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Have You Got GAS?.....I Do!

bczygan

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Welding gas, that is!

Well, not quite yet.....

But tomorrow evening I pick up a used private owner, but newly 10 year certified 330CF cylinder full of C25 Argon.

Price $225.

Should keep me supplied for a long time for my Lincoln ES3200.

Bill
 
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bczygan

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OK, Don't laugh.

Tried out the welder in MIG mode. Lincoln 3200HD with .030 HF wire.

First try is ************ all over. Forgot to turn on the gas.....DUH!

The beads that look like beads are WITH gas. A little better. Bed rail material cleaned and with the gas set at 20 and the welder set at C 3. Beads are kind of small to me.

I absolutely LOVE the Vulcan hood! I can actually see the puddle! Doing little "e" shapes.

Bill
 

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bczygan

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Looks like I've been using the wrong gas feed amount.

Was reading the black numbers (Liters per minute), rather than the red numbers (Cubic feet per hour). Oooops!

Bill
 

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bczygan

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More beads and the back, showing heat penetration.

Critiques?

Bill
 

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dr_clyde

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Bill,

Run a few actual weld joints. You can only tell so much from beads on a flat plate. Try a couple tee joints and a few lap and **** welds on 1/8" steel or so.

Your beads look hot enough to use as a base line, but could probably be a touch hotter. Your travel speed looks a bit inconsistent.
 
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bczygan

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I think I'm inconsistent in distance too.

I see pieces of wire that spool out because I start too far away, before the arc is struck, and also at the end, because I keep the trigger depressed too long.

I wonder if I also have the spool and wire tension in the cabinet wrong.

And lastly, maybe my "e" shapes aren't wide enough.

I'm going to try some longer beads and mark first with soapstone.

Need more steel to practice with!



Bill
 

Lelandwelds

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I pick up a used private owner, but newly 10 year certified 330CF cylinder full of C25 Argon.

Price $225.


Bill

That is almost guaranteed to be a rental cylinder. How did the seller convince you it was an owner tank?

What did your favorite welding supply say about refills or exchanges?
 
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Lelandwelds

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How do you tell if a bead is good?

Bill

Miller, Lincoln, Esab and others have info with textbook perfect examples of good welds. They show common problems and the fixes. "Welding Design and Fabrication" and AWS offer more in depth technical advice. "The Fabricator" and NOMMA show good design with an artistic bent.

Forget weaves. Run stringer beads. Use both hands from good support.
 
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bczygan

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That is almost guaranteed to be a rental cylinder. How did the seller convince you it was an owner tank?

What did your favorite welding supply say about refills or exchanges?

No name on the ring.

Local place will fill on the spot. Don't have to leave or trade it in, like the big chains.

But 330CF should last me a long time!

Bill
 

Lelandwelds

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Local independent welders supply that filled the cylinder.


Cylinder Photos:

Bill

I don't have a dog in this hunt but that is a rental cylinder with the neck ring ground smooth.

There has been a huge amount of consolidation in the packaged gas industry so it is a bit murky compared to years past. If someone tries to force you to surrender it, try to stand firm. Ask for documentation of Proof of Ownership. So many companies with similiar names have sold out, merged, and split off divisions, it is really less than obvious who owns what exact cylinder.

Keep up good supplier relations and don't hop around from supplier to supplier. Who is your Bill of Sale from? Keep it in a safe place.
 

dr_clyde

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I don't have a dog in this hunt but that is a rental cylinder with the neck ring ground smooth.

There has been a huge amount of consolidation in the packaged gas industry so it is a bit murky compared to years past. If someone tries to force you to surrender it, try to stand firm. Ask for documentation of Proof of Ownership. So many companies with similiar names have sold out, merged, and split off divisions, it is really less than obvious who owns what exact cylinder.

Keep up good supplier relations and don't hop around from supplier to supplier. Who is your Bill of Sale from? Keep it in a safe place.

Perhaps Texas is a bit different than Michigan. Customer owned cylinders are not in the least bit rare here. I own about a dozen of this size, and my welding supplier doesn't give two shits who owned it before me. They'll swap it. They make their money on the gas, not the cylinder. Its in their best interest to have customers bring them cylinders.
 
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bczygan

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I don't have a dog in this hunt but that is a rental cylinder with the neck ring ground smooth.

There has been a huge amount of consolidation in the packaged gas industry so it is a bit murky compared to years past. If someone tries to force you to surrender it, try to stand firm. Ask for documentation of Proof of Ownership. So many companies with similiar names have sold out, merged, and split off divisions, it is really less than obvious who owns what exact cylinder.

Keep up good supplier relations and don't hop around from supplier to supplier. Who is your Bill of Sale from? Keep it in a safe place.

No proof of ownership or bill of sale. Don't need it.

How do you know it isn't an owner cylinder that never had a name on it?


The independent I would go to says the way it works here, is they get lots of the other guys cylinders in trade, and take them. It isn't mentioned, but so do the other places. Once in a while they will trade them back.

Bill
 
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bczygan

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I just checked with Airgas.

They only exchange at their locations. But if you go to their filling plant, you can get your own tank back.

Their filling plant is in Ferndale. It still takes a couple of days, because they wait until they have a full rack to do.

They do inspect the tank to make sure the ring doesn't have a name, and also that the inspection dates are still valid.

Bill
 

Lelandwelds

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Perhaps Texas is a bit different than Michigan. Customer owned cylinders are not in the least bit rare here. I own about a dozen of this size, and my welding supplier doesn't give two shits who owned it before me. They'll swap it. They make their money on the gas, not the cylinder. Its in their best interest to have customers bring them cylinders.

Michigan is still part of the US. The DOT and the ICC used to swing a $10k hammer in the old days on people who filled cylinders without the permission of the "owner". The "owner" was the company who bought 100 or 1000 from Chesterfield, Coyne, Worthington, etc. and had his company name stamped in the shoulder.

I am retired and don't care but "ARCO" was a company based on the east coast (I think). ( I think they were part of the old National Cylinder Gas or maybe Tri Power group? Too long ago to remember for me.) Air Gas and Praxair and the rest have really screwed the ownership bit up. If they're no longer in business, somebody owns that tank. It isn't the guy who carried it home from work, ground the neck ring smooth, and said " it's mine now".

I have very little sympathy for a company that couldn't keep track of their rental property. I thought the "loss of use " laws were a tiny bit unfair to companies with the misfortune to hire a few thieves. But, at the same time, it ***** for a WS to spend $100k over and over on cylinders just to collect $5 or $10 month and have a competitor get the benefit of gas sales without that investment.

And, yes, I have taken photos on competitors docks and trucks and sent "cease and desist" letters. It is about as much fun as repo work or holding shoplifters for the cops.

I am regretting my inability to avoid this topic already. I am not in the biz and Michigan is way outside my old territory. I wish I had just made fun of your welds.
 

dr_clyde

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Michigan is still part of the US. The DOT and the ICC used to swing a $10k hammer in the old days on people who filled cylinders without the permission of the "owner". The "owner" was the company who bought 100 or 1000 from Chesterfield, Coyne, Worthington, etc. and had his company name stamped in the shoulder.

I am retired and don't care but "ARCO" was a company based on the east coast (I think). ( I think they were part of the old National Cylinder Gas or maybe Tri Power group? Too long ago to remember for me.) Air Gas and Praxair and the rest have really screwed the ownership bit up. If they're no longer in business, somebody owns that tank. It isn't the guy who carried it home from work, ground the neck ring smooth, and said " it's mine now".

I have very little sympathy for a company that couldn't keep track of their rental property. I thought the "loss of use " laws were a tiny bit unfair to companies with the misfortune to hire a few thieves. But, at the same time, it ***** for a WS to spend $100k over and over on cylinders just to collect $5 or $10 month and have a competitor get the benefit of gas sales without that investment.

And, yes, I have taken photos on competitors docks and trucks and sent "cease and desist" letters. It is about as much fun as repo work or holding shoplifters for the cops.

I am regretting my inability to avoid this topic already. I am not in the biz and Michigan is way outside my old territory. I wish I had just made fun of your welds.

Let's just slow down for a minute. I'm not entirely sure how this became a game of finger pointing and making fun of people's work. I simply was pointing out that I'm not sure how things work in your neck of the woods, but around here, we have lots customer owned cylinders floating around. They're not rare.

When I go into my local welding supply, of which there are like, 12ish locations around Michigan, I have 2 options when I need gas. I can either short term rent, like by the month, or an outright purchase. They don't lease. None of that "99 year lease" BS. As a result, there's a lot of customer owned cylinders in the greater Michigan area. In the last 5-6 shops I worked in, not a one of them had a lease on a welding cylinder. They all owned them outright.

So what I'm saying here is it's entirely possible Bills cylinder was always a customer owned cylinder. No reason at all to doubt him.
 
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bczygan

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Well It's customer owned now!

The independent welding supply would also have sold me an owner tank that size, filled for $300.

Lets get back to making fun of my welds!:D

Bill
 
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Lelandwelds

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Well It's customer owned now!

The independent welding supply would also have sold me an owner tank that size, filled for $300.

Lets get back to making fun of my welds!:D

Bill
some Miller sources

200 each MIG videos

https://www.millerwelds.com/resources/video-library#/?filters[0].key=processes_sm&filters[0].value=2ee1e49f7bb749328c9b1fd8f9d5d0c5

Examples of common mig errors and the fixes

https://www.millerwelds.com/resources/welding-resources/mig-welding-resources/mig-welding-tips

Submitted projects by end users

https://www.millerwelds.com/industries/welding-projects

My old Miller password for the" distributor only" training materials is no longer valid. Esab and lincoln, Victor, Thermal Dynamics, UTP, J W Harris, and pretty much everybody else have training materials. Every career Welding Supply Salesman has access to the stuff with minimal effort.

Welding Design and fabrication has great articles

http://m.weldingdesign.com

Training and pop quizzes

https://www.millerwelds.com/resources/welding-resources/presentations-and-quizzes
 
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bczygan

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some Miller sources

200 each MIG videos

https://www.millerwelds.com/resources/video-library#/?filters[0].key=processes_sm&filters[0].value=2ee1e49f7bb749328c9b1fd8f9d5d0c5

Examples of common mig errors and the fixes

https://www.millerwelds.com/resources/welding-resources/mig-welding-resources/mig-welding-tips

Submitted projects by end users

https://www.millerwelds.com/industries/welding-projects

My old Miller password for the" distributor only" training materials is no longer valid. Esab and lincoln, Victor, Thermal Dynamics, UTP, J W Harris, and pretty much everybody else have training materials. Every career Welding Supply Salesman has access to the stuff with minimal effort.

Welding Design and fabrication has great articles

http://m.weldingdesign.com

Training and pop quizzes

https://www.millerwelds.com/resources/welding-resources/presentations-and-quizzes

Thank you very much for the links!

Bill
 

Lelandwelds

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Thank you very much for the links!

Bill

It is pretty common for career Welding Supply Salesman to keep a folder with educational materials and links. I used to certify groups at companies in Victor's Safety Program. I printed up diploma style certicates with their names. It satisfied continuing education and safety requirements. I did a flash arrestor demo where I exploded neutral mixes of oxygen and acetylene at the start of each class while people were still talking and not paying attention. It was a popular class.

On request, I would teach people to cut or weld with their new equipment.

Ask your local guy for help. He has a lot available if he wants. My employers paid for hundreds of hours of my training. I worked closely with local high school and community college programs. Two of the local union halls asked me for stuff. One of the other salesmen was a Certified Welding Inspector and administered the coupon tests. Any open houses or road shows in your market? Meet the factory guys and ask for educational materials. Most of them have some freebies in their budgets.
 
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