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Heat break at slab periphery?

Dr_Pippin

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Getting close to my slab pour and discussing with my concrete contractor what rigid foam to use for underneath the slab I reminded him to make sure and order enough for the inside of the foundation wall up to the top of the slab (cut at 45* angle at the top so it's covered by concrete). He apparently didn't see that on my wall/slab detail because he acted surprised I wanted that. He is now strongly encouraging me to not do that because he wants the slab to be firmly up against the wall to help against settling underneath (the site location unfortunately has a lot of fill underneath the slab) and if the slab is 2" off the wall it'll put more sheer force on the rebar. Slab design is 6" thick with 1/2" pex 12" OC for radiant with rebar also 12" OC EW. Will have piers on 3' square footers every 12' through the middle of the slab. Total dimension is 68' x 28'. I know I've seen it recommended here many times to have a heat break between the slab and the foundation wall, and I know it's code in Colorado, but what he describes about the sheer forces on rebar makes sense. He even said when he did his heated garage floor that he did not include a heat break between the wall. I'm now wondering about doing a thin (1/4") dense foam between the slab and wall to at least achieve some sort of heat break without shifting the slab too far away from the wall. Thoughts? There is definitely a lot of fill material underneath 2/3's of this slab, so settling is something I'm concerned with.

EDIT: I should mention I am in Kansas City, so we do get some cold weather.
 
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wssix99

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Getting close to my slab pour and discussing with my concrete contractor what rigid foam to use for underneath the slab I reminded him to make sure and order enough for the inside of the foundation wall up to the top of the slab (cut at 45* angle at the top so it's covered by concrete). He apparently didn't see that on my wall/slab detail because he acted surprised I wanted that.
This is a problem first because the concrete will crack and chip as it feathers out over that 45.

He is now strongly encouraging me to not do that because he wants the slab to be firmly up against the wall to help against settling underneath (the site location unfortunately has a lot of fill underneath the slab) and if the slab is 2" off the wall it'll put more sheer force on the rebar.
A floating slab should not have rebar tying it into the wall. You should be able to put insulation all the way up to the top of the slab and it should all float. (We have other threads on how to finish the walls so you don't see the insulation and thermal break.)

Will have piers on 3' square footers every 12' through the middle of the slab.
What are these piers for? Are they for structural columns or to support something up above? I assume they are NOT to support the slab, is that correct?
 

ConCretin

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There are a few concerns here that, quite honestly, raise questions about your contractor's competence. As wssix99 correctly points out, you don't want rebar connecting the slab to the perimeter walls. You want the slab to be free floating and able to contract as it shrinks to avoid excessive shrinkage cracks.

Secondly, your base MUST be adequate to provide uniform support to your slab without connecting to the foundation or anything else. Anything less is guaranteed to create problems.

Thirdly his comments about wanting the slab placed firmly against the wall to 'help against settlement' and insulation creating excess 'shear forces' on the rebar are idiotic. He's just looking to make his job easier.

With regard to your basic question. Although it's commonly used, I'm not a huge fan of the beveled insulation detail you propose. You definitely want rigid insulation under the slab and on the face of your frost walls but a simple thermal break is fine around the slab perimeter. I like to use 1/2" foam expansion material with a top strip that can be removed and filled with sealant to provide a good seal and a finished look. Here's an example;


Sorry if this sounds harsh but there are a lot of hack concrete contractors out there placing bad slabs that the owner is stuck with. Take a look at my Guide to Floor Slabs in the link below so you can make sure he doesn't do anything stupid.
 
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Dr_Pippin

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This is a problem first because the concrete will crack and chip as it feathers out over that 45.


A floating slab should not have rebar tying it into the wall. You should be able to put insulation all the way up to the top of the slab and it should all float. (We have other threads on how to finish the walls so you don't see the insulation and thermal break.)


What are these piers for? Are they for structural columns or to support something up above? I assume they are NOT to support the slab, is that correct?
Well oh boy, I'm not going to sleep well tonight. The columns are supposed to support the slab. And they're already poured.

We decided to go with a 1/2" expansion joint material to achieve the heat break, which I'm happy with. So no worry with cracking/chipping as you rightly described.


There are a few concerns here that, quite honestly, raise questions about your contractor's competence. As wssix99 correctly points out, you don't want rebar connecting the slab to the perimeter walls. You want the slab to be free floating and able to contract as it shrinks to avoid excessive shrinkage cracks.

Secondly, your base MUST be adequate to provide uniform support to your slab without connecting to the foundation or anything else. Anything less is guaranteed to create problems.

Thirdly his comments about wanting the slab placed firmly against the wall to 'help against settlement' and insulation creating excess 'shear forces' on the rebar are idiotic. He's just looking to make his job easier.

With regard to your basic question. Although it's commonly used, I'm not a huge fan of the beveled insulation detail you propose. You definitely want rigid insulation under the slab and on the face of your frost walls but a simple thermal break is fine around the slab perimeter. I like to use 1/2" foam expansion material with a top strip that can be removed and filled with sealant to provide a good seal and a finished look. Here's an example;


Sorry if this sounds harsh but there are a lot of hack concrete contractors out there placing bad slabs that the owner is stuck with. Take a look at my Guide to Floor Slabs in the link below so you can make sure he doesn't do anything stupid.
Yup, definitely going to be a sleepless night for me. Ugh. I had read your guide numerous times over the winter, but the numerous delays to reach this point had me forget some of the things I should have remembered. What the contractor and I discussed with this project is, what he termed, effectively making a structural slab. And he strongly suggested piers every 12', which I had not envisioned in my original plan, so I spent a ton of time reading about them and trying to determine if they were warranted - in the process of doing that I found lots of new build plans online had piers detailed (also at 12' intervals), so I accepted his recommendation for having them. I had them detailed in my city permit application, and the city didn't make any mention of them being good or bad for my design.

I appreciate the whitecap recommendation. When I spoke with my concrete contractor this afternoon, after I made this post seeking feedback, we settled on using an expansion joint foam, which appeared to be 1/2" thick rubbery/foam material. He only had it in 4" wide rolls, but said it came in 6" wide as well and would get some ordered so I can have the heat break I want. I do like the foam you shared with the ability to remove the top portion and fill with sealant. Being that the White Cap foam is only 5" tall and my slab will be 6" thick, do I just accept 1" of the slab will be in contact with the foundation wall? Or do something else for that other 1"?

And not harsh at all. I'm here for the feedback and knowledge all the members on this forum have. Concrete is far outside my realm of expertise.
 
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ConCretin

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Let me back up a bit. I re-read your original post and I think I have a better understanding of what you are trying to accomplish. So your design consists of a 6" structural slab supported by a pier every 12' throughout the interior and rebar doweled into the perimeter wall?

I'm curious about the reasoning for this approach. A ground supported slab on grade is a much simpler and risk free approach but maybe something about your local soil conditions lead to the need for a structural slab.

My first question is whether this was engineered or did your contractor come up with the plan. I'm not an engineer but I've built hundreds of thousands of square feet of structural slabs and the design seems a little sketchy to me. My experience is with large commercial and industrial projects that are probably over designed so maybe I'm overthinking it but I'd want an engineer to check the design if one hasn't already.

I'd much prefer to see the slab supported on a shelf at the perimeter to provide better support and allow some horizontal movement to and I'd be looking to thicken the slab over the interior piers to resist punching shear. I don't know what the load bearing capacity of a 6" slab would be spanning 12' is but it seems kinda light to me. Finally crack control is an issue. Structural slabs don't have control joints and with your perimeter constrained by the rebar dowels, the slab can't contract and you will get a lot of random cracks. Shrinkage cracks aren't generally a concern in a ground supported slab but that's not what you are building so reinforcing becomes crucial.

Keep in mind that your slab will be supported 100% by the piers and dowels. Even well compacted soil will settle a bit. This isn't an issue for a slab on grade as long as it's relatively uniform. When this occurs under your slab, the load will be transferred to the structural supports. It might be fine but I'd want an engineers stamp to protect my investment. Might be time to tap the brakes.
 

NUTTSGT

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Curious as to how much fill was put in for the slab and how/when was it compacted?


Sounds like the contractor is trying to get the slab done fast, get his check and be gone before anything bad happens.

How long has he been in business.... under y current business name ?


When I built my addition, I put 3/4" foam along the foundation wall to the footer. It was the screed line for the finished floor. The final plan, never done, was to torch the top edge of the foam and fill with Sika Concrete Fix. . . along with the control joints.
 
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Dr_Pippin

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Let me back up a bit. I re-read your original post and I think I have a better understanding of what you are trying to accomplish. So your design consists of a 6" structural slab supported by a pier every 12' throughout the interior and rebar doweled into the perimeter wall?

I'm curious about the reasoning for this approach. A ground supported slab on grade is a much simpler and risk free approach but maybe something about your local soil conditions lead to the need for a structural slab.

My first question is whether this was engineered or did your contractor come up with the plan. I'm not an engineer but I've built hundreds of thousands of square feet of structural slabs and the design seems a little sketchy to me. My experience is with large commercial and industrial projects that are probably over designed so maybe I'm overthinking it but I'd want an engineer to check the design if one hasn't already.

I'd much prefer to see the slab supported on a shelf at the perimeter to provide better support and allow some horizontal movement to and I'd be looking to thicken the slab over the interior piers to resist punching shear. I don't know what the load bearing capacity of a 6" slab would be spanning 12' is but it seems kinda light to me. Finally crack control is an issue. Structural slabs don't have control joints and with your perimeter constrained by the rebar dowels, the slab can't contract and you will get a lot of random cracks. Shrinkage cracks aren't generally a concern in a ground supported slab but that's not what you are building so reinforcing becomes crucial.

Keep in mind that your slab will be supported 100% by the piers and dowels. Even well compacted soil will settle a bit. This isn't an issue for a slab on grade as long as it's relatively uniform. When this occurs under your slab, the load will be transferred to the structural supports. It might be fine but I'd want an engineers stamp to protect my investment. Might be time to tap the brakes.
You are correct, it will be a 6” structural slab supported by a row of piers in the middle of the slab and rebar anchored into the foundation walls every 12” all the way around.

We have expansive clay soils here, which probably means more to you than me. My original design with the beveled foam around the periphery as a heat break is code in Fort Collins, CO, so I printed their code diagram and showed it to him yesterday. He explained they can do that there because they have very different soils than we have here (Kansas City).

To explain the site a little bit, my house was built 30 years ago with an on-grade basement slab floor (walk out basement) and then around the side of the house where my existing side-entrance garage is 9’ of fill were used to bring grade up to the level of the garage floor for the driveway. My existing garage’s foundation wall from the footer to the top of the stem wall is 10’ tall, and the stem wall is only 18” above the top of the slab. They are very tall foundation walls. My garage addition, which is abutting the existing garage, necessitated excavating down 9’ to find virgin dirt for the footers for the foundation walls. It’s a lot of old fill. We discussed hauling away all the dirt inside the foundation and bringing in new for compaction (and how that would be the ideal scenario), but it was ultimately decided that financially such an undertaking wouldn’t be financially feasible given that the addition is 1,350sq. ft. He suggested going the structural slab route mirroring how he has had engineers design them in the past. He did ensure the pier design for my project was appropriate with his engineer, but I don’t have a stamped document verifying that. I do, however, believe him.

Funny you should mention wanting the slab to sit on a ledge all the way around - that is exactly how I drew up my initial foundation detail, but I shared the design here on garagejournal to ask a question about how to achieve a certain spacing and everyone was telling me it was a bad idea and not to do that. So here I am now, rather wishing I had done it!!

I really, really like your idea of thickening the slab some more over the piers. The original plan was to use a 3’ auger attachment on a skid steer to drill down for the piers, then bell out the bottoms of the holes by hand, and pour it all continuously with the slab. As it turned out the be so much fill with big rocks he wasn’t able to auger the holes and had to instead over dig the holes with a mini ex. Then pour footers and use sono tubes for the piers. Given that the sono tube piers are a smaller diameter than augered piers would have been, I believe you are spot on the money with thickening the slab in those areas. Thank you.

We have discussed control joints and he’s leaving that decision up to me. I’d not considered that a structural slab shouldn’t have them. The entire slab will be 2,000sq.ft. (28’x69’), and I am worried about shrinkage cracks, especially due to the 69’ dimension. Do I forgo them and accept that with rebar 12” OC EW they will be fairly small and contained?

And as far as better supporting the slab at the periphery, is there anything than can be done now that the foundation wall has already been poured? Have rebar drilled every 6” at the periphery instead of every 12”? Should I “just” (ha!) increase the overall slab thickness to 7”? I don’t want to add another $2K to my concrete bill, but I also don’t want this slab to fail.
 
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Dr_Pippin

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Curious as to how much fill was put in for the slab and how/when was it compacted?


Sounds like the contractor is trying to get the slab done fast, get his check and be gone before anything bad happens.

How long has he been in business.... under y current business name ?


When I built my addition, I put 3/4" foam along the foundation wall to the footer. It was the screed line for the finished floor. The final plan, never done, was to torch the top edge of the foam and fill with Sika Concrete Fix. . . along with the control joints.
I have a full outline of the fill situation in my [really long] reply to LLWillysFan, but in short the fill is from when the house was built 30 years ago. The excavator had to dig down 9’ to get to virgin soil for my addition’s footer. So it wasn’t that the fill was brought in for my project, but I’m now stuck with it building over it.

I absolutely get your question regarding how long has he been in business, and re-reading my post I can see how my brief summaries of a couple of our conversations can make a reader leery as to his intent, but he’s been in operation since 2005 and I truly do not have the feeling he’s trying to fleece me or give me bad advice. He was a referral from a good friend of mine who he has done work for on two separate projects 5 and 8 years ago, both of which still look pristine.

I really like your idea of torching the visible foam at the periphery so you could make a void to fill with a patch kit. Very creative.
 

NUTTSGT

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Sounds like you have more information than originally posted, easy to do. Also looks like you have a good feeling about the contractor.

Go with your gut and full speed ahead.



Don't do the torch the foam thing yet. Let me try it and **** my **** up first, before you ruin your's.
 

ConCretin

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Thank you for taking the time to provide the additional information. I can see how you ended up where you are. It sounds like your contractor has some experience with similar construction and if you trust him to stand behind his work, you might be absolutely fine.

If you have any doubts however, an engineer could check the design and the cost would probably be a fraction of your investment. With that said, an engineer is likely to be a lot more conservative in his design than your contractor, which could drive up the cost of the work even further. Tough call.

With regard to your specific questions; Control joints aren't practical in structural slabs for a number of reasons and at the end of the day, a crack is a crack whether it's visible or hidden in a saw cut. You could install control joints but I suspect the concrete will have different ideas and you'll end up with cuts and visible cracks. As you mention, the rebar should keep them from opening up too much. Some extra top bars over the piers might not be a bad idea.

As far as the rebar around the perimeter, I think it's probably structurally capable of supporting the slab. The downside is the restraint to shrinkage and increased likelihood of cracking. I suppose you could bolt an angle iron to the wall instead but that wouldn't be cheap.

I hope you'll keep as informed as you go. Some pics would be nice! :)
 
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Dr_Pippin

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Thank you the info. Was really hoping final grading was going to be completed earlier this week, but still hasn't happened.
I hope you'll keep as informed as you go. Some pics would be nice! :)
I've got a ton of pictures, was just going to wait until closer to finished (at least with the slab!) to start sharing them! Teaser image of digging a really deep trench for the foundation wall:

IMG-3046.jpg
 
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