30" or so hole, the size of the panel! You could see daylight all around the outside of the panel from inside the house!!
If I remember right, he said the inspector had failed his inspection, so he had to install the meter himself just to give himself temporary power. Total cluster****, I don't know how he ended up fixing it...
Being a diyer, it might take you 2 days depending on what's involved, if you're missing some little part you forgot, you don't have a helper or parts runner to get it for you, etc.
That's why in the interest of getting the power turned back on, the convenience of hiring it out seems to make more sense to me.
On a sidenote, I had a service call once to house where a guy was doing a service change himself. But he said his furnace wasn't working right. Went to look at his panel, he had cut a huge hole all the way through the side of his house!! Instead of mounting the panel in the stud cavity and nippling through the siding into the back of the meter base, he had cut a 14.5 x 30" or so hole, the size of the panel! You could see daylight all around the outside of the panel from inside the house!!
If I remember right, he said the inspector had failed his inspection, so he had to install the meter himself just to give himself temporary power. Total cluster****, I don't know how he ended up fixing it...
Care to elaborate on some common problems? You bring up an interesting question on insurance. When I got my insurance policy no one even came out. If something were to happen how could they prove it wasn't already part of the house when we moved in?
So a new meterbase has to be installed when changing boxes? That's nuts about the guy cutting the hole in the side of the house!!
There really is no big deal to this job and the exploding meter thing is easily handled by shutting down the main breaker below the meter so there is no draw, as stated above. Once that is done and the meter is pulled nothing is hot below the two top meter tabs. Shouldn't take more than an hour or two if you have all the pieces there. You'll need conduit and compression fittings. If you have that many breakers in the box a piece of masking tape or duct tape with the breaker size written on them would work for rewiring. Shouldn't have more than 2 or 3 breakers though. The biggest problem will be the existing wire length, if the installer didn't leave any loops you may have some sort wires depending on what kind of box you replace it with. Easiest fix is to lengthen the wire from the meter to the panel to move the box down.
Stuart in MN
Well-known member
So a new meterbase has to be installed when changing boxes? That's nuts about the guy cutting the hole in the side of the house!!
Not necessarily, but more often than not when a panel is changed it's also getting upgraded from 100 amps to 200 amps.
kenfath
Well-known member
I've changed two service panels. Both were permitted and passed inspection on the first try. First was in Illinois and was almost a new service. House had 'state-of-the-art' for the 1920s two screw fuse 15 and 20 amp circuits, with inside meter and a two wire connection between house and pole. Installed 200AMP new service. Met with POCO in advance of doing anything. They explained where the wanted the new meter, mast and anchor located. They provided a new meter and provided wire for a jumper from the old to the new. Installation was straight forward with panel located in the basement behind the meter. Energized the new panel using the jumper wires connected to the existing wires. House had heavy metal conduit so it was rather simple (now that its done) to run EMT and connect with the existing conduit. Building inspector grabbed the EMT right above the new panel and pulled on them -- they were tight; then noted the ground was attached to the water pipe, followed the pipe and and noted the water meter jumper was installed. BI notified POCO and they were out the next day removing their old wire and connecting the new service, and reclaiming the old inside meter. Last task was to remove outside mast and patch hole in brick wall.
The more recent panel change was in Southern CA involved a 1976 panel that I'd outgrown and was having arcing problems, and was replaced with a 200AMP Square D Homeline panel. In this locale the meter and breakers are all in one panel and are located outside. In my case the panel was on the garage wall and the inside walls were open at that time. Contacted SCE (the POCO) to have the meter lock removed. Wasn't sure the customer service lady understood the request, but the next day a man that scheduled house visits called and all worked out well and lock was removed later that day. This gave me a chance to plan the installation by seeing what was inside the meter side of the panel. The service wire was plenty long which was a relief and I was able to measure and figure out the conduit offset adapter I'd need to connect the existing bottom entry conduit to the new panel.
On installation day the service wires were removed from the meter socket with an insulator placed over each wire as soon as it was disconnected. I wore electric gloves with a leather outer glove while removing and reconnecting the wires. The branch circuit wires were removed next. As mentioned elsewhere you really want to label the wires before disconnecting. Next used a generator powered reciprocating saw to cut the stucco and the nails that held the panel to the studs. With the old panel removed the stucco was saw cut to accommodate the taller new panel. New panel was placed and secured to the studs. The service wires were reconnected with dielectric paste used. The meter side panel cover was installed AND the advertising disk replaced in the meter opening. WORD OF CAUTION! My old 'mentor' told the story when he had not closed the panel's meter hole and was feeding wire into the panel, the wire looped itself and contacted the hot meter lug thus energizing the wire.
Rewiring the branch circuits was mostly uneventful. Ran a metal jacketed (MC?) bond wire to the cold and hot water pipes and the gas line. Hardest part was driving the ground rod in very rocky soil, cheated and drilled a ~20" hole to start it; and patching the stucco around the new panel. Lowe's salesman suggested a quart of a specific patching compound and it worked really neat. Building inspector checked for the breakers being identified and for the presence of ground and bond wires.
As a final note, the BI advises POCO job has been inspected. POCO guy shows up. For whatever reason this guy and I don't hit it off. He tells me he's Number One on the seniority roster and knows all there is to know about electricity. Of course I didn't help matters by asking if he personally had known G Westinghouse of T Edison. The POCO policy is to install a new meter when new panels are installed. So he changes meters and reinstalls the lock -- only problem was the lock was on cockeyed and not really locking anything. Didn't have the heart to tell No. 1 it was on wrong.
kngelv and Aceman in Posts 21 & 22 give some really good advice and things to think about. One of the greatest concerns >>>BESIDES THE RISK OF ELECTROCUTION<<< is getting the power restored in a reasonable amount of time. This is not a task for amateurs (I rank myself as an advanced amateur). Would I do it again? Probably not! Would I suggest you do it? ________ (Left blank intentionally!)
The more recent panel change was in Southern CA involved a 1976 panel that I'd outgrown and was having arcing problems, and was replaced with a 200AMP Square D Homeline panel. In this locale the meter and breakers are all in one panel and are located outside. In my case the panel was on the garage wall and the inside walls were open at that time. Contacted SCE (the POCO) to have the meter lock removed. Wasn't sure the customer service lady understood the request, but the next day a man that scheduled house visits called and all worked out well and lock was removed later that day. This gave me a chance to plan the installation by seeing what was inside the meter side of the panel. The service wire was plenty long which was a relief and I was able to measure and figure out the conduit offset adapter I'd need to connect the existing bottom entry conduit to the new panel.
On installation day the service wires were removed from the meter socket with an insulator placed over each wire as soon as it was disconnected. I wore electric gloves with a leather outer glove while removing and reconnecting the wires. The branch circuit wires were removed next. As mentioned elsewhere you really want to label the wires before disconnecting. Next used a generator powered reciprocating saw to cut the stucco and the nails that held the panel to the studs. With the old panel removed the stucco was saw cut to accommodate the taller new panel. New panel was placed and secured to the studs. The service wires were reconnected with dielectric paste used. The meter side panel cover was installed AND the advertising disk replaced in the meter opening. WORD OF CAUTION! My old 'mentor' told the story when he had not closed the panel's meter hole and was feeding wire into the panel, the wire looped itself and contacted the hot meter lug thus energizing the wire.
Rewiring the branch circuits was mostly uneventful. Ran a metal jacketed (MC?) bond wire to the cold and hot water pipes and the gas line. Hardest part was driving the ground rod in very rocky soil, cheated and drilled a ~20" hole to start it; and patching the stucco around the new panel. Lowe's salesman suggested a quart of a specific patching compound and it worked really neat. Building inspector checked for the breakers being identified and for the presence of ground and bond wires.
As a final note, the BI advises POCO job has been inspected. POCO guy shows up. For whatever reason this guy and I don't hit it off. He tells me he's Number One on the seniority roster and knows all there is to know about electricity. Of course I didn't help matters by asking if he personally had known G Westinghouse of T Edison. The POCO policy is to install a new meter when new panels are installed. So he changes meters and reinstalls the lock -- only problem was the lock was on cockeyed and not really locking anything. Didn't have the heart to tell No. 1 it was on wrong.
kngelv and Aceman in Posts 21 & 22 give some really good advice and things to think about. One of the greatest concerns >>>BESIDES THE RISK OF ELECTROCUTION<<< is getting the power restored in a reasonable amount of time. This is not a task for amateurs (I rank myself as an advanced amateur). Would I do it again? Probably not! Would I suggest you do it? ________ (Left blank intentionally!)
kngelv
Well-known member
Here is a recent example; Breakers kept tripping and would not reset on the left side of a 100 amp house panel. I could see daylight where the service cable entered the house. I opened the panel and there was water dripping inside. Turns out water had been running down the service cable through the wall and into the panel. There was no caulk around the cable. The panel was too corroded to save. Replaced the cable, panel and most of the breakers. The ground lug in the meter can had oxidized so much that I could not get the screw out. I ended up replacing the meter can which necessitated disconnecting live power at the weather head. What would the average guy do in this situation? Random stuff like this happens a good 20% of the time.
James
Teken
Well-known member
I am one of the cheapest ******* you will ever meet with respect to DIY. Having said this: I respect power / electricity, and in this case I would simply seek out a friend who is a certified electrician or hire one to complete this task.
Your life, and the safety of your family weigh in on this decision. If something breaks, or is delayed in terms of parts required its on the guy you hired.
If things break, catch fire, or cause damages to the home. This is all born on you, and God forbid we ever have to read about it here.
Talk with the wife and consider hiring it out as Aceman has recommended.
Teken . . .
Your life, and the safety of your family weigh in on this decision. If something breaks, or is delayed in terms of parts required its on the guy you hired.
If things break, catch fire, or cause damages to the home. This is all born on you, and God forbid we ever have to read about it here.
Talk with the wife and consider hiring it out as Aceman has recommended.
Teken . . .
Gregishome
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2011
- Messages
- 811
Post # 2 ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Man, if I ever get lost in the woods I want the rescue team to bring the electrical forum guys to hunt for me. They just wont give up on a man !
torqueman2002
Well-known member
I upgraded from 100 to 200 amp service with the help of a builder friend. We were able to do it in a day.
It did involve a new service drop from the pole, utility company did this for free, and they provided a new meter-base.
The panel is located about 12" to the right of the old panel requiring a separate box with a cover where exiting circuits that could not be routed directly to the new panel were 'extended' with wire nuts and a 'jumper' running to the new panel.
The new meter box has upgraded Aluminum cable running in and out to the service panel. We used Aluminum Wire Anti-Oxidant at all AL connections.
Inspected and passed by town - it is just good practice and insurance will look for this if any related claim is filed.
It's not difficult, but you need to pay attention to detail. Even though I have made many home runs for additional circuits for window A/C, PCs, work shop, ....; for a new service and meter I wanted the guidance of an experienced builder.
One tip I'll pass on from my father who wired homes after WWII - when working on 220V circuits keep one hand in your pocket. That way, if there is an accident the path to ground will be from the active hand to your feet to ground and not across your chest from one hand to the other.
It did involve a new service drop from the pole, utility company did this for free, and they provided a new meter-base.
The panel is located about 12" to the right of the old panel requiring a separate box with a cover where exiting circuits that could not be routed directly to the new panel were 'extended' with wire nuts and a 'jumper' running to the new panel.
The new meter box has upgraded Aluminum cable running in and out to the service panel. We used Aluminum Wire Anti-Oxidant at all AL connections.
Inspected and passed by town - it is just good practice and insurance will look for this if any related claim is filed.
It's not difficult, but you need to pay attention to detail. Even though I have made many home runs for additional circuits for window A/C, PCs, work shop, ....; for a new service and meter I wanted the guidance of an experienced builder.
One tip I'll pass on from my father who wired homes after WWII - when working on 220V circuits keep one hand in your pocket. That way, if there is an accident the path to ground will be from the active hand to your feet to ground and not across your chest from one hand to the other.
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I am not in full support of this being a DIYers project for several reasons. Aceman and others have given the OP a fair warning of the details that can go awry when taking on such a project. Removing an energized meter from its base present several risk that need to be considered. Beyond disconnecting the main to relieve load on the service meter to prevent arc.
Please be advised the amount of fault current available at the meter in most cases will be between 10 and 30 thousand amps. Should one have a phase to phase or phase to ground fault an arc flash would develop. This flash/explosion would grow in magnitude until the fault is burned clear or the primary overcurrent protective device opens. This primary fuse could be a great distance from your location. This flash has the ability to melt metals, eyewear, clothing, hair etc. and to cause 3rd degree burns to ones face and body,
When applying pressure to remove the meter, the base may not be mounted securely and come loose from the structure. I have personally seen this. The Insulators holding the lugs and meter contacts in place can be fractured from over torque and come free when pulling on the meter. One must be prepared should any of the above mishaps take place.
Please be advised the amount of fault current available at the meter in most cases will be between 10 and 30 thousand amps. Should one have a phase to phase or phase to ground fault an arc flash would develop. This flash/explosion would grow in magnitude until the fault is burned clear or the primary overcurrent protective device opens. This primary fuse could be a great distance from your location. This flash has the ability to melt metals, eyewear, clothing, hair etc. and to cause 3rd degree burns to ones face and body,
When applying pressure to remove the meter, the base may not be mounted securely and come loose from the structure. I have personally seen this. The Insulators holding the lugs and meter contacts in place can be fractured from over torque and come free when pulling on the meter. One must be prepared should any of the above mishaps take place.
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Charles (in GA)
Well-known member
I replaced the 60 amp fuse panel in my parents 1956 house after Dad passed away (to make the house sellable). Since it wasn't occupied I was not in any hurry. Next door neighbor let me run an extension cord when I was there working, to have light, drill, etc.
I installed a new weatherhead, SE cable, meter socket and disconnect, SE to main panel, and new 30 space GE 200 amp panel. Ran a lot of other new wires also, mostly from the panel to the first junction in the circuits, as the wires would not reach in the new panel.
Our transformer supplied four houses, so the POCO didn't want to pull the switch and screw up everyone's programmed cable boxes, clocks, etc, so he maneuvered the bucket close to the weatherhead and cut the wires hot and taped them off and left them hanging. Same guy reconnected them hot a couple of months later to my new wires hanging out of my weather head.
Charles
I installed a new weatherhead, SE cable, meter socket and disconnect, SE to main panel, and new 30 space GE 200 amp panel. Ran a lot of other new wires also, mostly from the panel to the first junction in the circuits, as the wires would not reach in the new panel.
Our transformer supplied four houses, so the POCO didn't want to pull the switch and screw up everyone's programmed cable boxes, clocks, etc, so he maneuvered the bucket close to the weatherhead and cut the wires hot and taped them off and left them hanging. Same guy reconnected them hot a couple of months later to my new wires hanging out of my weather head.
Charles
ishiboo
Well-known member
Definitely.
Installing a new panel is a very reasonable DIY job if you have common sense, especially if you get specifics ahead of time in terms of code, and use appropriate techniques. It won't really pass without it anyway
Whatever you do, NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER work on a panel replacement or the meter can without having the service disconnected by the PoCo ahead of time. It is FREE and FAST for them to do. As Charles said, they just come out, disconnect the taps and leave it hanging. I still go in with my voltage detector and make sure, after verifying I can see the wires disconnected.
Falcon67
Well-known member
When I upgraded the service entrance at the old house, I just called AEP and had an engineer come have a look at the current setup. That was required first so they could issue a work order to have a service truck come and pull the service back. They cut it hot and tied it back. I did my thing - new weather head, hole in eve, roof jack, new meter base, new feed into the main panel, re-grounded all (three) panels on the house, etc. in 3 hours. Serviceman came back, looked it over, checked the grounding, asked about the lug torque on the meter base, hooked up the overhead, installed the meter for me and I lit it all up again. Good to go. No inspections or permit required around here. Next city over - no way in hell they'd let me touch it.
I replaced three Federal Pacific panels on that house with one back in 1997 before deregulation. When I called West Texas utilities about pulling the meter, they said - and I quote - "Sure, just cut the seal and pull it out and we'll make a note to tag it again on the next read. Be careful."
I replaced three Federal Pacific panels on that house with one back in 1997 before deregulation. When I called West Texas utilities about pulling the meter, they said - and I quote - "Sure, just cut the seal and pull it out and we'll make a note to tag it again on the next read. Be careful."
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Gregishome
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2011
- Messages
- 811
Speaking of service change outs, brings back some fond memories...
I started out in business re-wiring old houses and re-wired a LOT of old knob and tube wired homes and gas lit chandeliers were plentiful. ...
Whenever I changed out services, I would notify the POCO of a new service change so they would permit the job and would know someone would be cutting their meter seal tag( they frown on their meter seals being broken without their permission as it indicated power theft to them)...
First thing I would do would be kill all branch overcurrent devices ( fuses or breakers) in the panel /fusebox, then I would pull the mains which may have been cartridge fuses or breaker(no load arcing on it then) then go pull the meter and lay it somewhere safe. ...
Then I would get my wood extension ladder against the roof, rubber boots /rubber gloves and cut the hot POCO service drop connections to the old weatherhead conductors with large handled cable cutters...
For electrical power that day, so that I could use my power tools (no portables drills back then and I would run the homeowners refrigerator sometimes ) I would take my 12/3 SO cord that I had made up, that had a 20 amp type "S" glass fuse in it that was screwed in to a weatherprrof rubber light socket...
On the end of the SO power cord I had a 4x4 box with two ganged duplex receptacles on it for the tools/refrigerator,essential home devices, to plug in to....
I would then Kearney bolt my power cord on to the HOT service drop conductors and tape the connections up good with rubber/vinyl tape. Then, I would I remove the old service components/breaker box...
I would install the new service/breaker box, grounding systems, plug the old meter in to the new meter base, Kearney bolt the new service drop conductors to the POCO conductors, turn the main on in the new panel box, test everything out and go home tired as hell for the day. ..
The following morning I would call the electrical inspector and he would go out and inspect/sticker my work and call the POCO to rehook my service drop connections...
To the OP and all other readers of this post, the above is NOT something that a unlicensed DIYER' should EVER attempt to do. ..
I started out in business re-wiring old houses and re-wired a LOT of old knob and tube wired homes and gas lit chandeliers were plentiful. ...
Whenever I changed out services, I would notify the POCO of a new service change so they would permit the job and would know someone would be cutting their meter seal tag( they frown on their meter seals being broken without their permission as it indicated power theft to them)...
First thing I would do would be kill all branch overcurrent devices ( fuses or breakers) in the panel /fusebox, then I would pull the mains which may have been cartridge fuses or breaker(no load arcing on it then) then go pull the meter and lay it somewhere safe. ...
Then I would get my wood extension ladder against the roof, rubber boots /rubber gloves and cut the hot POCO service drop connections to the old weatherhead conductors with large handled cable cutters...
For electrical power that day, so that I could use my power tools (no portables drills back then and I would run the homeowners refrigerator sometimes ) I would take my 12/3 SO cord that I had made up, that had a 20 amp type "S" glass fuse in it that was screwed in to a weatherprrof rubber light socket...
On the end of the SO power cord I had a 4x4 box with two ganged duplex receptacles on it for the tools/refrigerator,essential home devices, to plug in to....
I would then Kearney bolt my power cord on to the HOT service drop conductors and tape the connections up good with rubber/vinyl tape. Then, I would I remove the old service components/breaker box...
I would install the new service/breaker box, grounding systems, plug the old meter in to the new meter base, Kearney bolt the new service drop conductors to the POCO conductors, turn the main on in the new panel box, test everything out and go home tired as hell for the day. ..
The following morning I would call the electrical inspector and he would go out and inspect/sticker my work and call the POCO to rehook my service drop connections...
To the OP and all other readers of this post, the above is NOT something that a unlicensed DIYER' should EVER attempt to do. ..
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rabidsquirrel
Well-known member
When we do services/cables we have an extension cord made up with alligator clips on the end. Cut the service cable loose, attach the clips and there's power for the radio (most important), light, and power tools.
Tom in Seattle
Well-known member
This is very interesting reading since I will be doing my own SE panel replacement later this spring. I'm expecting it to take a couple of days since I'm an engineer with OCD I'm planning to have a backup generator onsite to power critical loads.
The majority of the discussion here seems to be about meters that use an overhead feed. What about meters like mine that have an underground feed? How do those get disconnected? The reason I ask is I may want to replace the meter socket box as it's 28 years old.
Also, the meter box is fed with 2" PVC that apparently was never glued into the fitting in the box as there is now about a 1" gap at that interface, which could allow rain, etc. down in the conduit. In order to preclude that happening again I bought an expansion piece that will account for the thermal growth and shrinkage. In order to install that piece however, the meter box needs to be pulled, which is why I thought it might be prudent to change it.
Any recommendations on meter boxes, or will the POCO supply one? The current one is made by Milbank. Guess I'll contact them and ask.
How is the meter box usually wired for an underground feed? I want to replace the 4/0 AL cable with 2/0 copper and need to know how much to purchase. Does the meter feed from the POCO come in from the bottom and then go up and loop around on each side to the top terminals? My meter has a tag on it that I don't want to cut or I'd look inside.
Thanks allot.
I'm planning to have a backup generator onsite to power critical loads.The majority of the discussion here seems to be about meters that use an overhead feed. What about meters like mine that have an underground feed? How do those get disconnected? The reason I ask is I may want to replace the meter socket box as it's 28 years old.
Also, the meter box is fed with 2" PVC that apparently was never glued into the fitting in the box as there is now about a 1" gap at that interface, which could allow rain, etc. down in the conduit. In order to preclude that happening again I bought an expansion piece that will account for the thermal growth and shrinkage. In order to install that piece however, the meter box needs to be pulled, which is why I thought it might be prudent to change it.
Any recommendations on meter boxes, or will the POCO supply one? The current one is made by Milbank. Guess I'll contact them and ask.
How is the meter box usually wired for an underground feed? I want to replace the 4/0 AL cable with 2/0 copper and need to know how much to purchase. Does the meter feed from the POCO come in from the bottom and then go up and loop around on each side to the top terminals? My meter has a tag on it that I don't want to cut or I'd look inside.
Thanks allot.
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ddawg16
Well-known member
Pretty much what I did 11 years ago...had an old 6a service...installed a new load center and meter on the side of the house. We were living in it so I had to get all of my wiring in place first while leaving the old wiring live.
Inspector came out...inspected everything....signed it off...called the Poco...they came out and moved it....then all I had to do was tie my new ckts into the old ones.
I'm in the middle of a 2-story addition right now....because of the addition...my existing wires are running through what is going to be the master bedroom....so I'm installing a new load center at the back of the house....this time around I'm going to be without power for a week or two...once I have everything ready....have poco come out and remove the old service....then I can build the walls and put on the roof...THEN I can install the weatherhead and wiring....tie new ckts to old ckts....call inspector...once signed off...poco comes out and reconnects power.
I never have to touch my meter....they do it all....