Have you experienced "tool discrimination"?

[pdxgearhead]

I'm not a professional mechanic, but I'd like to chime in on the comments that having the Snap-On image assures customers of quality, good mechanics, etc...
90% of the people in this world have no clue what Snap-On, Mac, Matco, or Harbor Freight is. I think what impresses me and probably many other customers about a repair shop is:
1) That it is organized and squeeky clean
2) Has a comfy waiting room with a t.v., vending machines, expresso maker, and wireless internet.

 

[Danglerb]

Mechanics wearing uniforms, no tattoo's, nice short haircuts, just like at Disneyland. Service writers with a tie, spotless, yada yada, thats the local MB Stealership.

Big mistake IMHO to let the customer even see a mechanic, let them think its all magic done by car surgeons.

 

[porphyre]

he told me that he couldn't afford a new truck so he damn sure wasn't going to have a mechanic working for him that could. [snip] He probably wouldn't have liked my Snap-on boxes, either.

This is a very interesting point!

There's a huge range of employers... small independents, chain mechanic shops, dealerships, specialty speed shops, etc.

If you ARE a Snap-On guy, do you REVERSE discriminate? If you're looking for work and walk into a shop intending to apply, but see one or two Mac or Cornwell boxes, a bunch of Craftsman and no-name boxes... do you walk out b/c the guys working there aren't paid well enough to afford Snap-On?

 

[diesel research]

I'm not a professional mechanic, but I'd like to chime in on the comments that having the Snap-On image assures customers of quality, good mechanics, etc...
90% of the people in this world have no clue what Snap-On, Mac, Matco, or Harbor Freight is. I think what impresses me and probably many other customers about a repair shop is:
1) That it is organized and squeeky clean
2) Has a comfy waiting room with a t.v., vending machines, expresso maker, and wireless internet.

I am actually impressed at how many DO know what it is. Well, they know 2 brands (like most people on this site) Craftsman or Snap On.

A lot of people also think satin/black industrial tools are cheap offshore pieces.

I do recall a truck driver picking up my mini bolt cutters and marveling at them. He asks "what are these? snap on? mac?" I replied "harbor freight" He instantly dropped them, as if he were burnt.

___________________________

As far as giving the customer the "mushroom treatment" (keeping them in the dark and feeding them a line of $#!T) that does not work. The new movement is towards "transparency". Due to all of those undercover scam busters and the shady guys perpetrating said scams. Shops are trying to distance them self from that image, and customers are demanding to see the action.

Now you have things like instant webcam access, or clear glass "fish bowl" viewing areas.

 

[NJHandyGuy]

Yes and i am so glad i no longer work there

 

[4x4gearhead]

I think it is known that some but not all shops judge a mechanic by the tools/box he owns. Ive been asked when handing in an app what kind of toolboxes I owned and what kind of tools and how much money invested. Im not saying the fact that I drop some coin on tools makes me a better mechanic but it shows that I take pride in what I do, and that I plan on doing it for some time.

 

[mjozefow]

In my experience, the people who only focus on the cost of the tool rather than the cost/benefit ratio are the ones to watch out for.

When I evaluate someone working on a job, I do consider the type of tools he owns and the condition they are in. I have yet to meet a meticulous tradesman that beats on his tools.

 

[NJHandyGuy]

I gotta be onest it is VERY hard to judge that book by it's cover one of the best mechanic's i've ever seen had nothing more than a handbox full of cman. and was FAST

one of the worst parts changers had 82k in snap on debt

 

[diesel research]

Is it safe to say if you only own craftsman/harbor freight you are more tool wise, faster, and produce higher quality work?

I am starting to see enough examples of "I knew a guy with cman/hf tools that was better than ___" to wonder if a conclusion can be drawn? Or are the statements irrelevant?

 

[Moose-LandTran]

So what is the story on that?

When i was 18 i bought a car, for which I had no licence and no insurance. One night i took it home a little too fast in the wet and stacked it into the back of a parked car, totally destroying both. It cost me a small fortune to get myself out of that mess. I had to go to court and got 8 points on my provisional licence. (Which was lucky, i could've easily got a 3 year driving ban.)

Almost 4 years later having hardly driven since, i'm set to get my licence mid-November.

Yep, another of ol' Moose' spectacular ****-ups.

 

[Davo3]

Incidental observations are not large enough sample sizes to make valid generalizations (if that's possible at all). Even if they were; there's no proof of cause.

If better mechanics tend to have tools of brand X, did they select them because they're better mechanics, or are they better mechanics because they wound up (after perhaps years of trial and error) selecting that brand... or does that brand just have better market penetration or finance options?

 

[carbon]

Why would a graphic artist employee need, even for hosting, $1000/month Internet service?

A single graphic artist wouldn't need everything I listed, but a single mechanic doesn't need nice tools, a nice place to put them, a car lift, or even shady tree. He can lay on the ground in the hot sun under a car surrounded by a pile of worse-than-harbor-freight-tools-that-he-bought-at-a-dollar-store-in-New-Town-North-Dakota and get'r done. Arggggghhh!

If you work at a crappy place that doesn't value a visually creative fellow (ie. a bank), then hell yeah, you might not have a budget or IT staff, or, errr, maybe no co-workers either.

I am talking about larger agencies, places you actually want to work at, that provide good benefits for your family and have cool accounts to work on (maybe like Porsche in the mech tech world?). Where you do web, print and video. Places like I worked at at one point (JWT.com) had 50-150 people (local branch), depending on the economy. JWT has done the Marines tv spots for around 80 years. They have tens of thousands of employees worldwide. Hell, check 'em out. Certainly not the coolest place on Earth, but you get the idea.

As far as internet connections, you gots to have bandwidth, baby, for moving a 40gb print file or 300gb flash video from your desktop to the server in new jersey for backup, and that's just you, one of thousands in North America doing that. And you do that dozens of times a day! The amount of server space, just for everyone's clogged corporate email account, was astounding. Multi-day backups of everything, back-ups for years of email to meet financial rules, etc etc etc.

You need fast, hi-rez scanners that don't break down, very good color printers for proofing, multiple super-huge-nice monitors so you can shove all Photoshops & Flash palettes off to a second monitor so you can actually see what you're doing.

Anyway, the point I'm making is that as far as mech techs go, Germany is to the USA as UPS is to Fedex. Germany (heavily unionized, employer provides tools) vs USA (not unionized much, employee provides tools), and UPS (unionized, company provides benefits and truck) vs FedEx (drivers aren't employees, they are independent contractors with no benefits, and must buy their own truck!). Suckers, they.

 

[ngk22r]

I can't say I have experienced tool discrimination persay, but I can say I think there is discrimination inside my tool box. My socket and ratchet drawer is pretty nicely organized when I close the drawer but once I reopen it it looks like a fight broke out in there. Still cannot figure out which tools started the fight it was the snap-on, Matco, Mac, or craftsman. They just don't get along....



Bottom line it's the skill of the person using the tools that matter, not the brand. An inexperienced person using the top of the line tools is more likely to damage the tools and parts working on then a highly experienced tech using harbor freight tools.

 

[dankicksass]

Is it safe to say if you only own craftsman/harbor freight you are more tool wise, faster, and produce higher quality work?

I am starting to see enough examples of "I knew a guy with cman/hf tools that was better than ___" to wonder if a conclusion can be drawn? Or are the statements irrelevant?

I don't think that's the norm at all, but I do know a couple old techs who lost their asses in divorce and hustle all day long doing work with Craftsman raised panel tools and next to nothing else. The guys who use cheap tools do it for a reason.

 

[AlchemyMetalworks]

I don't think that's the norm at all, but I do know a couple old techs who lost their asses in divorce and hustle all day long doing work with Craftsman raised panel tools and next to nothing else. The guys who use cheap tools do it for a reason.

THIS ^^^^

I used alot of HF, Husky, Duralast, Stanley & Northern tools because I have to stretch my dollar.

I get that some people say they are investing in their trade with the high-dollar roller chests and truck tools. What you don't get is that you are investing more of YOUR money into tools that make other people more money than those tools are making you.

Support your truck dealer if you want, that's cool. Support your dealership if you want to, that's cool too. But support yourself first.

Could you use a nicer couch? A bigger garage? A newer ride? Some new ******* on the GF? It really doesn't matter what your priorities are...it's YOUR paycheck, you earned it.

If someone is going to discriminate against you based on their value system, that is their bad for moving you into their head rent-free. Don't get wrapped up in the mind-**** headgames, just do your thang and enjoy your life.

I've seen guys who worked like dogs and died from heart attacks, when they most likely wanted nothing more than a nice long vacation on a beach somewhere. If your tools mean more to you than spending your hard earned money elsewhere, so be it.

Just don't try to inflict your value system & priorities on other people.

 

[5lima30]

I agree whole heartedly! I am not a tech but like to have decent tools at a reasonable price. I have a mix of C/Man, SK, Proto, Diamond, Bonney, Channel Lock, Gearwrench, and a few S/O. I like them all. Where I differ is probably more than half my collection came from garage sales and flea markets. I also live in rural area without a lot of the big retailers. I don't have any of the Auto Zone hand tools but the ones I have handled look pretty decent for the money.

 

[greasemonkey44]

only after i broke my cheapy and had to borrow a good one
or had to borrow because the head of the socket was too big or the ratchet wrenches head was too big
i got a good razzing for those. But i wont go into hock for tools. i would have looked for a different dealership or a better indy shop. if they cant think outside the box for brands they cant think outside the box for life.....not my kinda people

 

[richfinn]

As long as a workshop is clean and well organised and the mechanic knows his onions, Tool brands never really matter as long as its fairly decent quality. I know some guys like all matching sets and chrome and lots of space. I get a buzz out of the diagnosis and repair and using my (limited) skills ,more than having the best tools. I dont judge others that have fancy boxes and loads of chrome though. On GJ I must admit I like to see well organised home made stuff better than $$$$$ of brand new Truck tools in a big tool box.

I hate to see techs work of the floor when you can make or buy a cart for next to nothing.

 

[IngyHere]

I can see that to some point.

Doesn't HF mark "Meets ANSI standards" on the packaging of their drive tools?

Ever had a box-end wrench break on you? Wrenches from India are the worst, and China are second. They cheap out on the metallurgy or just can't get it right or something. Everyone knows it whether they admit it or not.

I can see two big problems with imported wrenches: (1) Some will break, and when they break they will hurt you. (2) They round off bolts. The wrenches round off bolts because the tools are loosey-goosey on sizing for some reason -- whether the workers don't care or lack capacity for precision. Rounded-off bolts makes it harder for others to come in behind you to perform more work.

Anyway, these are just the problems with the wrenches. I can give a list for every single class of imported garbage.

Note that I'm not saying "cheap" tools. One can buy used domestic tools or discontinued high-quality Japanese tools for low prices on Ebay. You don't have to buy Snap-On to have good tools. Also, nowadays, on the other hand, buying a Milwaukee power tool doesn't guarantee quality. Many of the Chinese imports ripped off the tooling from the big high-quality names and just sell the identical product. So in that case, I recommend buying HF for a tenth the cost since they work the same, anyway, if you must buy new.

Hand tools are different, though. When someone doesn't recognize the difference between good and bad tools and how they impact their work, it kind of speaks about their abilities in general.

 

[slipjointed]

Ever had a box-end wrench break on you? Wrenches from India are the worst, and China are second. They cheap out on the metallurgy or just can't get it right or something. Everyone knows it whether they admit it or not.

I can see two big problems with imported wrenches: (1) Some will break, and when they break they will hurt you. (2) They round off bolts. The wrenches round off bolts because the tools are loosey-goosey on sizing for some reason -- whether the workers don't care or lack capacity for precision. Rounded-off bolts makes it harder for others to come in behind you to perform more work.

Anyway, these are just the problems with the wrenches. I can give a list for every single class of imported garbage.

Note that I'm not saying "cheap" tools. One can buy used domestic tools or discontinued high-quality Japanese tools for low prices on Ebay. You don't have to buy Snap-On to have good tools. Also, nowadays, on the other hand, buying a Milwaukee power tool doesn't guarantee quality. Many of the Chinese imports ripped off the tooling from the big high-quality names and just sell the identical product. So in that case, I recommend buying HF for a tenth the cost since they work the same, anyway, if you must buy new.

Hand tools are different, though. When someone doesn't recognize the difference between good and bad tools and how they impact their work, it kind of speaks about their abilities in general.

I think you missed the point of my comment. It had nothing to do with the inherent quality (or lack thereof) of Harbor Freight.

If there is a worry about insurance/liability, and the tools are marked as meeting industry standard, then even if they are made out of cardboard, the liability still transfers to the manufacturer if the tools fail.

 

[bobemmerich]

My answer to the ultimate question is...NO, I personally have not. When I started as a wrench, all I had were Craftsman. I got some ribbing from friends about it, but they performed well. I did get on the S/O bandwagon and went into hock, but I was young and didn't know better. Now all that is behind me and I've actually aquired a taste for Allen brand tools. Made in U.S.A. and plenty tough. 90% of my wrenches/sockets are Allen. I no longer wrench on a daily basis, so now I look for the deals. I buy what budget allows when needed. I will NOT however; borrow tools-I will buy it and then at least I'd have it.

I have heard of this happening to others, though. I think in a small shop, the owner figures if a person is willing to "invest" $$$$ in thier tools, they must be plenty serious about the work that they do.

On another note, my brother in law ( a stone mason by trade) will NOT buy anything other than DeWalt. He says anything else is ****. I dunno, my Ryobi and Skil do the same job and my batteries are cheaper to boot!
Sorry for the long post....

 

[earlthegoat2]

WHAT I DONT GET is why there is SOOOOO much emphasis put on the tool box. It holds the tools. It does not grip and turn a fastener. It does not test compression or check continuity. It is the MOST irrelevant thing to even consider when judging OR BUYING tools. Get a **** box and fill it with Snap On until you can afford that KRL and not go into debt. Why would any shop supervisor care about the box? The tools at least touch the car (or whatever) being worked on. If the tool box touches it you are most likely in trouble.

 

[Az Scooter]

I have a friend that is a mechanic, that has always used a craftsmen box. Worse, it is what ever cheap box he can find. He fills it with Snap On, and other high quality tools.
One time, he was working at a shop that was broken into over night. The thieves took every single box, complete, except his.
The boss accused him of stealing all the boxes because his was the only one that was not touched. He looked at the boss, and said, "If you were a thief with all these snap on boxes around, would you mess with my pile of trash?"

 

[Kev442]

Gotta admit, I walked past a guy cutting molding/millwork today outside. Had a nice Ridgid Miter setup with a long aluminum cut table. Then I got to the "table saw". A $99 ProTech with the guaranteed wobble built in.
My opinion of the level of professionalism he has plummeted like a rock. How good can your molding work look when the arbor on the saw can move 1/8"?

 

[justanengineer]

My "tool discrimination" has been a bit different than what youre describing. Mine has involved not being a hack, having the proper tools, and using them properly. I always love it when someone calls me a fool for using a puller instead of a hammer or pry bars instead of a screwdriver.

 

[Straightgrain]

This thread reminds me of some of the discussions that would come up on a chat site for pipe smokers that I used to frequent. High end pipes like Dunhill, Knudsen, Balleby, etc, have a respectability that low end pipes don't have. Unfortunately, some will judge you by the pipe that you smoke or by the tools that you use.

 

[Skin]

in the trades i really think it would be incredibly rare to find a customer who cared what you used. Things that do matter

presentation of your business and your work quality.
positive references

about it.

hell most people dont even see the inside of the garage bay and havent for a long time. Similarly i doubt someone hiring a carpenter, plumber, or electrician is going to ask to rifle through their truck and bag to inspect their tools prior to acceptance.

If employers are indeed discriminating they're just fabricating another reason to not higher someone.

 

[Walterchang]

One of coworkers is a Snap On snob, he always give me a raft of **** about my tools. My favorite little ratchet is a cheapy stubby flex head 3/8's. I have used it for over 4 years almost daily with it never failing. I did punk him with some Knipex stuff I have, he never heard of them. I did get him to appreciate Proto though.

 

[bobemmerich]

I have to somewhat agree about breaking, chipping, and flaking tools. That being said, ANY brand tool can break-Especially if it's being misused. I have yet to have a tool break on me that I was using for its intended purpose.
As far as a box is concerned, I have to agree with Earlthegoat2- The box ONLY holds the tools! It's storage-Period! My current set up is 2 26" Cman 5 drawer lower units bolted together and a 52" 8 drawer Husky upper box on top of those (which is actually made by Waterloo). Cost total was about 450 if memory serves me right, and I love it. Granted, I still need more room, but I no longer wrench for a living so it does the job. My specialty stuff goes in my bench or on pegboard behind my bench.

 

[Gtamazing]

I have a friend that is a mechanic, that has always used a craftsmen box. Worse, it is what ever cheap box he can find. He fills it with Snap On, and other high quality tools.
One time, he was working at a shop that was broken into over night. The thieves took every single box, complete, except his.
The boss accused him of stealing all the boxes because his was the only one that was not touched. He looked at the boss, and said, "If you were a thief with all these snap on boxes around, would you mess with my pile of trash?"

Now that is funny