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Heat pump question?

manwithtools

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Looks like the emergency heat on one of our heat pumps might not be working properly. The air at the floor registers is only about 78 degrees. Do the restive heating elements sometimes partially fail? I'm thinking maybe only one half of the element is on.
 
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justinjoyal

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What kind of system?

Heat pumps do not have heat strips. I supose you have a air handler with electric strips?
 

Done That

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Sure. The strip heat in an air handler is usually built out of sections, for example 20kw kit might actually two 10kw banks. Pretty easy to spot a break in the element itself.

Could also be a failed over temp limit, sequencer, or switching contactor for a particular heat bank.
 
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manwithtools

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What kind of system?

Heat pumps do not have heat strips. I supose you have a air handler with electric strips?

Man, that's a bit misleading to state that for folks that don't know any better. It's a heat pump unit and it most certainly has heat strips in it, because I put them there.

It's a package system and yes the heat strips are in the air handler section of the package, but that's getting pretty nit picky. Unit is a 6-7 year old Goodman 1.5 ton, 15 SEER if I recall correctly.
 
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manwithtools

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Sure. The strip heat in an air handler is usually built out of sections, for example 20kw kit might actually two 10kw banks. Pretty easy to spot a break in the element itself.

Could also be a failed over temp limit, sequencer, or switching contactor for a particular heat bank.

Thanks, was looking for possible failure points before I took it apart.
 

OccupantRJ

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An erratic sequencer can drive you crazy. A clamp on amp meter is a help to determine when a particular heat strip section is active, then the wiring can be back tracked and jumpered to determine the failure point. First sequencer might be activating a strip, then fail in it's second stage when it is supposed to activate the following sequencer(s)
 

OccupantRJ

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If two single stage sequencers with different timings are activated at the same time, the first one or the folowing one(s) can be faulty. Sequencers can have one or more stacked layers to provide desired actions, and can have different timings. The amp meter will narrow this down for you.
 

3rdgendslmech

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Different manufacturers probably have different set ups now but my air handler is a 33 year old Trane with 3 electric coils. Connected to a contactor when they're demanded to be on or emergency heat.

If you can ohm each coil out. A little difference between the 3 is fine. Open or a drastically different reading could be a bad coil.
 
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manwithtools

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OccupantRJ,
Amp meter it is for that check. Thanks very much.

3rdgendslmech,

That was going to be my first step, I was more curious about other failed components that I might no be as familiar with. At 33 years old, you need to replace that system. Energy savings alone would hasten your payback.
 
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justinjoyal

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Man, that's a bit misleading to state that for folks that don't know any better. It's a heat pump unit and it most certainly has heat strips in it, because I put them there.



It's a package system and yes the heat strips are in the air handler section of the package, but that's getting pretty nit picky. Unit is a 6-7 year old Goodman 1.5 ton, 15 SEER if I recall correctly.



I assumed a split system. ;-)

As it was mentionned the first thing I would do is take out my amp meter and see what kicks in when calling for E-Heat/Aux.
 

3rdgendslmech

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OccupantRJ,
Amp meter it is for that check. Thanks very much.

3rdgendslmech,

That was going to be my first step, I was more curious about other failed components that I might no be as familiar with. At 33 years old, you need to replace that system. Energy savings alone would hasten your payback.

She's getting changed out Sunday! Prior home owner changed out the condensing unit in 2005 but left the air handler alone. Well it failed a couple days before Christmas. Definitely looking forward to lower electric bills since I've been running off the emergency heat for 2 weeks now
 

bazar01

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Looks like the emergency heat on one of our heat pumps might not be working properly. The air at the floor registers is only about 78 degrees. Do the restive heating elements sometimes partially fail? I'm thinking maybe only one half of the element is on.

Your heat pump uses aux electric heating strips as a second stage heat source and depending on the thermostat use the same aux electric heat for emergency heat in case the compressor craps out in the heat pump or the outside temp goes below freezing and the heat pump is unable to extract heat from outdoor air.

Amp meter is your friend.
A 5kW heating element will draw about 20 amps on a 240V line;
10kW about 40 amps; 15kW about 60 amps.

Check if you have 1 or 2 stage electric heating strips.
1 stage will have a sequencer relay wired to W1 of thermostat. Number of stacks will depend how many 5kW strips you have.
2 stage will have 2 relays wired to W1 and W2 of thermostat.
 
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manwithtools

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Now I'm confused, - one 5KW element, amperage around 18.9 at all points I measured. Full 240 volts available. No visible damage or burns on element. I'm starting to wonder if a duct has come loose under the house. Going to check that now.
 
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firebirdparts

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5KW is pretty small for a heat pump booster. Do you have any evidence that it ever worked any better?

If so, The temperature is a product of 3 variables: Heat input, air flow, and the temperature the air was before it was heated.
 

bazar01

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5kW is too small for your region in the US.
I have 2 stages of 7.5kW each in my Atlanta home.

Get your air handler model# and get a heat strip with 2 x 7.5kW elements.
Or you can re-string your old one with a higher wattage element.
 
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bazar01

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Oh I made an experiment today and disconnected the 10kW aux electric heat strips on my 15 year old Rheem high efficiency unit and set the thermostat to 68F with an outdoor temp of 26Fhere in Leesburg, GA. I'd like to see if I can drop my electric usage this month.
I was surprised I was getting warm air coming out of the vents and it satisfied the set point after one hour of runtime just running on heat pump with electric heat disconnected.
 

OccupantRJ

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My shop up to this point has had no active heat strip due to the fact I had only 60 amps to the shop. It has taken a while, but the heat pump on it will eventually heat the shop when the shop temp starts at 40 degrees inside. There is a 10 kw strip in the unit, so I detached half of it and am going to run that. The extreme cold caught me short, so that will be tried when I can get back out there. My shop will stay 40 degrees in 25 degree weather with no heat at all on. I will be using a wall mount gas heater for backup and for when the power may be out. I will be upgrading the electrical to 90 amps in the Spring, but still plan to run 5kw to keep the costs down.
 
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Done That

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Oh I made an experiment today and disconnected the 10kW aux electric heat strips on my 15 year old Rheem high efficiency unit and set the thermostat to 68F with an outdoor temp of 26Fhere in Leesburg, GA. I'd like to see if I can drop my electric usage this month.
I was surprised I was getting warm air coming out of the vents and it satisfied the set point after one hour of runtime just running on heat pump with electric heat disconnected.

I'm not a fan of having AC like cold air from the vents whenever the unit goes into defrost if you don't have strip heat connected to temper the air.

If you want to "automate" this for the long haul you could install an aux heat lockout (Outdoor Thermostat) kit in the heat pump. Has a rotary pot that lets you create a set point, for example 10 degrees outdoor ambient, above which the aux is always locked out. Below this it will be allowed to come on, and it will still come on during defrosts. Requires an extra wire run between the indoor and outdoor units.

Can also be accomplished with certain indoor wall thermostats that allow a remote outdoor air temp sensor to be connected and perform the same logic. Finally, some folks can't run the wires for an outdoor sensor, so some indoor thermostats have an algorithm that (when the feature is enabled) allow the pump to run for longer than normal periods of time to catch up before they would bring on aux strip heat. Helpfull when folks use a programmable thermostat and do a night time temperature set back and then the unit has to recover in the AM. I don't do set backs with a heat pump for this reason.

Hey, you may be aware of all of this....throwing it out there just in case.
 
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manwithtools

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5KW is pretty small for a heat pump booster. Do you have any evidence that it ever worked any better?

If so, The temperature is a product of 3 variables: Heat input, air flow, and the temperature the air was before it was heated.
Don't recall it ever being an issue before. Weather has been very cold as it is everywhere. I might upgrade to an 8kw and see if it cures it, everything else seems to check out okay. This is only a 900 sq ft area in an in-law apartment.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
 
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justinjoyal

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If you want to "automate" this for the long haul you could install an aux heat lockout (Outdoor Thermostat) kit in the heat pump. Has a rotary pot that lets you create a set point, for example 10 degrees outdoor ambient, above which the aux is always locked out. Below this it will be allowed to come on, and it will still come on during defrosts. Requires an extra wire run between the indoor and outdoor units.


The control we sometimes use does not require any extra wire (using todays standards at least.)

Y from tstat to common terminal, NO to Y on heat pump and NC to Wout on heat pump. (Or vice-versa, i can never remember!)

When the control senses less than the setpoint it sends the signal from Y to the aux. heat instead of the compressor.
 

bazar01

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I'm not a fan of having AC like cold air from the vents whenever the unit goes into defrost if you don't have strip heat connected to temper the air.

Hey, you may be aware of all of this....throwing it out there just in case.

Thank you for that.
Yeah, already aware of that. Just wanted to try how low the outdoor temp can be for my 15 year old heat pump to still extract heat from outdoor air.
My mini split with no aux electric strip can handle below freezing temps with no problem.

Yes, an outdoor temp sensor for heat pump lock out will be best.
I still have unused wires from my thermostat cable that I can use for that purpose.
Just experimenting!
 

Falcon67

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The Ecobee I just put in is set to not even bother with E-heat unless the outside hits 5F or below. We got to 9 LOL. I also have the differential between setting and ambient at 5F to avoid turning on the strips when coming off a low night time setback. So far so good. 100 hrs below 32, stayed 67~68 in the house all the time. Would not call that any "savings" as the compressor ran a bunch trying to pull heat out of cold air. Several days we burned more than $20 of kwhs.
 

aunsafe2015

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The Ecobee I just put in is set to not even bother with E-heat unless the outside hits 5F or below. We got to 9 LOL. I also have the differential between setting and ambient at 5F to avoid turning on the strips when coming off a low night time setback. So far so good. 100 hrs below 32, stayed 67~68 in the house all the time. Would not call that any "savings" as the compressor ran a bunch trying to pull heat out of cold air. Several days we burned more than $20 of kwhs.
More than $20 in a single day? How big of a space are you heating? That sounds extreme. My heat pump is more like $2.00-2.50 per day worth of kwhs when it stays below freezing all day, but I have aux heat completely locked out, and the space it's heating is only about 600 sq ft. I keep it set to 68. Heat pump has kept up fine so far, but it's getting down to sub-10 F tonight and tomorrow so we'll see if it can maintain 68 even with aux locked out...
 
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