have you REALLY rounded something off? for example, have ou actually rounded a nut/bolt off using ANY brand socket or wrench?? even if they are off 1 mm, i dont seein it rounding off... using an adjustable wrench, sure, but not a fixed size tool, regardless of brand...
have you REALLY rounded something off?
- Thread starter stupidjet
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brianpgriset
Well-known member
Yes I have, but I believe the bigger issue was the poor meterial properties of the fastener, NOT the sloppy tolerances of th wrench. At least it's been that way for a few situations I've come across.
Down Under Bloke
Well-known member
stupidjet said:
You are obviously one of the other people I hate. Sh%# happens to me, not other people.
KingPerformance
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Yes, I rounded off items with a tool that is a well liked brand on this forum. Grabbed a Snap On wrench/tool and took the nut/bolt etc off. Personally, I buy based on how a product works, not on a name, and from that day on I RARELY purchase that brand of tool. And it’s REALLY difficult because it is an easy to find lifetime warranted tool. I didn’t believe any of the hype until I started using quality tools.
As for the quality of what you are working on, yes, that does play a part, but when a better tool will take care of the problem, you have to start to wonder about quality forgings.
As for the quality of what you are working on, yes, that does play a part, but when a better tool will take care of the problem, you have to start to wonder about quality forgings.
TNToy
Well-known member
Aside from an adjustable wrench, there's something else that will round fasteners fairly easily: an open-end wrench.
That, when you asked me originally, was my whole beef with Craftsman. Under load, both the tool-truck brand wrenches and Craftsman open ends will spread, widening just enough to round over to the next side of the hex. However, it takes a pipe on the handle to make a Snappy spread the way a craftsman does. Also, it's easy to permanently deform the craftsman/pittsburgh/etc wrenches, where the jaws have permanently spread.
Hell, I can show you a photo of a beat-to-hell 12mm Snap-On, Matco, SK, and Craftsman side by side. The first two are the only ones with the jaws about where they started.
That, when you asked me originally, was my whole beef with Craftsman. Under load, both the tool-truck brand wrenches and Craftsman open ends will spread, widening just enough to round over to the next side of the hex. However, it takes a pipe on the handle to make a Snappy spread the way a craftsman does. Also, it's easy to permanently deform the craftsman/pittsburgh/etc wrenches, where the jaws have permanently spread.
Hell, I can show you a photo of a beat-to-hell 12mm Snap-On, Matco, SK, and Craftsman side by side. The first two are the only ones with the jaws about where they started.
KingPerformance
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TNToy said:Aside from an adjustable wrench, there's something else that will round fasteners fairly easily: an open-end wrench.
That, when you asked me originally, was my whole beef with Craftsman. Under load, both the tool-truck brand wrenches and Craftsman open ends will spread, widening just enough to round over to the next side of the hex. However, it takes a pipe on the handle to make a Snappy spread the way a craftsman does. Also, it's easy to permanently deform the craftsman/pittsburgh/etc wrenches, where the jaws have permanently spread.
Hell, I can show you a photo of a beat-to-hell 12mm Snap-On, Matco, SK, and Craftsman side by side. The first two are the only ones with the jaws about where they started.
By both the tool truck brands what are you referring to? Matco and Cornwell? I don't have a problem with my Snap On open ended wrenches spreading, however my craftsman wrenches have spread to the point of not coming back into shape.
TNToy
Well-known member
You can apply enough torque to round the snap-on wrench over to the next hex. It just requires a pipe on the handle, and usually the nut breaks loose first.
The jaws on all wrenches DO spread somewhat at large torque loads: They'd shatter if they didn't. It's just extremely tough to permanently deform a Snap-On wrench. But I have seen it done by guys around here who apparently only work with a set of wrenches and a very large hammer. You know, the guys who can break anything?
The jaws on all wrenches DO spread somewhat at large torque loads: They'd shatter if they didn't. It's just extremely tough to permanently deform a Snap-On wrench. But I have seen it done by guys around here who apparently only work with a set of wrenches and a very large hammer. You know, the guys who can break anything?
KingPerformance
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TNToy said:
I know the type you speak of. 1/2 Impact with 3/8 chrome socket HAMMERING away at a bolt making sure it won't go anywhere. Top drawer is the hammer drawer! Or they have that "SPECIAL" tool in the bottom drawer of their box ... the cast iron pipe that fits NICELY over the handle of their driver yet doesn't seem to fit to well on the breaker bar ... oh well no matter! Junkman
Well-known member
I never force anything..... I just get a bigger hammer or a longer pipe.....
Cebby
Well-known member
6 point closed end wrenches and sockets round stuff off less than 12 point. Ask me how I know...
to have a wrench open up and move to the next hex, your talkin about a minimum of 3mm...thats a lot of spead. anyone have photo or video proof? lots of he said she said but never any proof. i still have a hard time seeing a fixed tool rounding something off. i can see the tool breaking, but opening up?
TNToy
Well-known member
Are you serious?
I can take a 13mm wrench made by ANYONE and round it over to the next flat on a tie-rod end every single time... just don't break the jam nut loose first.
You've seriously never seen this happen? Have you ever worked on a vehicle before?
Steel bends. Take a crowbar, wedge it under something immovable, and put all of your weight on it. It bent, right? Well, the jaws on your wrench are made of pretty much the same stuff. Better wrenches use higher quality steel with a much better heat-treating process, and so they fit fasteners more tightly, and don't deflect as much.
If you don't believe us, stick the open end of a wrench on something that will not move (a big suspension bolt is a good choice) and try to tighten it with all your strength. Ooh... look at that. The wrench's jaws are spreading. That's what they make box ends for - breaking loose really tight fasteners.
I can take a 13mm wrench made by ANYONE and round it over to the next flat on a tie-rod end every single time... just don't break the jam nut loose first.
You've seriously never seen this happen? Have you ever worked on a vehicle before?
Steel bends. Take a crowbar, wedge it under something immovable, and put all of your weight on it. It bent, right? Well, the jaws on your wrench are made of pretty much the same stuff. Better wrenches use higher quality steel with a much better heat-treating process, and so they fit fasteners more tightly, and don't deflect as much.
If you don't believe us, stick the open end of a wrench on something that will not move (a big suspension bolt is a good choice) and try to tighten it with all your strength. Ooh... look at that. The wrench's jaws are spreading. That's what they make box ends for - breaking loose really tight fasteners.
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Actually, the smaller the hex size, the less the wrench has to open. That's the reason it's so much easier to round smaller nuts/bolt heads versus the larger one.
Use .866 as the constant to find the distance across hex corners on a HEXAGON by knowing only the distance from flat to flat. Regardless of the size of the hex, this will pretty much get you within a few thousands of inch for the CORNER to CORNER distance.
Let's take a few different wrench sizes and notice how the larger the nut goes, the wider it is across the POINTS of the hex, which is where the wrench would have to "open" in order for it to turn without technically "rounding" the corner off. Now, with that being said, the softer the material the fastener is made from, the less deflection on the wrenches part is needed to "round" the fastener. The lower the grade fastener, the softer it is.
1/8" wrench
.125 / .866 = .144
.144 - .125 = .019"
1/4" wrench
.250 / .866 = .287
.287 - .250 = .037"
1/2" wrench
.5 / .866 = .577
.577-.500 = .077"
3/4" wrench
.750 / .866 = .855
.866 - .750 = .116"
1" wrench
1.000 / .866 = 1.155
1.155 - 1.000 = .155"
Now, with all of that being said, lets say the wrench DOESN'T deflect this much, then the fastener has to displace the material on the corners (the amount that is figured in the above calculations) by that same amount. I honestly believe that when fasteners "round off" it is more attributed to the weaker material in the fastener than it is the deflection of the heat treated and hardened wrench.
My .02 cents worth.
Use .866 as the constant to find the distance across hex corners on a HEXAGON by knowing only the distance from flat to flat. Regardless of the size of the hex, this will pretty much get you within a few thousands of inch for the CORNER to CORNER distance.
Let's take a few different wrench sizes and notice how the larger the nut goes, the wider it is across the POINTS of the hex, which is where the wrench would have to "open" in order for it to turn without technically "rounding" the corner off. Now, with that being said, the softer the material the fastener is made from, the less deflection on the wrenches part is needed to "round" the fastener. The lower the grade fastener, the softer it is.
1/8" wrench
.125 / .866 = .144
.144 - .125 = .019"
1/4" wrench
.250 / .866 = .287
.287 - .250 = .037"
1/2" wrench
.5 / .866 = .577
.577-.500 = .077"
3/4" wrench
.750 / .866 = .855
.866 - .750 = .116"
1" wrench
1.000 / .866 = 1.155
1.155 - 1.000 = .155"
Now, with all of that being said, lets say the wrench DOESN'T deflect this much, then the fastener has to displace the material on the corners (the amount that is figured in the above calculations) by that same amount. I honestly believe that when fasteners "round off" it is more attributed to the weaker material in the fastener than it is the deflection of the heat treated and hardened wrench.
My .02 cents worth.
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WOW... I'm impressed ...-lecroix- said:
bobthecop
Member
I've run into the rounded bolt head or nut, and sometimes it was the guy who tightened it, however I have some metwrench sockets and I can usually break it loose, then I also have a grinder and cut-off wheel when I can't. Snap-on seems to work much better. Using the right tool keeps this from happening.
...dave
Well-known member
-lecroix- said:
Yup. And don't forget, if you're dealing with fasteners that have been rusting in place for 40-50 years or more (as i suspect quite a few of us here are prone to do), they heads in some cases have actually gotten smaller as a result of corrosion, making it that much easier to round them off even when you're using the "correct" size 6-point socket. Which i have done, more often than i care to remember (though it is generally preferable to "Option B", in which the head snaps cleanly off of the fastener)
volvo
Well-known member
Anyway use one of those reverse screw looking sockets of the proper size and take that rounded nut/bolt right off/out if not rusted or welded on.. ..H
Junkman
Well-known member
I have some sockets that are in 32nd of an inch increments, that I use when I find a rusted bolt head that is undersized. Rarely have I had a bolt head break off, since I will try my best to make sure that isn't going to happen. If it doesn't break loose with a small amount of effort, out comes other options to helping break the bond between the threads and what it is threaded into. Heat is one good method, and striking with a hammer is another. It is always easier to resolve the problem prior to breaking the head off than it is to drill and tap the hole later on.
trainer
Well-known member
When things get rounded off, its usually a case of using tools incorrectly or using the wrong tool (not necessarily the wrong brand of tool).
I've rounded off brass fittings because i was using an open end wrench instead of a flare nut wrench, but I was at a remote camp and the selection of tools was limited to what was behind the seat of my truck. The channel- locks came out next and the repair was finished....wasn't pretty but it got done.
I've rounded off brass fittings because i was using an open end wrench instead of a flare nut wrench, but I was at a remote camp and the selection of tools was limited to what was behind the seat of my truck. The channel- locks came out next and the repair was finished....wasn't pretty but it got done.
volvo said:
i have those but havent used them yet. what i have used was the screw out or whatever they are called..messed up a phillips screw and put the craftsman bit in the dril..started it up and bam, it just makes a hole int he screw heard. ****, what to do now? i step it up a size and try again, WHALA, it worked. they KEY is go SLOWLY with the drill, liekt eh slowest possible so it can DIG into the screw and hold rather the just drill is out.
It's obvious to me alot of you haven't worked on cars for a living and have no idea how nuts and bolts corrode and become difficult to remove.
Try getting rusted exhaust nuts/bolts out when they have rusted in between sizes.
As far as using open end wrenches the best I ever used is Snap On flank drive plus. I used my regular Snap on wrench to try and get a 14mm bolt loose and rounded it off because it was so tight. I borrowed a coworkers flank drive plus wrench and because of where the bolt was located I had to put the wrench on the same rounded off flats, I broke that bolt loose like it was nothing.
The next time the Snap On dealer came in I traded my old wrenches for the flank drive plus ones.
Try getting rusted exhaust nuts/bolts out when they have rusted in between sizes.
As far as using open end wrenches the best I ever used is Snap On flank drive plus. I used my regular Snap on wrench to try and get a 14mm bolt loose and rounded it off because it was so tight. I borrowed a coworkers flank drive plus wrench and because of where the bolt was located I had to put the wrench on the same rounded off flats, I broke that bolt loose like it was nothing.
The next time the Snap On dealer came in I traded my old wrenches for the flank drive plus ones.
Junkman
Well-known member
drbill said:
I started over 50 years ago, long before there were all these fancy tools, and you had to learn how to accomplish the task at hand using crude and rudimentary tools. In those days, we weren't in such a rush that we damaged parts just to get where we needed to be, and replaced them at the customers expense.
It's true that some of us don't work on cars for a living, but I've been working on cars for almost 50 years ... so I have seen my share of rounded nuts and bolts ..
kartracer55
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TNToy said:Are you serious?
I can take a 13mm wrench made by ANYONE and round it over to the next flat on a tie-rod end every single time... just don't break the jam nut loose first.
http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item...&group_ID=1626&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog
Worth its weight in gold. If you get it positioned right, ya just brace it against something and you now have two hands to break the jam nut free. This thing has saved my *** so many times.
Im assuming you have one though, but for everybody else who does aligments and doesnt... GET ONE!!!
Junkman
Well-known member
kartracer55 said:
What would I do with my pipe wrench if I got this tool?????
Hawk231
Well-known member
...dave said:
Sigh... Like the long timing cover bolts are prone to do on Buick engines.
stupidjet said:
I'm not implying that, But it's my opinion they are the best.
I have other tools (Mac, SK , Craftsman) When you get into larger sizes it's not as much of a issue.
Snap On doesn't have as big of a advantage since their patent ran out on "Flank Drive" for their sockets.
If you can take a look at how sockets are made. Most are just hex in shape, then look at a Snap On flank drive socket and see how it's made to make contact farther away from the point of the hex.
One more thing Snap On line wrenches are the best PERIOD
KingPerformance
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-lecroix- said:
Impressive numbers; math has always been a hobby of mine. One question though, how do you figure that the treated and hardened steel doesn't deflect when we obviously have wrenches that the open end has spread? I'm not a metallurgist, but exactly how hard is a grade 8 bolt? Do you think that shearing forces could have any effect on rounding off bolts?
I was only pointing out that the amount a wrench would have to deflect in order to clear the corners.
In my opinion, once one gets to any fastener above approx. 1/4" - 3/8" then "rounding" is more attributed to fastener deformation than wrench deflection. Heat treated metal is brittle by nature, and for a wrench to deflect that much it would more than likely break before "stretching" that large amount.
I think rounding of a fastener is a combination of wrench deflection AND fastener deformation, with more emphasis on fastener deformation.
In my opinion, once one gets to any fastener above approx. 1/4" - 3/8" then "rounding" is more attributed to fastener deformation than wrench deflection. Heat treated metal is brittle by nature, and for a wrench to deflect that much it would more than likely break before "stretching" that large amount.
I think rounding of a fastener is a combination of wrench deflection AND fastener deformation, with more emphasis on fastener deformation.
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