Having trouble with brick veneer

[JamesW84]

I'm putting brick veneer on the front of my shop for the 32" sections around my doors (only 4 ft up). I've watched videos, and got it about half done, but I've spent an ungodly amount of hours. The bricks that are on there don't move and I can't pull them off, but I'm literally getting about 4 bricks per hour that actually stick on the wall.

I've heard of spec mix, but I don't have anyone around here with it. I'm using premixed mortar mix from Menards (just add water).

I used lath w/ scratch coat of mortar (DIY rain screen behind that). I then buttered the bricks and put them on the wall. I'd have to hold them for 2-3 min each to get them to stay. About 1/3 end of coming off while working due to moving them with the level or something.

The manufacturer has videos (Royal Thinbrick) that shows smearing the mortar and then grooving w/ a grooved trowel. I've tried that, but my mortar isn't like peanut butter. I've tried more water, less water, 100% Sika bonding agent in lieu of water; all end up with either too wet mortar that falls off the wall or it chunks off when I groove it. I mix it in the mixing pan with my trowel.

I don't like giving up, but I hate doing this and at this pace, I've got about 18-20 more hours of it.

I've thought about using construction adhesive.

Any thoughts?

 

[manwithtools]

Type S mortar and sand, mix your own. 1 part mortar to 3 parts mason sand. Need to get the right consistency so it spreads smoothly. Try wetting your brick veneer with water as well while waiting to place it on the wall, don;t need to soak it, just keep it moist.

 

[joes169]

I've laid thousands of thin brick, similar to what the "Royal" ones consist of. There's nothing inherently wrong with the mesh/scratchcoat method, but it's hard to get flat enough for thinbrick IMO. Lath/scratchcaot is much better suited for thinstone, where an unflat substrate actually adds to the stones' texture. For brick, I prefer tile backer board, taped seams, thinset over screw holes and tape, and then air & water barrier. Thinset over the air barrier when dry, and back butter the brick. Almost impossible to remove a brick by hand 30 minutes after they're set.

Since you already have a rough plaster coat, I'd simply do this:

- Get a decent modified thinset that's meant for exterior use. Mix about 15-20% thinset in with each batch of mortar. Typical pre-mix mortars our one step above garbage IMO, other than "Specmix" brand, and I've even had a few issues with that stuff.

- You need to machine mix the mortar somehow, a drill with a mixing paddle (I like the "egg-beater" style myself) at minimum. You can't thoroughly mix by hand as well as with some kind of mechanical form of mixing. It will never get as creamy or the ample amount of air into it.

- With the thinset, you probably won't need any bonding agent/admixture.

- Either snap height lines on the wall ahead with a chalk line, or hang a dry line with line blocks or something off of the corners. Or, at least, level lines up above. We typically snap every 3 courses and can "eyeball" the other 2 close enough. You don't want to be leveling the brick, as they should be sticking to the wall almost instantly. Once they're set, moving is only asking for problems as you'll be breaking the bond with the wall.

- Dry-lay all your cuts ahead of time. Each pier should have the same cuts from the top to bottom. Start with the jambs and work towards the middle. If you lay one of the middle brick last, you have 2 joints that you can "cheat" on instead of just one.

I went back and watched the install video for the Royal thinbrick, and can guarantee you that they're sticking all their brick on with a good quality thinset, not plain mortar. Even their scratchcoat is a modified thinset.

Good Luck!

 

[kbs2244]

laying brick is part science, part art.
teaching an art is not a DIY project
for a good result, call a pro.
this sounds like a Sat job.

 

[JamesW84]

laying brick is part science, part art.
teaching an art is not a DIY project
for a good result, call a pro.
this sounds like a Sat job.

A lot of things are part art and part science, but you'll never learn anything if you don't try.

I've done pavers w/ mortar over brick steps, replaced bricks, and done a tile backsplash, but none were as bad as this.

I got a different type s mortar mix (didn't have lime at the store or I was gonna mix my own). I got some modified thinset and used a drill to mix it...27 lbs total. It was creamy and fluffy at first, but quickly lost those characteristics. I've been spraying water on the bricks and the substrate since the beginning.

I wish I knew what a pro would charge, but I don't want to bother them for such a small project. Literally I probably have 20 sq ft left (1/2 done).

I think I need to just make smaller batches of mortar and **** it up. If I had to do it over again, I think I'd use clipstone or similar or maybe just metal.

Thanks for the help.

 

[joes169]

A lot of things are part art and part science, but you'll never learn anything if you don't try.

I've done pavers w/ mortar over brick steps, replaced bricks, and done a tile backsplash, but none were as bad as this.

I got a different type s mortar mix (didn't have lime at the store or I was gonna mix my own). I got some modified thinset and used a drill to mix it...27 lbs total. It was creamy and fluffy at first, but quickly lost those characteristics. I've been spraying water on the bricks and the substrate since the beginning.

I wish I knew what a pro would charge, but I don't want to bother them for such a small project. Literally I probably have 20 sq ft left (1/2 done).

I think I need to just make smaller batches of mortar and **** it up. If I had to do it over again, I think I'd use clipstone or similar or maybe just metal.

Thanks for the help.

That's way too much mortar to mix at once fro thin brick, especially for a novice that's working alone. A couple more pointers that might help you out:

- Are you letting the mortar slake when you mix it? Mix it a little on the wet side, let it sit for 5 minutes to allow all of the cementitious material to hydrate, and then mix it up again. Adjust water as necessary at this point. Mortars can flash over pretty quick in the first few minutes, but the should mellow out for a while.

- Mortar isn't the same as concrete. Mix it wetter than you think you should. In solid, full depth masonry construction, the industry standard is the mix mortar as wet as possible, just barely stiff enough to support the material you're laying. Where concrete loses compressive strength with additional water, mortar tends to gain adhesion with additional water, which is a good thing. Did you notice how wet the thinset was in the Royal instructional video?

- Thinset tends to "false set" more than any standard mortar, meaning it seams like it's setting when it's just sticking together and settling in between use. You can usually whip it up quickly by hand or the drill to return it to consistency. Adding an ounce or 2 of water won't hurt either. I'm currently in the middle of 500 sq. feet of a relatively complex thin stone veneer job, and we probably temper a pail of similar mortar/thinset 4-5 times before it's gone.

- You shouldn't be having any issue spreading mud on the back of the brick, but if you are, maybe you're letting them sit too long before laying? On decent sized thin brick jobs, I usually have 1 guy buttering brick and another sticking them to the wall. The brick we usually use are extremely porous and **** the moisture out of the mud fast. We try to get them on the wall within 15-20 seconds, and if we can't we scrape them back off. If you need more time, you could probably soak the brick ahead of time.

- If your having most of the trouble with the wall sucking the moisture out, don't be afraid to get it completely saturated ahead. I'm not sure this is really an issue though, either, if you were having to hold the brick on the wall for 3-5 minutes before?

Good Luck.

 

[txvwnut]

I used thin brick on my shop and did the mortar scratch coat on the first six feet up. I had the same issue as the op in getting the brick to set so I could continue on to the next. After I cleared the the height of the scratch coat I switched to buttering the brick heavily and adhering it straight to the lath. This turned out to be the best way to do it as the fresh mortar would squeeze around the lath and hold the brick in place instantly, plus I got added advantage of mortar squeezing out around the brick which allowed me to tool the grout joint in basically one step. My brother who’s been in the masonry industry for 40 years saw how I was doing it and said, well that’s not actually how it’s supposed to be done but it looks to be working. Then he spouted about the reason for the scratch coat and I replied get on the scaffold then. He quickly left as he remembered he had something to do. My bricks have been up for seventeen years now and they are still as tight as the day I stuck them on the wall.