Heat Pump Advice

[brentmc]

Folks,

My 12-year old heat pump condenser (outside unit) puked all of its R22 for the second time in a year. It is connected to a 2-year old air handler that is 410a capable, but we are running R22 in order to work with the older unit (not my idea; the warranty company did that).

My home warranty company wants to fix the R22 leak and pump more R22 into the system (I'd have to pay $855 for 9 pounds!) and call it *good*. I'm inclined to replace the condenser with a newer/410a unit but will likely have to cover the cost as the warranty company wants to band aid this with more R22 and move on.

My Questions: Once the leak is fixed, can I get R22 put in cheaper than $105 a pound?

Should I just replace the outside unit and run 410a Freon?

If so, could I purchase a new unit myself and just pay for the install to save a bunch of $$?

If so, what SEER is reasonable to look for? 18 SEER? The space to be cooled is aprox 2,000 sq ft and the system is dual zone.

Thanks!

 

[thooks]

Call the warranty company and tell them they/their contractor have violated Federal Law that states you can't refill a refrigerant system until you HAVE FIXED THE LEAK.

It's at least a $10,000 fine if you are caught.

I also think it's not wise to buy these home warranties. I don't know of anyone that is satisfied with them. Everybody thinks they are the one that is going to get a new appliance out of the deal, when the warranty company just keeps putting band-aids and duct tape on. They also contract with very poor contractors.....the GOOD contractors tell them to pound sand because they do not pay a competitive rate....

There's more work out there in this field than can get done. Why would a good company do work for a crappy warranty company that isn't going to pay well?


Here's what you need to do: (you asked for advice)

1. Get some quotes on replacing the failed condensing unit and coil inside the air handler. The refrigerant piping also needs to be replaced.
2. Figure out who the most competent and has the best value.
3. Pay it and get it done.

 

[jshillin]

That home warranty company is going to keep putting bandaids on it until the warranty runs out. That's about the going rate for R22. I had a company that would charge mine for a lot less($4/ounce), but in the end, it made more sense for me to replace, not repair.

If your heat pump is 12 years old, you are due for a replacement... Mine was 10 years old and I replaced it with an inverter setup a couple months again because the coil had a leak in it. It did cost me some money, but it was well worth it. So much more efficient and quieter...

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Call the warranty company and tell them they/their contractor have violated Federal Law that states you can't refill a refrigerant system until you HAVE FIXED THE LEAK.

It's at least a $10,000 fine if you are caught.

That does not apply to systems of less than 50# total charge weight.

Brentmc, are the leaks actually in the outdoor half of the heat pump, or in the line set? If it's in the outdoor unit, I'd replace it. Make sure your line set is proper for 410a. Heat pumps are not just rated by SEER. They're also rated by HSPF. There are HPs out there rated at as much as 23 SEER/10 HSPF.

 

[Walter_TA]

You will have to replace the failed condensing unit and coil inside the air handler. The refrigerant piping will also need replaced. You can order the new stuff on the interweb. I use AC Wholesalers. Good price and good ship. You can set everything up and then pay to get it commissioned. you will save alot of money. As far as SEER get as much as you can.

 

[brentmc]

That does not apply to systems of less than 50# total charge weight.

Brentmc, are the leaks actually in the outdoor half of the heat pump, or in the line set? If it's in the outdoor unit, I'd replace it. Make sure your line set is proper for 410a. Heat pumps are not just rated by SEER. They're also rated by HSPF. There are HPs out there rated at as much as 23 SEER/10 HSPF.

The leak they have found thus far was on the outdoor unit's Schrader valve...

 

[brentmc]

You will have to replace the failed condensing unit and coil inside the air handler. The refrigerant piping will also need replaced. You can order the new stuff on the interweb. I use AC Wholesalers. Good price and good ship. You can set everything up and then pay to get it commissioned. you will save alot of money. As far as SEER get as much as you can.

Can the piping and/or air handler coil be purged and re-used? Is replacing it a big job?

thanks.

 

[manwithtools]

Can the piping and/or air handler coil be purged and re-used? Is replacing it a big job?

thanks.

It can be purged and reused, most pro's may not want to do it because of risk to them in the event of problems down the road. I have a system that I did that with 8 years ago and it's doing fine.

I did it in my case because the line set was nearly inaccessible (second story unit) and it would have required wall demo and repair to get to the lines. I decided it was worth the risk.

Replacing the line set and the A-coil is a major job in most cases.

Might want a mod to move this to the heating and cooling section for more views by the pro's.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

The leak they have found thus far was on the outdoor unit's Schrader valve...

That is a $.50 repair, minus the cost of refrigerant...

Tommy

 

[BuffettFan]

So if you have to pay $855, what does the warrantee cover?
I would replace it, as well as the air handler if your tech recommends it, cancel the warrantee and put that money towards having a completely new system and theoretically, no issues for years to come.
I speak from experience, having fought a pieced together system for 12 years in the hopes of saving some money.
Replaced it all last fall. Money well spent, IMO

 

[manwithtools]

I suspect you have more than a leaking schrader valve. That's the easy answer when the coolant is gone.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

I suspect you have more than a leaking schrader valve. That's the easy answer when the coolant is gone.

Agreed. I still think it's time to replace it.

Tommy

 

[manwithtools]

Agreed. I still think it's time to replace it.

Tommy

And agreed again. If it's done it twice, they have proven they don't know how to repair it or the system is beyond its service life.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

Sorry, if you're under warranty, why would YOU have to pay the better part of $1k for more R22? you can probably get a new condenser unit for that.

 

[brentmc]

Great advice from all.

The warranty company is pretty bad and I will cancel them once this is over. I called them because the air handler was full of water and the drip pan was leaking through my ceiling. He removed 5 gallons of water from the air chamber! The drip pan has a hole in it (the water didn't even reach the drain, it all just leaked out from a hole somewhere).

The tech's diagnosis was: you have a leaky Schrader valve and lost all the R22. Refill it with R22 and all is good...they didn't even check for other leaks in the system...

I refuse to let them charge me anything for any R22--especially when they haven't checked the entire system for leaks.

Anyway, I'm sure this is just one of a million horror stories but need to decide a way ahead. I'm leaning towards replacing the R22 unit with a newer 410a unit. My only concern is that this will entail great expense in changing out lines and other parts...option B is to fix the leaks, find someone who can put in R22, and get some more years out of my system.

 

[markdtn]

12 year old system is due for replacement. Don't put any more "band-aids" on it. Pony up for a new system and move on. The money you are about to spend on refrigerant is a significant piece of a complete system.

 

[thooks]

That is a $.50 repair, minus the cost of refrigerant...

Tommy

Please tell me how to get a well-trained HVAC technician out to my house and replace anything for 50 cents.

Please.

 

[manwithtools]

Please tell me how to get a well-trained HVAC technician out to my house and replace anything for 50 cents.

Please.

Start with a case of beer and a family friend

 

[metaldad]

older equipment will last longer than anything built today.
id repair the existing unit, if it has a scroll compressor.
recip, it would be a tossup, but. id still lean towards repair

 

[Hobbit]

I have had leaks a few times with an older unit that the warranty company nursed along for years and not once did I pay for Freon. Just my required $50-$75 service fee.

 

[Tennessee Cattleman]

I would at least replace the 12 year old outside unit and save some money by canceling the home warranty insurance. You might want to price the outside unit with a new air handler also, may not be much price difference.

 

[brentmc]

The funny thing is my 20-year old 4 ton York unit will NOT DIE!

It hums along every day cooling the house...it gets uglier every day but cools like crazy...

 

[brentmc]

Mod--can you move this to the A/C forum?

 

[justinjoyal]

You will have to replace the failed condensing unit and coil inside the air handler. The refrigerant piping will also need replaced. You can order the new stuff on the interweb. I use AC Wholesalers. Good price and good ship. You can set everything up and then pay to get it commissioned. you will save alot of money. As far as SEER get as much as you can.

Buy online and hope it doesnt break. Good luck with the warranty if it does.

As a hvac contractor I hardly ever install stuff people bought online or at the hardware store, for example. When I do, it’s not for a couple of 20s...

As far as seer goes higher is not always better (when it comes to ROi.)

 

[Trey T]

I don’t know how to say this - home warranty is a scam. If you ask for cash in lieu of service, they will give you 1/3 of the estimated cost

Wholesale is only $15/lb. R22 appears to be going down and we’re in summer too

 

[walta]

If you replace the outdoor unit it is best if the indoor unit and outdoor units are match set that have been lab tested and rated to work as a pair. It seems likely your indoor unit is low efficiency unit that may lock you into a certain brand with low efficiency.

Another reason to replace the new indoor unit as it sounds like it was installed poorly it seems to be lacking a secondary drain that drains someplace you would have noticed and called for service, should the primary and secondary drains both clog there should be float switch to shut down the unit before your ceiling saw damaged.

15 is too old to spend much repairing if you have no plans to move I say get the best system in your budget.

I am not sure if I believe there diagnosis, if the symptom was leaking water I doubt it is low on 22, if the symptom was poor or no cooling with ice on the coils I tend to agree.

Walta

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Please tell me how to get a well-trained HVAC technician out to my house and replace anything for 50 cents.

Please.

I meant the Schrader core was $.50...

Tommy

 

[Trey T]

That does not apply to systems of less than 50# total charge weight.

Brentmc, are the leaks actually in the outdoor half of the heat pump, or in the line set? If it's in the outdoor unit, I'd replace it. Make sure your line set is proper for 410a. Heat pumps are not just rated by SEER. They're also rated by HSPF. There are HPs out there rated at as much as 23 SEER/10 HSPF.

Residential are considered minor polluters

reference:
https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2016-09/documents/608_fact_sheet_technicians_0.pdf

Automotive is even a more minor polluters to the point that purchase of R134a does not required certification

 

[mpire]

Replace the valve cores, they cost pennies.

Put in some UV die and get yourself a $7 purple flashlight and just look everywhere for the die every week until you find it.

I just bought a new outdoor unit at retail for $1020. R410a is cheap. Lineset for 75 feet was $150, you probably need less.

Talk to the contractor that comes out, tell him you want him to hook up your new lineset to your new outdoor unit. Maybe you slip him a $100 bill. No matter what you do, $988 is way too much to spend on refrigerant to refill a system that's going to leak it all out again.

You can also go with that propane 907c stuff, but you aren't allowed to put that into a leaking system. No clue if its good or bad though.

 

[mpire]

You can set everything up and then pay to get it commissioned. you will save alot of money. As far as SEER get as much as you can.

I know you guys like all this efficiency stuff, but its a complete waste of money.

Get the cheapest thing you can get. Look at your power company and see if they give rebates for buying more efficient equipment, otherwise just get the regular stuff. Its all going to last 10 years and then die for whatever reason.

You won't recoup the difference in price over 10 years unless you keep your house at 50 degrees when its 100 degrees outside.

I did the math one time and I couldn't make any of it work out, I think its just up-selling gimmicks.

A properly installed cheap system is just as good as a properly installed fancy system with bells and whistles.

Also, if you only spend $1500 on the system you can spend it again in 5-7 years and that basic system will be more efficient than the fanciest high SEER unit you can get now.

 

[brewchief]

I would replace everything, in theory you can flush the lineset and coil, we will flush linsets but not coils, there are way to many places to trap oil to be sure that the coil is truly clean. As cheap as warranty companies are I doubt that the air handler is anything special.

Higher end units aren't just more efficient they are typically quieter and if multi stage or modulating they can greatly improve comfort levels.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

The warranty policy makes YOU pay for the refrigerant? And they "fixed" it the first time around? Boy they really are scams. Double check your paperwork on that. That doesn't seem right at all.

If it was me, I would be buying a new outside condensing unit before dropping that on a second R22 fill.

But that is the going rate of R22 for technicians to fill, but the actual price they pay is like $18 a pound. So it's about a 500% markup on refrigerant plus their service fee.
Which is why I bought my own tank.