Heat Pump Education

[BuickBoy]

Hi Everyone,

My home has 20 year old AC, heat, and hot water. I'd like to replace these utilities soon. I was told tonight about heat pumps. I understand how they work, but I'm looking for some education and suggestions.

I was pointed towards Lennox?

I plan to do a lot of research before making a decision, but I hear they qualify for some good size tax credits!

Thanks in advance!

 

[brewchief]

Do you have gas, electric or oil heat right now?
Whats your location?

 

[BuickBoy]

I'm in Holland, MI.


We have full gas.

 

[pattenp]

I'm an owner of two new replacement heat pumps and one thing I didn't like was the change from R22 refrigerant to 410A. This has caused issues with coil leaks and other issues because of higher pressures needed. Also the energy efficiency that's provided by using variable fan speeds in the air handlers cause a problem call dirty sock syndrome. Keep doing your research.

 

[BuickBoy]

I'm an owner of two new replacement heat pumps and one thing I didn't like was the change from R22 refrigerant to 410A. This has caused issues with coil leaks and other issues because of higher pressures needed. Also the energy efficiency that's provided by using variable fan speeds in the air handlers cause a problem call dirty sock syndrome. Keep doing your research.

What brand are your pumps?

What was your efficiency increase?

Would you suggest these products to someone else?

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

A ground water heat pump (GWHP) is the way to go. Do you live in town (city water)? or out in the country (with a well)? do you have a way to dispose of the waste water? (pond, river, stream, open field)

When you do the economics, its pretty hard to beat natural gas (NG) for heat. While a GWHP will likely save you a ton of money on electricity for cooling in the summer, NG will probably be cheaper in the winter.

I have house with a GWHP since 1955 located near Green Bay which is further north that Holland. The house was built with a home made GWHP (using 480-3 phase power) in 1955. When that system finally gave up the ghost, I put in a WaterFurnace because I wanted to.

Good luck with your due diligence. Keep us posted.

 

[BuickBoy]

A ground water heat pump (GWHP) is the way to go. Do you live in town (city water)? or out in the country (with a well)? do you have a way to dispose of the waste water? (pond, river, stream, open field)

When you do the economics, its pretty hard to beat natural gas (NG) for heat. While a GWHP will likely save you a ton of money on electricity for cooling in the summer, NG will probably be cheaper in the winter.

I have house with a GWHP since 1955 located near Green Bay which is further north that Holland. The house was built with a home made GWHP (using 480-3 phase power) in 1955. When that system finally gave up the ghost, I put in a WaterFurnace because I wanted to.

Good luck with your due diligence. Keep us posted.

Thank you for the input!

I'm in the city, and the only way I have to dispose of water is city drainage.

Is city water a pro or a con here?

Due diligence is key!

Due to living in the city, I think that geothermal is going to be very hard for me to run. I'll likely have to do atmospheric.

Insight?

 

[Panz]

**** in Wisconsin -- described an "open" ground source heatpump, unless you have particular geographic features that make this attractive many new ground source heatpump installations are closed loop (circulate the same water and don't dump water continuously). Depending on how mild your heating requirements are you may be able to get away with some of the newer technology air-to-air heatpumps. The cons are you have a lower coefficient of performance (COP - ie how much heat is moved per watt put in), however new "high heating" heatpumps offer some attractive features compared with ground source units in terms of installed cost.

Unfortunately to come up with the "best" solution for you, you will need to know alot of information (seasonal heating degree days, average minimum temperature, costs of energy sources in you area, how long you plan to stay at the residence, etc...)

 

[brewchief]

In the Lennox line up I would suggest a EL195E furnace with a XP 13 or 14 heat pump as a basic single stage furnace and heat pump combo, for a higher end system the EL296V furnace and either one of the XP 13 or 14 heat pumps or the very nice XP17, with the EL296V and XP17 you can use the icomfort wifi stat that gives you control of your your system from a computor, tablet or droid or iphone from anywhere. The icomfort wifi stats only work with the xp 17 and xp 19 heat pumps and the SL280V EL296V and SLP98V furnaces so if you want that feature you must go with the XP17 or better heat pump.

With any new furnace I recommend a good media air filter, Lennox has good options as well as others such as Aprilaire.

 

[BuickBoy]

**** in Wisconsin -- described an "open" ground source heatpump, unless you have particular geographic features that make this attractive many new ground source heatpump installations are closed loop (circulate the same water and don't dump water continuously). Depending on how mild your heating requirements are you may be able to get away with some of the newer technology air-to-air heatpumps. The cons are you have a lower coefficient of performance (COP - ie how much heat is moved per watt put in), however new "high heating" heatpumps offer some attractive features compared with ground source units in terms of installed cost.

Unfortunately to come up with the "best" solution for you, you will need to know alot of information (seasonal heating degree days, average minimum temperature, costs of energy sources in you area, how long you plan to stay at the residence, etc...)

Thank you Panz!

I'm going to research the air to air options first. I have a .25 acre lot in the city. I don't believe I can do a closed loop system and don't have good resources for an open loop system. I did see on WaterFurnace's website they mention doing vertical close loop systems, but I see that as being costly.

As for my time in this location, I don't see it being more than 10 years. I am however, not opposed to improvements such as this which will not increase the home's value as much as it will it's curb appeal/amenities.

Thank you everyone, I'm quickly learning the terminology for this project!

 

[BuickBoy]

In the Lennox line up I would suggest a EL195E furnace with a XP 13 or 14 heat pump as a basic single stage furnace and heat pump combo, for a higher end system the EL296V furnace and either one of the XP 13 or 14 heat pumps or the very nice XP17, with the EL296V and XP17 you can use the icomfort wifi stat that gives you control of your your system from a computor, tablet or droid or iphone from anywhere. The icomfort wifi stats only work with the xp 17 and xp 19 heat pumps and the SL280V EL296V and SLP98V furnaces so if you want that feature you must go with the XP17 or better heat pump.

With any new furnace I recommend a good media air filter, Lennox has good options as well as others such as Aprilaire.

Where are you about in the state?

This is good information! I went through the Lennox site for their suggestions. I don't always trust the site, and I'm happy you've made some suggestions for me. Being so young and technology oriented, the wifi features has a great appeal to me!

Thank you again!

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

City water will be too expensive, city probably wouldn't let you use its water for this purpose ... but it doesn't hurt to ask.

How many square feet is the house? Year built? How well insulated?

Find a WaterFurnace dealer in your area. He/she can calculate how much water you'll need. www.WaterFurnace.com I think they are located just down the road in Fort Wayne, IND.

Sometimes you can drill a well for GWHP use and dump the waste water in the storm sewer (NOT sanitary sewer!), depends on the municipality and your DNR rules.

Another alternative is a closed loop system. How big is your lot? There are horizontal and vertical closed loop methods.

GWHP vs NG is basically a play between the cost electricity vs the cost of NG vs the temperature of the water in the ground. NG is cheap right now. If your community has a municipal electric untility versus a "normal public untility", your electric costs might be less (the well run municipals often have low electric rates).

In the winter you're creating BTUs to heat the house and in the summer you're pumping those BTUs from the house either outside (normal A/C) or putting them in the water (GWHP).

Are your summer temps moderate due to the lake effect? If so, that really takes the edge off of your A/C needs and works against the economics of the GWHP.

 

[pattenp]

What brand are your pumps?

What was your efficiency increase?

Would you suggest these products to someone else?

Mine are Trane. Original units were XL1200 with a seer of 11. New units are XL15i with a 16 seer. The dirty sock syndrome is an issue with high efficiency heat pumps. I didn't have the problem with the older units.

I would recommend Trane. This problem is not inherent to Trane. Ingersoll-Rand Co. bought Trane and is doing a lot to improve the product.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

Unfortunately to come up with the "best" solution for you, you will need to know alot of information (seasonal heating degree days, average minimum temperature, costs of energy sources in you area, how long you plan to stay at the residence, etc...)

I agree with everything Mr. Panz is saying.

I've always been under the impression that the air to air heat pumps just aren't economically feasible north of say I-80.

 

[BuickBoy]

Mine are Trane. Original units were XL1200 with a seer of 11. New units are XL15i with a 16 seer. The dirty sock syndrome is an issue with high efficiency heat pumps. I didn't have the problem with the older units.

Based off some quick research, I'm hoping the dirty sock syndrome is inherent to design of some brand's units. I guess this is a significant con.

Are you planning on keeping these units? What was your solution to the issue?

Thanks again!

City water will be too expensive, city probably wouldn't let you use its water for this purpose ... but it doesn't hurt to ask.

How many square feet is the house? Year built? How well insulated?

Find a WaterFurnace dealer in your area. He/she can calculate how much water you'll need. www.WaterFurnace.com I think they are located just down the road in Fort Wayne, IND.

Sometimes you can drill a well for GWHP use and dump the waste water in the storm sewer (NOT sanitary sewer!), depends on the municipality and your DNR rules.

Another alternative is a closed loop system. How big is your lot? There are horizontal and vertical closed loop methods.

GWHP vs NG is basically a play between the cost electricity vs the cost of NG vs the temperature of the water in the ground. NG is cheap right now. If your community has a municipal electric untility versus a "normal public untility", your electric costs might be less (the well run municipals often have low electric rates).

In the winter you're creating BTUs to heat the house and in the summer you're pumping those BTUs from the house either outside (normal A/C) or putting them in the water (GWHP).

Are your summer temps moderate due to the lake effect? If so, that really takes the edge off of your A/C needs and works against the economics of the GWHP.

Hi ****,

We are about 4 miles inland. I would say that we are on the border of the lake effect.

The house is approximately 1200 square feet without the full basement. It was built in 1992, and is decently insulated. The house is at a disadvantage with large quartering towards the west walls with strong winds coming in from a 4 acre field out back. Another big disadvantage is the size of the master bedroom only having one register!

It could use new windows, as there are many windows!

Currently the garage is not insulated, but will be by next winter.

As said previously, natural gas is going to be hard to beat, but I would expect there are much more efficient gas furnaces now, with this being one of the options!

I'm enjoying this.

Thanks!

 

[brewchief]

Where are you about in the state?

This is good information! I went through the Lennox site for their suggestions. I don't always trust the site, and I'm happy you've made some suggestions for me. Being so young and technology oriented, the wifi features has a great appeal to me!

Thank you again!

I'm 20 miles east of Lansing

At 10 years or less you may not see the ROI on a higher seer heat pump, unfortunately right now the 17 is the lowest lennox offers that works with the gas furnaces and the wifi stat.

Unless you're price shopping only I would avoid the ML furnaces and the ACX and HPX ACs and heatpumps, they are more of a price point unit, the EL and SL furnaces and XC and HP units are nicer and are quieter.

For rebates right now in MI Consumers Energy(gas) has a 400$ for 95% or better gas furnaces and DTE(electric) will give 100$ for those furnaces with an ECM motor. If ypu have propane your probably SOL. I'm not sure on the heat pump rebates right now but I think it has to be over 15 or 16 seer.

What is your currant furnace?

 

[philjafo]

If your not planning on staying more then 10 years I would suggest just go with a gas furnace, you won't be staying long enough to see the pay back and up here in the great white north heat pumps don't work so well when the temps drop. As far as resale value on the house a heat pump doesn't add anything, a well maintained furnace would be as attractive if not more so.

 

[BuickBoy]

I am purely price shopping. I was turned onto these appliances tonight by a co-worker and am seeking knowledge, which I've received a great load of! Thank you everyone.

I've contemplated keeping this home as a rental when I move out. We'll see how I feel when we get to that point.

I am worried about benefits of location with these. I also was considering it if the price was near the standard gas furnace as a way to eliminate extra cost of replacing the AC unit soon also.

I'm not sure who supplies electricity to the city, I pay one bill for electric, water/sewer, and trash. I can look into that. A tax credit is key here for me!

I'm at work, so not sure what the current furnace is other than, almost as old as myself.

As for resale, I know the age of the appliances was worrisome to me when I was buying. I know it won't add value but it will add curb appeal. It can mean those extra few grand at the negotiating table.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I'm in Holland, MI.

I've always been under the impression that the air to air heat pumps just aren't economically feasible north of say I-80.

**** is correct. The further north you are the more you need a ground water heat pump. Usually electric resistance heat is used as a backup for temps below 40F.

As for my time in this location, I don't see it being more than 10 years. I am however, not opposed to improvements such as this which will not increase the home's value as much as it will it's curb appeal/amenities.

You need to check with some local installer. They will tell you if a well can be drilled in the city and give you an estimate.

You had better be sitting down !

 

[Falcon67]

Based off some quick research, I'm hoping the dirty sock syndrome is inherent to design of some brand's units. I guess this is a significant con.

Look harder
"The Dirty Sock Syndrome plagues half to 2 percent of heat pumps in the Southern states with Texas representing the lower side of the percentage. The syndrome is not brand specific, with all manufacturers acknowledging complaints. The problem itself is sporadic and limited to isolated households and is somehow related to living style or products in the home. This can be proven as manufacturers have documented changing out systems with new product and the complaint returns. "

"After removing a ‘stinky' unit from a complainant's house, the unit can be cleaned and installed elsewhere without a complaint surfacing. Changing the brand of equipment has met with similar unsuccessful examples. In one instance, a complaining couple underwent a divorce and when one of them moved out of the home, the problem went away. Much effort and expense has been given by this industry to research and to solve this syndrome."

And "The problem seems to be limited to heat pumps. In most gas-fired furnaces, the coil temperatures exceed 160°F, a temperature that would kill most microbial life. But in heat pumps, the typical coil temperatures during heating cycles is between 120 and 130°, a temperature that seems ideal for the supposed microorganism to thrive."

But there are discussions of the problem with gas furnaces too.

FWIW - we have electric heat and would change to a heat pump in a minute, based on our climate. If we had gas, I'd not touch the thing. If I was at an SEER of 12 or 13, I'd leave it alone. I believe our Goodman AC is a 13. Quotes to replace the AC section with a 16+ prove out to have a saving payback of "never".

 

[ksj9393]

I am purely price shopping. I was turned onto these appliances tonight by a co-worker and am seeking knowledge, which I've received a great load of! Thank you everyone.

I've contemplated keeping this home as a rental when I move out. We'll see how I feel when we get to that point.

I am worried about benefits of location with these. I also was considering it if the price was near the standard gas furnace as a way to eliminate extra cost of replacing the AC unit soon also.

I'm not sure who supplies electricity to the city, I pay one bill for electric, water/sewer, and trash. I can look into that. A tax credit is key here for me!

I'm at work, so not sure what the current furnace is other than, almost as old as myself.

As for resale, I know the age of the appliances was worrisome to me when I was buying. I know it won't add value but it will add curb appeal. It can mean those extra few grand at the negotiating table.

In the FWIW category: I lived in extreme northern MN for 10 years and had a cedar log home, 1800 sq. ft., that we heated with a 2.5 ton Econar geothermal ground source heat pump. Installed by prior owner for cost of $12,000. Had horizontal field loops with methanol/water mix. Not a particularly well insulated home, yet avg winter electric bill was $140.

Neighbor's heat bill (with propane) was twice mine. Thus, I figure the ROI time was 14 years ($12K versus $4K upfront cost, 4 primary heating months at $140/month savings). I had wood stove for back-up heat, but even at -40F outside, in February when the frost was 5 feet deep in the ground, the GGSHP kept us warm and the wood stove was for ambiance, not necessity.

My biggest complaint was that the unit was oversized, thus cycled frequently, and used forced air to distribute heat and was loud.

That said, I am intending to use geothermal ground source heat-pump (GGSHP) again in my new house in Southern MN, but will couple to in-floor radiant heat system instead of forced air. This should tell you my overall opinion regarding GGSHP's. Am leaning towards WaterFurnace brand, and will pair with nat. gas back-up heat system as Xcel Energy offers reduced electric rate for dual fuel systems that will pay off handsomely beginning with the 6th year after install if my assumptions on costs are correct.

For your particular situation, I would say yes, you can use in your northern environment. Your upfront costs will be higher as on small lot you will need vertical loop system if you go closed loop. But if you plan to stay 10 or more years, it likely will pay off...

Simply my opinions, though...

 

[philjafo]

Most of the air source heat pumps in my area of ne wi are combined with a conventional furnace and the heat pump is not used once the temps get below 20 degrees. Geothermal is different because once you get below a certain depth the ground is always 65, it is not always feasible to put in the ground loops needed.

 

[pattenp]

Based off some quick research, I'm hoping the dirty sock syndrome is inherent to design of some brand's units. I guess this is a significant con.

Are you planning on keeping these units? What was your solution to the issue?

Thanks again!

I plan on keeping the units. I complained so much about it the installer sprayed the coils with some type of chemical earlier this spring . As of now I have not had the smell problem. It usually occurs this time of year when going from A/C to Heat. I found online where some guy used about 16oz of Pine Sol mixed with 1 gal of water and sprayed his coils and reported they have been odor free for something like 6 months. I would think the Pine Sol smell had to be really strong at first.

 

[BuickBoy]

I would prefer pine sol over mold smell any day!

 

[txst]

Having designed heat pumps and furnaces for two of the top HVAC manufactures for the past 20 years, I would recommend going with a 92+% gas furnace and a 14+ SEER AC. Water source heat pumps are more efficient, but they are much more complicated. One repair bill after the warranty is up will negate any energy savings you may see.

If you want, get a quote on a water source heat pump, factor in any tax or utility rebate, and compare it to a few quotes of a 92-95% furnace and a 13-14 SEER AC, and figure out the payback. I live near Waukesha, WI in a fairly well insulated house, and it would take many years to pay back the additional costs of a geothermal HP. Also, keep in mind the discharge air temperatures of a HP are not as high as a gas furnace (105 degrees vs 120+ degrees), so many people who switch from a furnace to a heat pump complain about feeling "drafty".

 

[pseudorealityx]

In your location, gas heat and a basic 13 or 14 SEER AC is the go-to choice. Heat pumps are excellent choices if you have extremely cheap electricity, live where winter temps are 'mild', or where there is simply not gas available.

We use them a ton here in GA. But our winter design temp is 17, and that's pretty rare.