Head Spinning Over Lighting Upgrade, Opinions?

[SpiderDave]

I've been researching lighting off/on for months now, to replace the F96T12's in my shop. I have a target, and then the more I learn the less I know. I read a couple of posts on lighting, and one in particular was confusing and lacking in laymans on the lumens, for dummies like me if yuh know what I mean? I get parts of it, then get overwhelmed and spend more time researching to decipher some of the lingo and I end up discouraged. I'm hoping some of you might step in and help me get my head around this, or point me in the right direction in what lights to consider?

I have a 40' x 50' area to upgrade the lights (fixtures) and ballasts as they're fading to replacement status. They're 32 + yrs old F96T12/HO fixtures with 100w bulbs x 2. Each bulb is rated at 8,800 lumens (new), 7,650 mean lumens (lumens at 1/2 their lifespan), 4,100k and a nasty 62 CRI rating.

I thought about going to T8 or T5 Fluorescent lamps, but I'm also considering the LED's as well. My current fixtures are about 12ft up. I was thinking high bays with 6 lamps would be a good match to keep the same estimated lumen levels I have now. And that's where part of my problem is.

Florescent bulbs are easier because the lumens are higher and easier to maintain the same lumens I have now. I read that lumens on LED's are measured differently due to their light being more focused,.. is this true? How does this work? Even if I get two 8' LED tube lights for my fixtures, the lumens will be much less and harsh to the eyes. The good options are in T8/T5 lamps. I have found that a 6 lamp High Bay will put out the same or equal lumens to what I have now, with the right bulbs in it. But I don't really see much if any in savings when I add up the watts required. Though it would be nice not having to worry about finding T12 bulbs later that're out of production. I hear people talking about how their power bill went down noticeably? Did they lose light levels by accomplishing this? I have to have something wrong somewhere. I see shops on here that look bright, and they don't have as many fixtures as I would've. I do have to mention my shop is a light sucking abyss of darkness. There are no white walls in the main area, and no chance of having any except in my main work area. My equipment absorbs a lot of light, supplies, pallet racking etc. So what ever I get it needs to be efficient & bright.

6 lamp high bays are what sound good to me, but I'd consider 4 or 2 lamp units in order to spread light out and have less shadows too. I'm open to suggestions if it adds up.

Another issue for me, which I'll get some eyeball rolls over and that's okay,.. is that too much blue & mostly the flicker / strobe effect gives me migraines and blotches in my vision. LED's are like a welding arc to me. They leave blind spots in my eyes even when I'm not looking at them. It's like when some of us were kids playing with flashlights in a dark room with friends, making cool lines and dots in your eyes - back when flashlights were considered cool that is. For me it does that in daytime. I've been living with it my whole life so I don't dwell on it or think about it until I break out into a full body tsunami sweat and have to step outside. Fluorescents have a similar effect, but not usually as bad or as quick as LED's. It feels silly talking about it. I usually avoid it for that reason. But since my lights are slowly going out and I need to upgrade soon, I have a chance to do something about it. It's actually a common condition and sort of a mild form of epilepsy sensitivity to certain hertz blah blah blah...

I've found flicker free T8 LED's with CRI 95 with anywhere from 2500 to 6000 kelvin ratings, but they cost an arm and a leg. Unless someone knows of a cheaper alternative? One of the best I've found is $139 for a 4 pak,.. and Nooo Thanks! I think if I had a high 80-85-90+ CRI I and something like 4000k or even 5000k in the right situation I could live with it to have good lighting. My ceiling's white, I would even consider pointing it upwards to avoid the glare and have indirect lighting as I have with a few others already, but that would take even more lights, right?

So in a nut shell, I'm trying to figure out if my logic of matching up CFL lumens to LED lumen's is a straight forward process, or a different one? I'm fine going with T5-T8's, but I'm open to options if it saves electricity. Has anyone had light quality issues and found something they could live with? I've read here that there are unlimited cheap badly rated inaccurate fixtures ballast combinations and bulbs to steer clear of, but I have very little idea how to do that and none of the links worked for me. What are some great fixtures and bulbs to check out? (and maybe why?) It just can't be this hard, can it? Please don't be shy setting me straight in a way I can grasp it, that's why I'm here asking you.

Either way, thanks in advance and have a good one everybody!

 

[cybrdyke]

It's possible that you've over researched it. There's a lot to unwrap here, so I'll do my best.
Lumens
Flourescent lamps emit light in a 360 degree beam that is cylinder shaped around the length of the lamp. Not all of that light hits the target. For instance, your ballast only runs at 90%, not 100%. The fixture is only about 75% efficient, meaning that 25% of your lumens get lost inside the fixture. The T12HO lamp fades over time, too. So when you take that all into account, you only get about 4500 lumens delivered to the target per tube.
An LED equivalent doesnt use a ballast, doesn't have a 360 degree beam, and doesn't lose any light inside the fixture. So, an LED replacement for your two lamp fixture only needs to be around 9000 lumens total. Replacement tubes for 8' HO lamps are not common. They're out there, but they're not mainstream, and so they carry a premium price. Forget about using anything in the 90 CRI range, because it adds significantly to the cost. Standard product will be in the 80's, which is a significant improvement over your T12's.
Flicker
Non-visible flicker is a real thing. Most people are not affected by it. Others are by widely varying degrees. It's always been around. All light sources have some degree of flicker. There is no rhyme or reason as to how any certain product is going to affect you. If it's going to be debilitating to you, then you can look for flicker-free products. You'll stand a better chance of getting a good product if you look for new LED integrated fixtures rather than LED tubes. If it's just the exposed LED "dots" that bothers you, then a good frosted product will be helpful.
Color
To most, anything over 5000K is un-naturally blue. But color preference is strictly your choice. There is no right or wrong here. 4000K or 5000K are the most common. If you think about replacements in the future, these will always be around.
Conclusion
The size of your space is pretty common. If I recall, there are plenty of folks here who have the same size and have used a bunch of different solutions. Check out the sticky threads in this forum for that information. You should determine how much light you want rather than worry about lumens too much. You do this by determining how you will be using your space. Is it going to be a professional auto shop? About 75 foot-candles would be great. Hobby shop? About 50. Storing cars? About 20.
Once you know your target foot candles, decide what style of fixture you want. Round? Square? Linear? Recessed? Suspended? Surface mount?
Now you can get someone to do a layout for you to determine how many fixtures you need and how they should be spaced.
I hope that helps. If I missed anything just reply back.
Good luck,
CD

 

[BillK]

Dave,
There have been countless posts on this subject. My machine shop is 30x60 with about 15' high roof trusses. There are 6 two bulb 8ft fixtures in the building. I switched from the F96T-12s to led tubes about a year ago and am very pleased with them. I chose that route because of two reasons.

1. My fixtures are all wired with emt and I really did not want to change that.
2. I dont like the idea of "sealed" fixtures without replaceable tubes because chances are pretty good that in 5 years when one of them fails I will not be able to find the exact replacement and will have an oddball fixture which would drive me crazy

These are the tubes I used:

Keystone KT-LED43T8-96G-850-D 43W 8 Foot Single Pin LED T8 5000K 10/Case

Premier# LT88FT50K43WG-K Keystone KT-LED43T8-96G-850-D - 10/Case

ledt8bulb.com

I bought them from a local supply house for the same price. They are ballast bypass so you take the ballasts out. After the first one they took me about 10 minutes per fixture to change them.

I tried one of the 6 lamp T-5 High Bays and was not happy with it. The light was too concentrated. How many tubes do you have now ? I have 6 two tube fixtures. Two rows of three.

Dont pay a lot of attention to the lumen ratings. I figured out there is no good way to compare them from fluorescent to led. I will assure you that these lamps are a lot brighter than the T-12 HO's ever thought about being.

The attached pic should give you some idea of the light.

 

[yatg]

If your fixtures are typical, the long rectangle box style, you can convert them to 4' tubes. That will give you more options and tubes will be easier to source.

Retrofit Conversion Kit for 8' 2 Bulb Strip Fixture to 4' T8 4 Lamp LED Fixture Bracket Retrofit Kit - Complete Set Includes Plates, Non-Shunted Sockets, and Screws (1-Kit) - - Amazon.com

Retrofit Conversion Kit for 8' 2 Bulb Strip Fixture to 4' T8 4 Lamp LED Fixture Bracket Retrofit Kit - Complete Set Includes Plates, Non-Shunted Sockets, and Screws (1-Kit) - - Amazon.com

www.amazon.com

 

[SpiderDave]

It's possible that you've over researched it. There's a lot to unwrap here, so I'll do my best.
Lumens
Flourescent lamps emit light in a 360 degree beam that is cylinder shaped around the length of the lamp. Not all of that light hits the target. For instance, your ballast only runs at 90%, not 100%. The fixture is only about 75% efficient, meaning that 25% of your lumens get lost inside the fixture. The T12HO lamp fades over time, too. So when you take that all into account, you only get about 4500 lumens delivered to the target per tube.
An LED equivalent doesnt use a ballast, doesn't have a 360 degree beam, and doesn't lose any light inside the fixture. So, an LED replacement for your two lamp fixture only needs to be around 9000 lumens total. Replacement tubes for 8' HO lamps are not common. They're out there, but they're not mainstream, and so they carry a premium price. Forget about using anything in the 90 CRI range, because it adds significantly to the cost. Standard product will be in the 80's, which is a significant improvement over your T12's.
Flicker
Non-visible flicker is a real thing. Most people are not affected by it. Others are by widely varying degrees. It's always been around. All light sources have some degree of flicker. There is no rhyme or reason as to how any certain product is going to affect you. If it's going to be debilitating to you, then you can look for flicker-free products. You'll stand a better chance of getting a good product if you look for new LED integrated fixtures rather than LED tubes. If it's just the exposed LED "dots" that bothers you, then a good frosted product will be helpful.
Color
To most, anything over 5000K is un-naturally blue. But color preference is strictly your choice. There is no right or wrong here. 4000K or 5000K are the most common. If you think about replacements in the future, these will always be around.
Conclusion
The size of your space is pretty common. If I recall, there are plenty of folks here who have the same size and have used a bunch of different solutions. Check out the sticky threads in this forum.

Great replies thank you all!

cbrdyke, that makes sense,.. my over researching it. That was starting to be my conclusion too, but couldn't confirm it until now. Lots of excellent information there that I DO understand - appreciate it. Time to figure out what a sticky is though. I'm old and dated, didn't even get on a computer own a cel phone until 7-8 yrs ago. No reason, just slow getting around to it,.. learning. I tried many times to look this up here before posting, but didn't find what I needed and got to the point of finally breaking down and asking. Glad I did, but I'll keep trying to find what I'm assuming I must've missed. You wouldn't guess it by my lengthy post, but my time in front of a screen's limited so research isn't as quick as asking. I learn far more and quickly by interacting with others than wondering the digital jungle looking for answers.

I understand determining how your space will be used, that's smart. But aren't lumens how you would determine the volume of light you need for that space when you do? I'm going to follow the lead you all have suggested in not worrying about lumens so much, so I'm not arguing. Just curious of your answer to understand more thoroughly incase I need to explain it myself one day.

Thanks for taking the time to lay that all out for me, great place.

 

[SpiderDave]

Dave,
There have been countless posts on this subject. My machine shop is 30x60 with about 15' high roof trusses. There are 6 two bulb 8ft fixtures in the building. I switched from the F96T-12s to led tubes about a year ago and am very pleased with them. I chose that route because of two reasons.

1. My fixtures are all wired with emt and I really did not want to change that.
2. I dont like the idea of "sealed" fixtures without replaceable tubes because chances are pretty good that in 5 years when one of them fails I will not be able to find the exact replacement and will have an oddball fixture which would drive me crazy

These are the tubes I used:

Keystone KT-LED43T8-96G-850-D 43W 8 Foot Single Pin LED T8 5000K 10/Case

Premier# LT88FT50K43WG-K Keystone KT-LED43T8-96G-850-D - 10/Case

ledt8bulb.com

I bought them from a local supply house for the same price. They are ballast bypass so you take the ballasts out. After the first one they took me about 10 minutes per fixture to change them.

I tried one of the 6 lamp T-5 High Bays and was not happy with it. The light was too concentrated. How many tubes do you have now ? I have 6 two tube fixtures. Two rows of three.

Dont pay a lot of attention to the lumen ratings. I figured out there is no good way to compare them from fluorescent to led. I will assure you that these lamps are a lot brighter than the T-12 HO's ever thought about being.

The attached pic should give you some idea of the light.

BIIIK, I have 8 double bulb T12 8 footers with R17d ends, and it's just enough to over come the glare spots so I can still see. Plus my eyes aren't taking light in like they used to, because of it - vicious circle. I was looking at these bulbs actually! I still have the page up and a pak in cart to keep track of what I found. Thanks for the suggestion!! That pic says a lot, gives me a great feel for what my results would be. Knowing they'll put out more light is encouraging. My worry was not being able to find them down the road. If I don't go with the 4 footers, I'll be going this route for sure now. Thanks for mentioning the 6 lamp High Bay being too intense, I was wondering the same thing... I'll be avoiding them now. Saved me a lot of trouble, thanks.

 

[SpiderDave]

If your fixtures are typical, the long rectangle box style, you can convert them to 4' tubes. That will give you more options and tubes will be easier to source.

Retrofit Conversion Kit for 8' 2 Bulb Strip Fixture to 4' T8 4 Lamp LED Fixture Bracket Retrofit Kit - Complete Set Includes Plates, Non-Shunted Sockets, and Screws (1-Kit) - - Amazon.com

Retrofit Conversion Kit for 8' 2 Bulb Strip Fixture to 4' T8 4 Lamp LED Fixture Bracket Retrofit Kit - Complete Set Includes Plates, Non-Shunted Sockets, and Screws (1-Kit) - - Amazon.com

www.amazon.com

Perfect! I put these in my Amazon cart to keep track of them incase I go with the 4 footers, thanks yatg! Great idea that'll save $'s too.

 

[cybrdyke]

I understand determining how your space will be used, that's smart. But aren't lumens how you would determine the volume of light you need for that space when you do?

Lumens only tells you how much light is created by your light source. It doesn't tell you much about where that light goes or what it falls upon. You would probably be more comfortable thinking about it this way....Saying "A 100w light bulb is brighter than a 60w light bulb." is the same as saying "A 1500 lumen light bulb is brighter than an 850 lumen light bulb". But neither of these statements tells you how much light you NEED. Quantities of light required in a space is measured in foot-candles and has little to do with the lumens created by a source. It has more to do with where those lumens are located, where they are directed to, what surfaces they bounce off, and what the main goal of the space is.
So, how do you intend to use this space?
CD

 

[cybrdyke]

BIIIK, I have 8 double bulb T12 8 footers with R17d ends, and it's just enough to over come the glare spots so I can still see. Plus my eyes aren't taking light in like they used to, because of it - vicious circle. I was looking at these bulbs actually! I still have the page up and a pak in cart to keep track of what I found. Thanks for the suggestion!! That pic says a lot, gives me a great feel for what my results would be. Knowing they'll put out more light is encouraging. My worry was not being able to find them down the road. If I don't go with the 4 footers, I'll be going this route for sure now. Thanks for mentioning the 6 lamp High Bay being too intense, I was wondering the same thing... I'll be avoiding them now. Saved me a lot of trouble, thanks.

Responders are confusing your lamps with theirs. Yours, as you've stated, are F96T12HO with R17D (recessed double contact) end caps. Theirs are F96T12 with single-pin contacts. There is a HUGE difference between them and there is also a huge difference in your options to replace them.
CD

 

[u2slow]

I've got my lighting whittled down to used/free 48"-tube fixtures than I can use as-is or retrofit to led easy.

May add a few of those ufo-style LED highbays if I ever get to up to the 19' ceiling again. Lol

 

[BillK]

Responders are confusing your lamps with theirs. Yours, as you've stated, are F96T12HO with R17D (recessed double contact) end caps. Theirs are F96T12 with single-pin contacts. There is a HUGE difference between them and there is also a huge difference in your options to replace them.
CD

The ones that I got are available both ways. I had no problem sourcing them. Personally I dont see why you would want to change them to the 4ft tubes. Looks like a lot of extra work to me ??? The 8ft ones are available everywhere. My local supply house had them in stock in both types and in both 4000k and 5000k

 

[SpiderDave]

Lumens only tells you how much light is created by your light source. It doesn't tell you much about where that light goes or what it falls upon. You would probably be more comfortable thinking about it this way....Saying "A 100w light bulb is brighter than a 60w light bulb." is the same as saying "A 1500 lumen light bulb is brighter than an 850 lumen light bulb". But neither of these statements tells you how much light you NEED. Quantities of light required in a space is measured in foot-candles and has little to do with the lumens created by a source. It has more to do with where those lumens are located, where they are directed to, what surfaces they bounce off, and what the main goal of the space is.
So, how do you intend to use this space?
CD

Okay, the light bulb has clicked on and it's making sense to me now! My apologies if you feel like you're repeating yourself in different variations, but I am actually getting my head around this now so your efforts are not futile, I promise. Thank you all!

My space is a mix, lots of tools on the main floor like BIIIK's candy store pic. The other half is pallet racking & supplies. The pallet racks create a lot of deep shadows, plus the dark areas between shelves when combing through them. I typically keep a flashlight in my pocket for that reason - gets old when I have to go searching for it. So I've picked up a few motion flood lights that I pig tailed and hung up so when I go through them, it helps out. And the machines, I just need decent light so I pay attention, stay alert. It doesn't need to be super bright in that area, but I'm not opposed. Most of my work is done in a separate fabrication room that I keep very well lit with the option of less or more lights, as needed. Very handy for paint and the more precision stuff where my eye->hand is critical. There's a workbench on the other end that's well lit up. I have halogen spring arm lamps that pull away from the wall if I need more. Keeps me warm in the winter. My phone's having update issues or I'd take some snap shots for a better sense of things - sorry about that.

This may or may not be a good idea: One thing that appealed to me on the LED's was how they're more friendly to being turned on and off, unlike fluorescents. I'd considered putting motion sensors on the main open area. That would take some getting use to, but once I found the sweet spots it might be a plus saving some $'s not constantly running 6-8 lamps, over time? IDK, just a thought. I really like the lights on, but I often don't go out there for hours at a time when I'm working. Just something I'd considered with utility prices are on the rise - every little bit kinda thinkin'.

I don't need to be precise as I can always add more, but is there a general rule to figure the foot candles?

 

[SpiderDave]

I've got my lighting whittled down to used/free 48"-tube fixtures than I can use as-is or retrofit to led easy.

May add a few of those ufo-style LED highbays if I ever get to up to the 19' ceiling again. Lol

I've been eyeballing 48" fixtures on Craig's List, fairly cheap and wouldn't need the ballast if I went LED. They used to be free all the time, not so much lately. Ya, I saw those UFO lights, I like the idea! I was thinking the same thing about having one or two up high someday just to see what it would do?

 

[SpiderDave]

The ones that I got are available both ways. I had no problem sourcing them. Personally I dont see why you would want to change them to the 4ft tubes. Looks like a lot of extra work to me ??? The 8ft ones are available everywhere. My local supply house had them in stock in both types and in both 4000k and 5000k

The number one reason for looking at 4ft over 8ft, is finding one that's flicker free. I've yet to find one in 8ft.

When I started out, I couldn't find the 8 footers in a ratings range I could live with. I was being more critical of the CRI's and Kelvin ratings for fear of making poor financial choices on something I know very little about. The testimonials here have been changing that. Mainly because the 4 ft tubes had no flicker options and the best rating options for the quality of light I was after, but the prices have discouraged that to some degree. Plus, smaller fixtures could be spread out to avoid shadows and dark spots. The 4ft has become the go-to size, so I was considering how available they be down the road when replacements are due. I was in Bldg Maint for 38 yrs and got to see a pattern of things that came and went,.. lights included.

I'm considering a mix of both. 8ft in the main area, and 4ft in the work spaces. That might give me a better idea what I want down the road if I can find flicker free in both. Right now it's about which brand to trust and light levels to chose? I like those 8' lights you showed me. Got those in a cart to hang onto. I did find some double row 'V' style lights. Have you seen those? Looking at the ratings, they'd be intense at 75w & 9,500 lumens & 6500K each. Too much for me and not flicker free, but I like the idea.

ELEKICO 8FT LED Bulb, 8FT Led Shop Light R17D V Shaped, 8 Foot LED Bulbs 6000K 75W 9500LM, 8 Foot Shop Light, T8/T10/T12 Led Tube Light Replacement, Dual-End Powered Ballast Bypass​

 

[BillK]

The number one reason for looking at 4ft over 8ft, is finding one that's flicker free. I've yet to find one in 8ft.

Intersting. The ones I have certainly do not flicker. It would drive me crazy if they did.

If I were you I would go to a local supply house and buy 2 tubes. You might pay a little bit more than if you bought a box of 10 but you could put them in one fixture and see if you like them. Then make your decision.

 

[cybrdyke]

Intersting. The ones I have certainly do not flicker. It would drive me crazy if they did.

If I were you I would go to a local supply house and buy 2 tubes. You might pay a little bit more than if you bought a box of 10 but you could put them in one fixture and see if you like them. Then make your decision.

The flicker he's talking about is non-visible. It happens at a frequency that's too fast for humans to "see".
CD

 

[SpiderDave]

Intersting. The ones I have certainly do not flicker. It would drive me crazy if they did.

If I were you I would go to a local supply house and buy 2 tubes. You might pay a little bit more than if you bought a box of 10 but you could put them in one fixture and see if you like them. Then make your decision.

I think that's a great idea and likely what I'll do first.

In-depth studies have been done over the years. Many of the lighting companies are developing better and cheaper drivers for constant current to change flicker rates.

My brother / Colonel in the Air Force made me aware of the flicker free lighting when he mentioned the military addressed it years ago upgraded equipment. As well as the Navy Ships and Subs, especially in low lit spaces. So it's a legit thing. I researched it a time back, the number of people affected surprised me - even those unaware. It's my understanding that when CFL's were first introduced, problems rose in high enough numbers that changes were made to accommodate. Mostly in offices and factories which gave way to positive results. Not so much the flicker, but the CRI & Kelvin ratings were subject to changes. Like they've done with LED lighting.

I hate it and it seems silly, but it's becoming less of a choice for me as I'm getting older and more frustrated with me eyes - good of time as any I say. It's like being allergic to food you really wish to enjoy, or being defective compared to most people. If nothing changes, then at least I tried and know more. I think most of the problems would be for office working people that had to focus for long periods of time.

For me, lower quality LED's leave fading freeze frame trail. It's annoying,.. like some kind of visual tinnitus. The next time you're sitting in traffic at night with those red LED brake lights facing you. Try darting your eyes all around real fast. See that image trail of rapid red dots crossing your vision while you're doing it? Like an LED flashlight on a fan blade at certain speeds. Incandescent bulbs don't really create a trail of dots, just a streak. LED's cycle rate creates the dot trails like a shutter effect. The faster rates, the less likely you'll consciously see it. Even when you can't, there are those who have reactions like eye strain and migraines. Most people are fine while for others it's real enough the body has a reaction. But then, I guess who's to say where all that came from if you couldn't tell the difference in the first place.

If you want to see whether certain LED lights strobe or not, if you have an IPhone, take a steady handed 30-45 second cel phone video in slow-mo mode and then watch it through. Certain angles show much more than others. It's neat to check out for curiosity's sake.

I only replied with all that because I think it's interesting, that's all. Perhaps others have already dozed off and never made it this far. HArr harr! To each his own. I'm giving flicker free a try with few bulbs like you said and go form there. I'm not gona worry about too much this time around, it's overwhelming. Anything's an improvement over what I have now. I'll see about getting before and after pics of the results.

 

[BillK]

The flicker he's talking about is non-visible. It happens at a frequency that's too fast for humans to "see".

I know what you are talking about. The guys in the business nxt to me put a bunch of led fixtures in their warehouse and it almost hurts my eyes and makes me "woozy" when I go over there. I still think the op should buy a few lights and see how they work. Then he will know for sure. Mine have a frosted tube and that might help. The guys next door have all exposed leds and it bothers my eyes

 

[cybrdyke]

I think that's a great idea and likely what I'll do first.

In-depth studies have been done over the years. Many of the lighting companies are developing better and cheaper drivers for constant current to change flicker rates.

My brother / Colonel in the Air Force made me aware of the flicker free lighting when he mentioned the military addressed it years ago upgraded equipment. As well as the Navy Ships and Subs, especially in low lit spaces. So it's a legit thing. I researched it a time back, the number of people affected surprised me - even those unaware. It's my understanding that when CFL's were first introduced, problems rose in high enough numbers that changes were made to accommodate. Mostly in offices and factories which gave way to positive results. Not so much the flicker, but the CRI & Kelvin ratings were subject to changes. Like they've done with LED lighting.

I hate it and it seems silly, but it's becoming less of a choice for me as I'm getting older and more frustrated with me eyes - good of time as any I say. It's like being allergic to food you really wish to enjoy, or being defective compared to most people. If nothing changes, then at least I tried and know more. I think most of the problems would be for office working people that had to focus for long periods of time.

For me, lower quality LED's leave fading freeze frame trail. It's annoying,.. like some kind of visual tinnitus. The next time you're sitting in traffic at night with those red LED brake lights facing you. Try darting your eyes all around real fast. See that image trail of rapid red dots crossing your vision while you're doing it? Like an LED flashlight on a fan blade at certain speeds. Incandescent bulbs don't really create a trail of dots, just a streak. LED's cycle rate creates the dot trails like a shutter effect. The faster rates, the less likely you'll consciously see it. Even when you can't, there are those who have reactions like eye strain and migraines. Most people are fine while for others it's real enough the body has a reaction. But then, I guess who's to say where all that came from if you couldn't tell the difference in the first place.

If you want to see whether certain LED lights strobe or not, if you have an IPhone, take a steady handed 30-45 second cel phone video in slow-mo mode and then watch it through. Certain angles show much more than others. It's neat to check out for curiosity's sake.

I only replied with all that because I think it's interesting, that's all. Perhaps others have already dozed off and never made it this far. HArr harr! To each his own. I'm giving flicker free a try with few bulbs like you said and go form there. I'm not gona worry about too much this time around, it's overwhelming. Anything's an improvement over what I have now. I'll see about getting before and after pics of the results.

https://nunvdata.unvlt.com/uploads/Low_Flicker_Type_B.pdf
If you have a look at this spec sheet, you'll notice that it says "low flicker operation. meets all IEEE recommended practices". This is what you should look for in the specs of whatever you end up buying. IEEE has set the standard for what low flicker means. If you buy something with this language in the spec sheet, then you wont have to do trial and error.
I can tell you that no electrical supply house stocks these. They only keep the mainstream fast movers in stock and they're not concerned about flicker. In fact, they dont even know about it. If you ask them about it, you'll get a blank stare.
You can get low flicker LED tubes from companies like Universal (in the link), Sylvania, Energy Focus and a few others. They'll cost you a few bucks more. 99% of the tubes that are produced are NOT low flicker. You would have to tell the supply house exactly which model you want to buy. For instance, from Universal you would ask for T8LACD4F14LF/840B25EC.

If you want to see whether certain LED lights strobe or not, if you have an IPhone, take a steady handed 30-45 second cel phone video in slow-mo mode and then watch it through.
This is pretty unreliable. Problem is that it doesn't tell you what the flicker rate is or if it's within a range that's bad for your brain or not. All light sources flicker. Incandescent flickers, fluorescent flickers, LED flickers. So this test doesn't really tell you much.
CD

 

[SpiderDave]

https://nunvdata.unvlt.com/uploads/Low_Flicker_Type_B.pdf
If you have a look at this spec sheet, you'll notice that it says "low flicker operation. meets all IEEE recommended practices". This is what you should look for in the specs of whatever you end up buying. IEEE has set the standard for what low flicker means. If you buy something with this language in the spec sheet, then you wont have to do trial and error.
I can tell you that no electrical supply house stocks these. They only keep the mainstream fast movers in stock and they're not concerned about flicker. In fact, they dont even know about it. If you ask them about it, you'll get a blank stare.
You can get low flicker LED tubes from companies like Universal (in the link), Sylvania, Energy Focus and a few others. They'll cost you a few bucks more. 99% of the tubes that are produced are NOT low flicker. You would have to tell the supply house exactly which model you want to buy. For instance, from Universal you would ask for T8LACD4F14LF/840B25EC.

If you want to see whether certain LED lights strobe or not, if you have an IPhone, take a steady handed 30-45 second cel phone video in slow-mo mode and then watch it through.
This is pretty unreliable. Problem is that it doesn't tell you what the flicker rate is or if it's within a range that's bad for your brain or not. All light sources flicker. Incandescent flickers, fluorescent flickers, LED flickers. So this test doesn't really tell you much.
CD

cyberdyke; This is pretty unreliable. Problem is that it doesn't tell you what the flicker rate is or if it's within a range that's bad for your brain or not.

You're right but my intention wasn't to measure it. The IPhone slow-mo suggestion, was just basic entry level test that more people might have access to, to verify it's there or not. Like the difference between testing for current in an automobile with a light pen, vs using meter to get an actual reading. The IPhone's just a light pen in this example. That's why I worded it as, "to see whether certain LED lights strobe or not" and " It's neat to check out for curiosity's sake."

==========

Here's a demo video I found of that phone test if anyone's interested. I like that they even included a clock with a second hand:

And this really short demo of tube lights:

If a person wanted to take their curiosity further, there are phone apps for measuring and meters available too. They available for a reason. It's required in the film industry becasue of LED's and interference of ******* speeds. Also companies that require tests of lighting in labs.

I read there's a steady current driver in the works by competing LED manufacturers for the best absolute zero flicker light - who knows when. For now, all lights flicker. It's just a matter of how rapid/slow and to what level or degree? It's not always perceptible to the human eye, but it's been shown that some do see it, especially where you get into slower and contrasting stroboscopic rates 120hz and under. The eyes and skin are the ones that relay that information to the brain, to have a reaction. Computer screens went through evolution on this subject too. Hence the IEEE ratings and acknowledgment mentioned earlier. That's not to say anyone's shop lights are junk or someone's senses are faulty for not being bothered by it. If anything, it means they're more durable, immune, healthy. Like an allergy, some have it others don't and to different degrees for the rest. Just gotta find the right allergy meds, or live with it.

I found articles talking about how in late 2015, IEEE published the first widely-accepted lighting flicker recommendations, largely based on the work of Arnold J Wilkins of the University of Essex. IEEE 1789–2015 is aimed at quantifying lighting flicker and acknowledging the associated health and safety risks. Which we already went through similarly with CFL's and other lights prior. They were not only concerned with flicker frequency, also flicker index and modulation. The IEEE recommendations define high-risk, low-risk, and risk-free flicker characteristics based on these three terms.

I may be wrong, but it's my understanding that low flicker isn't as high of a rate as non or no-flicker is it? I'd considered low flicker, but I'd rather gamble on lights with a much higher cycle rate. I've found some that said flicker free, but they were low flicker and I'd like to find the highest rate possible. I think I read some were around 120,000 cycles per second, as opposed to standard 50 and sometimes 120. It's just matter of confirming those claims and I really don't know what I'm talking about entirely here, which makes it harder to ask. Ha ha!. I know they cost more, but it comes down more to what I can live with on a daily basis and still work under productively. Especially if they only come by the case. I've had to work outside my whole life. Now I'll be inside, so I have to do what I can. I love halogens but don't want to work in an oven with a huge pwr bill.

Thanks everybody for hanging in there, hashing it out and learning together not taking anything personal. Hard to find these days and much appreciated.

 

[SpiderDave]

I know what you are talking about. The guys in the business nxt to me put a bunch of led fixtures in their warehouse and it almost hurts my eyes and makes me "woozy" when I go over there. I still think the op should buy a few lights and see how they work. Then he will know for sure. Mine have a frosted tube and that might help. The guys next door have all exposed leds and it bothers my eyes

Ya, I agree the frosted ones are better. I've seen those clear ones, they're intense.

 

[cybrdyke]

cyberdyke; This is pretty unreliable. Problem is that it doesn't tell you what the flicker rate is or if it's within a range that's bad for your brain or not.

You're right but my intention wasn't to measure it. The IPhone slow-mo suggestion, was just basic entry level test that more people might have access to, to verify it's there or not. Like the difference between testing for current in an automobile with a light pen, vs using meter to get an actual reading. The IPhone's just a light pen in this example. That's why I worded it as, "to see whether certain LED lights strobe or not" and " It's neat to check out for curiosity's sake."

==========

Here's a demo video I found of that phone test if anyone's interested. I like that they even included a clock with a second hand:

And this really short demo of tube lights:

If a person wanted to take their curiosity further, there are phone apps for measuring and meters available too. They available for a reason. It's required in the film industry becasue of LED's and interference of ******* speeds. Also companies that require tests of lighting in labs.

I read there's a steady current driver in the works by competing LED manufacturers for the best absolute zero flicker light - who knows when. For now, all lights flicker. It's just a matter of how rapid/slow and to what level or degree? It's not always perceptible to the human eye, but it's been shown that some do see it, especially where you get into slower and contrasting stroboscopic rates 120hz and under. The eyes and skin are the ones that relay that information to the brain, to have a reaction. Computer screens went through evolution on this subject too. Hence the IEEE ratings and acknowledgment mentioned earlier. That's not to say anyone's shop lights are junk or someone's senses are faulty for not being bothered by it. If anything, it means they're more durable, immune, healthy. Like an allergy, some have it others don't and to different degrees for the rest. Just gotta find the right allergy meds, or live with it.

I found articles talking about how in late 2015, IEEE published the first widely-accepted lighting flicker recommendations, largely based on the work of Arnold J Wilkins of the University of Essex. IEEE 1789–2015 is aimed at quantifying lighting flicker and acknowledging the associated health and safety risks. Which we already went through similarly with CFL's and other lights prior. They were not only concerned with flicker frequency, also flicker index and modulation. The IEEE recommendations define high-risk, low-risk, and risk-free flicker characteristics based on these three terms.

I may be wrong, but it's my understanding that low flicker isn't as high of a rate as non or no-flicker is it? I'd considered low flicker, but I'd rather gamble on lights with a much higher cycle rate. I've found some that said flicker free, but they were low flicker and I'd like to find the highest rate possible. I think I read some were around 120,000 cycles per second, as opposed to standard 50 and sometimes 120. It's just matter of confirming those claims and I really don't know what I'm talking about entirely here, which makes it harder to ask. Ha ha!. I know they cost more, but it comes down more to what I can live with on a daily basis and still work under productively. Especially if they only come by the case. I've had to work outside my whole life. Now I'll be inside, so I have to do what I can. I love halogens but don't want to work in an oven with a huge pwr bill.

Thanks everybody for hanging in there, hashing it out and learning together not taking anything personal. Hard to find these days and much appreciated.

Compounding the problem is that the medical community doesn't know what "range" is harmful and which isn't. And, they dont think it's exactly the same for everyone. So, even if you knew exactly the flicker amplitude and frequency of any given light source, you still wouldn't know if it's going to affect you or not. We know that some people are sensitive to it in one way and another person is sensitive to it in another way. Those folks in the autistic range seem more suceptible. I dont think there's any argument there. But what amplitude and range? No one knows for sure. So, it's like chasing ghosts right now. It was a hot topic in the lighting and medical industry about 2 years ago. Now, not so much. It seems like people are just learning to deal with it. One thing that's for sure...the lighting industry is racing to make things cheaper, not more expensive. So, until or unless someone thinks that they can make money by inventing a driver that produces flicker free light, it wont happen. The market for a flicker free light source for susceptible people is very small.
I'll say it again, the cellphone gimmick is folly. All cellphone cameras and their lenses and settings are different. You can capture flicker on a 60w incandescent bulb with some of them and not with others. So, there is nothing to learn from it. It's just some guy noticed that his cellphone did this and is trying to tell everyone that he's found some interesting evidence-finding technique. It's rubbish. We already know that flicker is there.
CD

Good luck,
CD

 

[BoostedOne]

Didnt read every word of the thread, but I have had great luck with the Hyperikon brand of bulbs off Amazon. I tried another brand but that brand had a high failure rate out of the box. These have been perfect.
I had them in a 35x50 shop where the temperatures would range from 30 degrees F to 100 degrees F and they always turned on immediately with no flicker or delay. They are brighter and whiter than the fluorescent bulbs they replaced.
Between the old shop and garage, and the new shop, I retrofitted a few dozen 8 foot fluorescent fixtures with them.

As for how bright they are, I have a 33x100 foot shop space at the moment, and its lighted by 9 fixtures that have a pair of 8 foot tubes. Its as perfect as can be. The only thing that is left to be desired is theres not a lot of reflected light, to say, see under something. But I think that is due to the height of the fixtures. My current shop has a 25 foot high ceiling and the lights hang from chains 15 feet off the ground. In the old shop they were 10 feet off the ground and it was perfect.
The link below may be a larger carton, but gives you the brand I had really good luck with.

Hyperikon 8 Foot LED Tube, T8 T10 T12 36W=75W, Ballast Bypass, Frosted Lens, UL, Neutral White, 20 Pack - - Amazon.com

Hyperikon 8 Foot LED Tube, T8 T10 T12 36W=75W, Ballast Bypass, Frosted Lens, UL, Neutral White, 20 Pack - - Amazon.com

www.amazon.com