Having new CAC system installed

[Vernon29RW]

Hey everybody

This has been one of the most resourceful places on the Internet I have ever come across relating to all things involving home improvement. Not just related to my garage. So I figured there are more than enough pros and diy pros on here to maybe give me a little guidance.

I'm having a company come by on Thursday to give me a quote on what it would cost to have a new central air system installed in my home. I have a single story ranch 1700 sq ft with a wide open attic and has never had a system installed before. I guess I'm hoping you guys could give me some advice on what to look for in them as a company, questions to ask, maybe even a rough price figure (located in Long Island, NY). They are a Lennox premier dealer and also noticed that the current line of Lennox units are rated among the best on the market right now so I'm looking to have either a lennox system installed or I was also contemplating those multi room Mitsubishi units (even though the wife isn't a fan).

Looking forward to hearing from you guys,
Steve

 

[kj_mustang]

Do not give the job to any contractor that doesn't do a manual J load calculation. If they come in and say; "For this much square footage, you need this much CFM so it will need a X ton unit.", then tell them thank you for coming out and forgot about that company.

 

[Jackfre]

It is very difficult to add ductwork to a house...and to do it well. If you go ducted, make sure a pressure test is done on the completed system. Here in CA the max allowable leakage is 6%. I will never install a piece of ductwork again, except for exhaust systems.

On the Isle of Long you have pretty incredible electrical rates. The Mitsu, Fujitsu, Daikin mini-splits are much more efficient than the central system and offer better zone control. It is very difficult to properly and efficiently zone a central system. Costly as well. mini-splits dehumidify very well too.

When I was the Fujitsu rep in New England I used tell people that had a problem with the evaporators on the wall that "the longer you live with them the better looking they become". Some folks would report back that advice was correct.

In addition to my mini-splits I also have a Rinnai Energysaver Direct vent wall furnace. I take advantage of the gas heat with that unit. Efficient, quiet and cool to the touch.

I have found the combination to be the right solution for comfort, and operating cost.

 

[Zeke]

Jack is right about optimum distribution. Mustang is right about the Manual J software. It'f not that hard to do. But, your system will end up working well for A/C in most rooms and the heating will work well in a different set of rooms. How are you windows and doors? Backdrafts on vents? Insulation? The installer should determine all of these factors.

My system was installed by a guy that has installed about 5000 houses over time. He has a tendency to walk a house and design the system in his head. It works OK but I had to make a couple of changes. I once designed a system for someone else. It worked pretty good according to them. So some of this is just common sense. But that total load calc is important.

 

[mygarageone]

Well asking them for any heat gain or load before they actually win the bid is asking too much before they get the job .
The cost of doing estimates now days with out spending time on a manual j , most good contractors can give you an estimate close enough based on experience and there bid should qualify they will do a heat loss or load calc if they are awarded the job and then if he doesn't produce one before he starts , don't give him any funds up front.

I tryed the charging for a bid and never got past the phone call , even if you tell them you'll give it back if awarded the job. So I found this works for me .
I also tell the client that if my estimate is based on equipment size not needed , I'll reduce the quote price accordingly. I recently bid a job and I was $ 800.00 more on a furnace but she gave it to me because of the way I approached the bid , the other guy said we know what were doing and don't need a heat loss to size a furnace.
Yet his quote was actualy based on the furnace btu.'s I put in. But I approched it with what made her feel comfortable .
I don't have time to give out free quote's besides doing what it takes to get the info for the calc's especially when they are getting 5 differant quotes.

 

[Vernon29RW]

wow thanks guys for all the responses!! BTW I have hot water baseboard heat so this will be strictly for a/c. Jack, I tried the same argument with my wife about the fijitsu wall units but she's totally against having those things on the wall. She's a damn stubborn woman. I love the idea of being able to only run the side of the house that needs to be cool. However I also believe those systems run quite a bit more money over a conventional duct system. Depending on where this company comes in at price for each setup I'll have to try and work on her with the ductless system. Can anybody give me a rough cost estimate on what to expect for either of these systems? My attic is literally one long open room so I don't think routing all the ductwork would be that difficult. Thanks again everybody for all the input.

Steve

 

[pseudorealityx]

I recently had a 3.5 ton Mitsubishi outdoor unit mated with 5 indoor units priced out. We were using a mix of ceiling mount and wall mount indoor units.

Cost of just parts was a bit north of $7k. That's before labor, refrigerant lines, etc.

 

[Trey T]

I estimate no more than $7500

Assume you run two system:

1. Traditional Central HVAC $5500
- $300 copper
- $1000 install
- $3000 system (3-4ton depend on home)
- $500 ridgid duct
- $500 duct install
- $200 supplies

2. Mini-split for attic $2000
- $1500 for 15000BTU heat pump
- $500 install

That's with a bunch of assumptions.

 

[pseudorealityx]

That is ridiculously low in my opinion. $500 labor to duct an entire house that's never had duct work? $200 in 'supplies' to cover diffusers, grilles, flex, fittings, dampers, mastic, tape, insulation?

I don't see that as being realistic at all.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Do NOT get too hung up on brand names. Many of the main components inside of an A/C system are actually used by multiple companies. Also, most manufacturers sell the same unit with a different color paint and perhaps warranty under a different name for a lot less.

One of the major installers in my area will sell you ANY major brand A/C system for the same price (assuming the same size and features).

Oversized systems do not dehumidify well. North of the Mason-Dixon line, super high efficiency system will NOT pay you back on the additional cost.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I recently had a 3.5 ton Mitsubishi outdoor unit mated with 5 indoor units priced out. We were using a mix of ceiling mount and wall mount indoor units.

Cost of just parts was a bit north of $7k. That's before labor, refrigerant lines, etc.

Sounds high, but 5 air handlers are why you do NOT see mini-split systems being installed in most homes. Nice to have separate room controls ... if you can afford it ! (I would hate to see the cost of lines and labor ! )

 

[theoldwizard1]

Using "rule of thumb" and your location, you are between 2.5 and 3.0 tons. If you have really good insulation 2.5 will be fine. If you don't have good insulation, add more to your attic. You pay for insulation ONCE. You pay for electricity to run the A/C every day that it gets hot.

Many places will give you a discount if you install before May.

 

[theoldwizard1]

- $3000 system (3-4ton depend on home)

Way overkill for Long Island, NY !

 

[qctech]

Just had my 2400 sq. ft ranch done last year 4 ton unit cost approximately $9000 complete we got a rebate from PSEG so it was actually less. We had a Carrier unit installed.

 

[Trey T]

That is ridiculously low in my opinion. $500 labor to duct an entire house that's never had duct work? $200 in 'supplies' to cover diffusers, grilles, flex, fittings, dampers, mastic, tape, insulation?

I don't see that as being realistic at all.

What do you think it should be? Justify your reason please.

Labor:
-$40-75/hr depend of technician level
-two techs, mid-level and junior-level
-5hrs
----TOTAL to about $600

This is not any "entire house", it's a 1700sq-ft home, it's a nice starter home but definitely not big, about 40ftx40ft home.

Those estimation I gave is based on my experience as HVAC install, air duct return work, ridgid duct work, and an engineer (project manager as career). I've done a lot of cost estimate in different industries and I'm usually not too far off but that's a very rough numbers.

 

[Trey T]

Do not give the job to any contractor that doesn't do a manual J load calculation. If they come in and say; "For this much square footage, you need this much CFM so it will need a X ton unit.", then tell them thank you for coming out and forgot about that company.

That would be the best practice and there should be more education about properly sizing ventilation system properly like in the commercial/industrial building where licensed HVAC engineers does the calculation.

I think home ventilation system can be complex, especially multi-level home.

 

[Zeke]

I paid 7K for a package unit installed with new ducting. I ran the gas and electric. Probably could have gotten it for $6000 if I shopped better. The contractor paid for the crane.

I would think the labor on the splits would be a lot less. I almost went with those but it would have been one in each bedroom and one for the rest of the house due to our layout. Probably would not have been that good. At 4 units it's just better to install a whole house system IMHO.

 

[Vernon29RW]

UPDATE:

So I had the local Lennox dealer come by. I was intrigued by the new Lennox series as they seem to be extremely efficient and was rated as the best buy on a few websites I visited. He quoted me three different prices based on the type of condensing unit I buy. The basic one which is a single stage unit/18 SEER was $13500. Next is the 21 SEER dual stage for $15200 and finally their top of the line unit 25 SEER variable speed for $16000. The two top ones have independent temperature and humidity control. The way the rep explained it is I could keep the house in the upper 70's because I would be able to knock down the humidity to almost nothing. To be honest I was pretty sticker shocked. I thought these things run around 8-10 with the better units around 10ish. They seem like their mostly a Lennox brand dealer although they claim to sell multiple brands on their website. All three units come with those new wifi thermostats, all copper construction, UV air purification. The rep was saying other known brands like Rheem/American Standard/etc use aluminum piping.

Despite the sticker shocked I was very impressed with the systems Lennox has to offer. If I do go ahead with this setup its going to be really freaking nice. The nicest thing I have in my house right now. Looks like based on my sq footage and region, a 3 ton unit will be more than sufficient.

 

[brewchief]

I've worked for a Lennox dealer for over 18 years, the Lennox icomfort wifi stat is the nicest thermostat I've dealt with, very intuitive and user friendly.

The dehumidification feature works very well, I found myself keeping the temp a couple degrees warmer in the summer due to increased comfort.

Do you have more cooling hours per year then I'm thinking or are your power rates very high? We rarely sell more then a 17 seer unit here in MI, our main sellers are 13-14 seer units, the payback on a higher system can exceed the systems life expectancy.

If you have exact indoor and outdoor model numbers I can look up the AHRI matchup that will tell what seer your system should run at, don't expect all sizes of each model to run at the advertised number.

If you're going to make the investment consider a heatpump, it may be more efficient at least in the spring and fall months depending on electric and gas/oil prices.

 

[PT Doc]

21 and 25 seer are way overkill in my opinion. Have a Carrier and Trane installers come out and compare. To really get the max out of a system, the furnace and ac units should be matched. Ask all the questions now.

 

[Vernon29RW]

Hmm interesting!! The guy also quoted me a price of $10500 for a 14 SEER single stage unit without basically any of the features the signature series offered. After seeing the options the nicer setups come with this one seemed like the most stripped down bare bones system you could install in a home. Like something you'd expect to see in a flipped house.

BrewChief, with regards to the heat pump, I have hot water baseboard heat that really does a good job. We had a brutal winter here in NY where we went over a month with only a few days getting into the high 30's. The house was held at a steady 68 degrees and never fluctuated. Or are you just suggesting to use the heat pump to supplement minimal heat as the seasons change and only using the hot water heat for the brutal winter months?

We're blessed with not only the highest property taxes but also highest power rates in the country. Only really need heavy a/c usage from late June to early September but obviously could benefit from its use from middle of May into middle of October. The air handler I was quoted was the CBX32MV and the condensing units were the XC17, XC21, and XC25.

PTDoc definitely going to have a dealer of another manufacturer come out. Just trying to figure out what's the next best brand after Lennox.

This is the site that I found some useful information in comparing different manufacturers and also rated the Lennox Signature series best among all units currently in 2015. http://central-air-conditioning-units-review.toptenreviews.com/dave-lennox-review.html

 

[brewchief]

Heat pump I would just use in spring and fall and use the boiler during the winter months.

XC25 with CBX32MV036 air handler gets you a 23 seer system AHRI ref#5947287
XC21 with CBX32MV036 air handler gets you a 19 seer system AHRI ref#5991578
XC21 with CBX32MV048 air handler gets you a 19.5 seer system AHRI ref#5991579
XC17 with CBX32MV048 air handler gets you a 17 seer system AHRI ref#5221335
XC17 with CBX32MV036 air handler gets you a 16 seer system AHRI ref#5221334

All of the above are with 3 ton condensing units.

All of the Lennox units will come with 5 year parts warranty that will extend to 10 years to the original owner as long as the dealer registers it, make sure that they do.

The icomfort wifi stat can be used with pretty much any equipment if you use a interface module, you won't get all of the benefits of the communicating stat but you will get a very nice wifi stat.

The next generation icomfort stat is on it's way, it will be able to be linked to your phone and will adjust heat or cooling when you get close to home automatically.


While I am a fan of Lennox I will make the point that a proper install is more important then brand, the highest quality equipment will not lead a long and happy life if not properly installed.

Regardless of brand have a high quality media filter installed, a 1" thick el cheapo filter will do very little to clean the air or protect your investment in new equipment.

 

[Vernon29RW]

BrewChief! Awesome man thanks for the info. They said both the XC21 and XC25 will have a 10 year warranty on ALL parts and labor with the XC17 having 5 on parts and 10 on labor. They said they use a 5" thick filter with a UV air filtration system and they also said they mount the air handler on chains to the rafters rather than mounting to the joists to avoid any unnecessary noise. Sounded strange but makes sense. I'm really bummed though about the price. I'm not gonna lie. I really really like this system. I love new technology and I have always been a fan of gizmos. I just have a hard time swallowing the $15k price!!!!

 

[Trey T]

Can you post up some price quotes the the guys drawn up? Btw, are the dry walls installed?

$10K is quite high but I would need to know what they're doing to understand if it's fair or not.

Goodman (Daikin) started the whole aluminum piping component and I believe it's getting quite popular.

Remember a good system starts with a good install not brand or warranty.

 

[pseudorealityx]

Sounds high, but 5 air handlers are why you do NOT see mini-split systems being installed in most homes. Nice to have separate room controls ... if you can afford it ! (I would hate to see the cost of lines and labor ! )

That price was direct from the distributor, not the contractor.

This particular client decided to go with a standard split and duct after hearing the cost. TOTAL cost there from the contractor (this is a multi-family building with 3/4 bedroom apartments) was ~$9k per apartment, including labor, copper, duct, etc.

 

[theoldwizard1]

BTW I have hot water baseboard heat so this will be strictly for a/c.

Ny buddy has a home like that. When they added A/C they used "special" small diameter (2"?) insulated, flexible tubing in the attic. Works well.

Brewchief did have a good suggestion. I don't see why this same type of tubing could not deliver warm air in spring and fall.

 

[theoldwizard1]

While I am a fan of Lennox I will make the point that a proper install is more important then brand, the highest quality equipment will not lead a long and happy life if not properly installed.

Regardless of brand have a high quality media filter installed, a 1" thick el cheapo filter will do very little to clean the air or protect your investment in new equipment.

Also good advice !


Brewchief, what is you opinion on the super high efficiency units over "standard" (like 23 SEER vs 16-17 SEER). When my 20 yo compressor died last year, I wanted a much higher SEER system. The installers talked me out of it saying the cooling season was "too short" to get any kind of a pay back. (What they did install was a set up from what I had.)

 

[pseudorealityx]

On a cooling only unit, I don't see the payback being great when you step up into the really high SEER rating stuff. I do think that multi-speed or variable compressors and evaporator fans are worthwhile if you live in a humid climate... ie, the entire eastern half of the country. Those things are typically standard anytime you're going higher than ~16 SEER, but it depends on the exact models chosen.

As you move south, you need to balance the additional A/C use with the generally cheaper electricity costs if you're only looking at financial payback.

 

[PT Doc]

Hmm interesting!! The guy also quoted me a price of $10500 for a 14 SEER single stage unit without basically any of the features the signature series offered. After seeing the options the nicer setups come with this one seemed like the most stripped down bare bones system you could install in a home. Like something you'd expect to see in a flipped house.

BrewChief, with regards to the heat pump, I have hot water baseboard heat that really does a good job. We had a brutal winter here in NY where we went over a month with only a few days getting into the high 30's. The house was held at a steady 68 degrees and never fluctuated. Or are you just suggesting to use the heat pump to supplement minimal heat as the seasons change and only using the hot water heat for the brutal winter months?

We're blessed with not only the highest property taxes but also highest power rates in the country. Only really need heavy a/c usage from late June to early September but obviously could benefit from its use from middle of May into middle of October. The air handler I was quoted was the CBX32MV and the condensing units were the XC17, XC21, and XC25.

PTDoc definitely going to have a dealer of another manufacturer come out. Just trying to figure out what's the next best brand after Lennox.

This is the site that I found some useful information in comparing different manufacturers and also rated the Lennox Signature series best among all units currently in 2015. http://central-air-conditioning-units-review.toptenreviews.com/dave-lennox-review.html

sounds like someone convinced you that lennox was the best brand. that must have have bern the lennox dealer.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I do think that multi-speed or variable compressors and evaporator fans are worthwhile if you live in a humid climate... ie, the entire eastern half of the country.

Make that south EASTERN quarter of the country. Not worth it north of the Mason-Dixon line.

 

[Falcon67]

When I was the Fujitsu rep in New England I used tell people that had a problem with the evaporators on the wall that "the longer you live with them the better looking they become". Some folks would report back that advice was correct.

There are also cassette units that install in the attic so you don't have a bulbous unit sitting on the wall. I've looked that those because only the living room/kitchen in this house is "open concept". The rest is walled off individual rooms of odd sizes. I can't see hanging an evap unit in every room and two in the big space. A 9K evap in a 6x12 bath doesn't seem right.

Also, think about service and parts. Even the guys here are like "I can sell you a Lennox but the parts are high buck."

 

[yeldogt]

Do I understand correctly. This is a totally new system including ductwork in an attic? Where is the insulation?

I have two units -- one in the attic ........and I'm taking it out.

Having a heat pump with hot water heat is a good idea with radiant or big radiators -- no point turing on the whole system for a bit of heat this time of year. Those systems are a bit slower to respond. With hot water baseboard (fin type) -- they heat so quickly plus normally a bit of zoning .. not as important. Especially with NG.

Those prices are about what we would pay in PA/ NJ. There is a point where the extra SEER will not get you a payback. The big difference with the higher end systems is the VS motors and the two speed compressors .. or even VS compressors with a Greenspeed or similar Trane unit. They are very quiet and make for a very comfy house. LI has a wide temp difference and humidity -- if you are going to be in the house a while .. get the two speed compressor and VS air-handler. In LI -- I would do it just for the humidity.

 

[yeldogt]

There are also cassette units that install in the attic so you don't have a bulbous unit sitting on the wall. I've looked that those because only the living room/kitchen in this house is "open concept". The rest is walled off individual rooms of odd sizes. I can't see hanging an evap unit in every room and two in the big space. A 9K evap in a 6x12 bath doesn't seem right.

Also, think about service and parts. Even the guys here are like "I can sell you a Lennox but the parts are high buck."

I have an estimate on my desk for those -- they are a bit more money vs wall .. and require some space above -- but I think they are a ticket for my expanded cape.

Don't come in the smallest size either. I don't want to use the wall units.

 

[Vernon29RW]

Lots of great responses everyone.....THANKS!!! I have blown insulation up in the attic a little higher than the joists so 6-7" thick. Yes the humidity is insane here in the summer. I don't handle heat well and I have a big 240V a/c unit in the living room/dining room area which makes my meter want to spin off its axis! I find myself suffering as long as I can before I switch that monster on cause its so damn expensive to run. Just to put an end to that is worth the investment in one of these systems.

Just so everyone knows I'm not a Lennox fan boy. They are the only ones I've got a quote for so far. I was just really impressed on the type of features you can get now a days with these systems. I plan on having a Carrier dealer come by as well as a Trane dealer. I think I've narrowed it down to these three: Lennox Signature/Carrier Infinity/Trane XL20i Definitely would like to get the VS compressor/VS air handler cause I like the added benefit of maintaining a constant temperature while simultaneously being efficient. Unfortunately the Lennox VS unit still is going to run me over $13k!!!!!!!!

I also agree with alot of you guys who say it may not benefit to buy the most efficient unit. That does make sense. I'd only really be running this thing at its max output for 8-10 weeks. Outside of those weeks it would just be cruising along barely above idle easily (I'm sure) maintaining 70ish degrees which is what ambient air typically is. But having a nice system for those 8 to 10 weeks where its in the 80's to mid 90's and 85% to 100% humidity would be a god send.

Looking forward to what the Carrier and Trane guys have to say. If I can get a VS compressor/air handler unit for around $10k that's probably going to be the system I choose.

Steve

 

[DHCrocks]

I think the benefit of a variable speed compressor is worth the extra dollars. We upgraded from a 12seer single stage Rheem to a 24seer iQdrive Maytag and it's much quieter and comfortable. Even if the unit is oversized since it throttles down humidity will not be an issue. I think it can go down to 40% or upto 118% of capacity. When it runs at the lower speeds its very quiet and maintains a more consistent temperature in the house. the higher seer unit is also using about 150-200 KWh per month less then the previous unit. it was $11k for the install using existing ducts for a reference point. The unit, air handler, new copper line set and UV sterilizer was included.

If you can swing it get a variable speed over a single or two stage compressor. At the very least I would suggest a two stage.

 

[Vernon29RW]

Thanks for the input. We live in much different climates though. What you're used to (weather) year round we only experience it maybe 3 or 4 months a year. The savings you see from using an ultra high efficiency unit year round would probably take me 10-15 years to see the same effects. I definitely am going to purchase a dual stage unit cause I like the ability to control the humidity which is my main cause of discomfort here on the east coast. I just need to find a good balance between affordability and reliability. Trane, Carrier and Lennox are the ones that keep popping up in my research on the internet that are highly recommended.

Steve

 

[yeldogt]

You have to understand that a unit installed in an attic is going to be in a hostile environment -- it is not going to give you the efficiencies that a unit installed within the buildings insulated envelope would provide. If you were doing a new build the attic roof rafters would be insulated and the unit would be protected.

You have to make sure that no corners are cut with the installation -- and everything must be insulated and sealed.

That is why I am taking mine out and gong a different route.

 

[pseudorealityx]

Make that south EASTERN quarter of the country. Not worth it north of the Mason-Dixon line.

I disagree. But I'm not talking about the financial benefit, although I bet it's still not terrible depending on what your electrical cost is. What I'm talking about is the ability to have longer run times, and therefore handle humidity better than a constant speed system.

Example.... St. Louis is quite humid. Average relative humidity levels over 60% for the entire cooling season. Also...they see spikes when temperatures can fly past 100. That's where having a unit that can run at half speed when it's 82 and humid outside, and then be able to handle the extremes is a nice benefit.