Heat pump repair

[danski0224]

There's no way that I would recommend putting that kind of money into a 14 year old residential split heat pump or AC system.

It won't fix any leaks beyond the compressor braze joints- so it will still leak and the customer will be PO'd when it needs refrigerant again. The stop leak products are hit and miss. Some may take out the system.

The customer usually forgets that there is no real warranty on this kind of work (outside of the actual compressor being defective- and that is a rare happening these days). I would more than likely refuse this type of band aid work unless the customer signs something acknowledging that there is no warranty on the rest of the system.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Not here. My 2013 flat rate pricing book has the complete job at $1,585.86 for a stadard efficiency 3-5t unit. I was low, but adding for inflation still isn't a $3,500 job, at least not in the STL area.

It's surprising what the difference in rates and average job costs are in other parts of the country.

Now that the OP has listed all the details and disclosed the undersized ductwork, even with his financial issues, at this point I recommend a full on replacement, too. That is too much work to save that old of a system.

Tommy

 

[American Locomotive]

$3500 sounds way high, as does the 10 hours of labor. I've seen the in-house HVAC guys at work do compressor change outs in a couple of hours.That includes recovering the system and all the brazing + electrical.

For $3500 you could literally get your EPA cert to buy refrigerant, a new compressor, refrigerant, new filter dryer, vacuum pump, gauge set, nitrogen to purge and a torch set to do the entire install yourself. Not that I'm suggesting you do that as there are some nuances to the whole dead, but you get the idea.

 

[chip6763]

Okay, I'm going to try to answer all of the questions:

1) It is an older unit. I previously received a quote for updating the whole system. Unfortunately, the existing system wasn't installed to current standards, and was before an addition onto the house. So system replacement is expensive (if done right). I do not know what happened to the compressor, but I will ask. I was told there is no 'acid' in the system.

2) Current unit is a 3.5T unit, (Should be 4 at a minimum and 5 preferred according to the quote).

3) the existing ductwork won't handle a larger unit and most would need replaced.

4) there are not enough 'return air' vents in the house. (the house has been added onto twice)

5) I misspoke when I said furnace, you are correct, it is an air handler in the garage.

6) The leak has been located. It will be repaired at the same time as the compressor change out.

7) I have no intention of doing this myself.

8) I have 3 quotes now. 1: $3500; 2: 2500-3500; 3: 2900.

9) this has led me to accept quote 1 as reasonable (though high) for my area. They have the best reputation, service the hospital I work at, and have serviced my system before. I will pay a $500-600 premium for known quality/warrantied work.

10) Because of the cost of upgrading the entire system (new ductwork and all), I will likely be repairing the condenser for now. If I had the money, and wasn't already in line for a new roof this year, I would replace the system. I agree it just makes sense, but I can't afford it right now.

Thank you all for your input.

2). There is no should be and 5 is preferred. Insist on a proper load run. Most homes are oversized system with too small ductwork.

3) some modifications to duct may be necessary, make sure unit is sized properly first

A poorly sized system on undersized ductwork will kill a unit quickly. If replaced do not let the company guess on size of the new unit based on the size of the home.

Gogle load calc . net. It isn't exact, but awfully close to sizing the system size that is needed.

 

[fowldarr]

To be clear. The $3500 does nothing about the ductwork. They recommend extensive ductwork when I replace the system.


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[LS6 Tommy]

To be clear. The $3500 does nothing about the ductwork. They recommend extensive ductwork when I replace the system.


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All the more reason I'd try to work out a way to afford the complete system replacement.

Tommy

 

[90da9t]

How much charge does unit hold? Where is leak he is fixing? R22 is sold(huge mark up) for around $100 or so a pound.

 

[yeldogt]

How much charge does unit hold? Where is leak he is fixing? R22 is sold(huge mark up) for around $100 or so a pound.

That's the problem -- a larger system with a long line set can hold a fair amount of charge. Unless he is sure they have found the leak and it's not a leak indicative of future problems -- he could be in for another 1k in recharging again.

With the newer refrigerant he would not have that worry or cost.

You don't want to patch a random leak in a coil -- the whole thing could be thin and going unless the guy fixing it can tell why it leaked.

 

[fowldarr]

The leak was at a connection.


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[theoldwizard1]

If we are talking just the compressor/pump the original price seems out of line. 10 hours of labor is also way out of line. I will give them 5-6 if that includes the labor of validating the integrity of the system (no other leaks) and installing the refrigerant (which of course is extra).

I found similar high pricing for repairing automotive A/C. Yes, chasing on a car can be time consuming, but I will bet that 90% of the repairs are "remove and replace" 1 or 2 parts. I bought an aftermarket A/C compressor "kit" with receiver/drier, expansion valve. O-rings and oil for under $200 from Rock Auto. Most local places were charging $400-$600 for the same parts. Those parts are typically simple R&R as are the condenser and evaporator.

I would happily pay a tech 1 hours of labor to evacuate and refill the refrigerant, plus $6-$8/lb (?) for R134A instead of $30-$50/lb and no labor.

 

[56Safari]

I'd definitely get multiple quotes and just get a new system, not worth fixing..... My compressor failed a few years ago. I did my detective work and figured out the compressor was grounded, I called a reputable HVAC company to confirm this because I'm not an HVAC tech and I just wanted to be certain before I replaced it... The guy gave me a quote of $6500 to replace a 2.5 ton package unit... I bought a goodman package unit for less than $2k and installed it with my dad in ~4 hours..

A split system with an air handler is more than an average DIYer can do, but my point is just to shop around... After installing it I still can't believe they quoted me ~$3000 for labor to install a packaged unit. That's just crooked

 

[danski0224]

If we are talking just the compressor/pump the original price seems out of line. 10 hours of labor is also way out of line. I will give them 5-6 if that includes the labor of validating the integrity of the system (no other leaks) and installing the refrigerant (which of course is extra).

If the quote includes validating the evacuation with a micron gauge, I don't think it is too far out.

If it is cut out the old and install a new liquid line drier, install a suction line drier, evacuate it for 30 minutes then go, yes I agree that it is a bit much... but not like 2x much.

 

[American Locomotive]

If the quote includes validating the evacuation with a micron gauge, I don't think it is too far out.

Set the vacuum pump up and let it run overnight and come back the next day. That's what the HVAC guys that service our company do. It'd be absurd to pay someone to sit around for 6 hours waiting for the system to pull down to <500 micron.

 

[theoldwizard1]

If the quote includes validating the evacuation with a micron gauge, I don't think it is too far out.

I am not familiar will all of the automotive AC equipment, but I don't think I have ever seen an automotive evacuation/recovery system that had a built in micron gauge.

Most shops only one evacuation/recovery system. The tech will hook it up let it run for about 30 minutes, leave it capped for another 30 minutes and if it holds, fill with refrigerant.

Even residential HVAC techs are not going to sit there for HOURS !

 

[danski0224]

For those commenting about "sitting for hours while pulling a vacuum"-

There is usually other stuff to do like wiring, condensate drain and some cleanup. Furnace stuff if it is a complete replacement.

The use of nitrogen (triple evac) can speed up the process. So can those big diameter hoses.

Yes, it can take hours to pull down a system, especially when it is humid out- even with all new stuff. It is almost impossible to reach targets on a system with oil in it (a repair, for example).

I'm not leaving my pump out on a job, unless the company provides it for me. Then there are those that want to change the oil at some point in the process. As far as residential goes, there usually isn't enough money in it to do it right the first time- so there certainly isn't any money in it to come back the next day and finish up.

Of course, there is always enough money in the job to do it 3 times... or more...

 

[brewchief]

For those commenting about "sitting for hours while pulling a vacuum"-

There is usually other stuff to do like wiring, condensate drain and some cleanup. Furnace stuff if it is a complete replacement.

The use of nitrogen (triple evac) can speed up the process. So can those big diameter hoses.

Yes, it can take hours to pull down a system, especially when it is humid out- even with all new stuff. It is almost impossible to reach targets on a system with oil in it (a repair, for example).

I'm not leaving my pump out on a job, unless the company provides it for me. Then there are those that want to change the oil at some point in the process. As far as residential goes, there usually isn't enough money in it to do it right the first time- so there certainly isn't any money in it to come back the next day and finish up.

Of course, there is always enough money in the job to do it 3 times... or more...

For years I've always tried to get a system on yhe vacuum pump as soon as possible, pretty common for it to be on the pump for a least an hour and normally closer to two. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been sitting there watching a pump with nothing to do, there is always little stuff to do.

As danski0224 said triple evac helps out a lot and I use schrader pullers on at least one side and if they fit both, they help out a ton and make it easy to blank of the vacuum gauge.

Price might be a little high but I expect that there is a little extra built in to cover a future call when something else fails and they have to at least take a good look at it, if nothing else to prove that it's nothing they did. Depending on how compressor failed there could be a return trip to replace filter dryers.

I would strongly look at replacing it now, if the budget doesn't allow many companies have financing available to spread the cost out and some states have programs as well, the 3500$ would be a decent down payment and is money that would be wasted if the system is replaced in a couple of years.

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[aunsafe2015]

As danski0224 said triple evac helps out a lot and I use schrader pullers on at least one side and if they fit both, they help out a ton and make it easy to blank of the vacuum gauge.

This. Use hoses rated for vacuum and removed the Schrader cores. Look on YouTube. Less than 300 microns in like 5 minutes doing that.

Why doesn't everybody do this??

 

[fowldarr]

Well, I finally got a second quote. I am going with a full system replacement at a rate that is substantially discounted from the original quote.


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[justinjoyal]

Set the vacuum pump up and let it run overnight and come back the next day. That's what the HVAC guys that service our company do. It'd be absurd to pay someone to sit around for 6 hours waiting for the system to pull down to <500 micron.

Pulling a <500 microns vacuum on a residential system should not take that long. Of course a ****** pump, schraders still in place, 1/4 in leaking hosings and such will not help... which is what a lot of techs work with.

I can pull a proper vacuum in less than 30 minutes most of the time.

 

[Bretny]

Im glad your just replacing the system. There has been great improvements in thenlast few years.

I got a 10yr old 3ton r22 system from a friend for free. Installed it my self. Lasted 2 yrs then the compressor shoted to all phases. A compressor costs $800 for just the part, no refrigerant. I bought a whole new system, condensor, evaporator and line set for $1400.

Theres just not much savings in replacing major parts on older units.

 

[justinjoyal]

Pulling a <500 microns vacuum on a residential system should not take that long. Of course a ****** pump, schraders still in place, 1/4 in leaking hosings and such will not help... which is what a lot of techs work with.

I can pull a proper vacuum in less than 30 minutes most of the time.

Just for fun:

Pulled a vacuum on a residential split with ~18ft of lineset (3/8 and 3/4) today. Got it down to 80 microns in 10 minutes. Shut it off and it raised to 110 and held for ~30 minutes so I let it rip. Lines had been brazed/purged with nitro.

3/8 vacuum rated hose/valves on a 7cfm 2-stage pump, with a core removal tool and nylog on the fittings.

 

[fowldarr]

Yeah, i asked the guy how much time it would take to do the compressor replacement (for comparison purposes. His response was that he would charge me 4 hours but be done in 3. The other quote was 10 hours of labor.

So, I know who to never call again.


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[nsula_country]

Yeah, i asked the guy how much time it would take to do the compressor replacement (for comparison purposes. His response was that he would charge me 4 hours but be done in 3. The other quote was 10 hours of labor.

So, I know who to never call again.


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They were not figuring travel time to job or to supply house. Unless they were within a mile of each other. 3-4 hours for replacement yes. Total time should be about 6. IMHO.

A replacement condenser with 10 yr warranty could be instslled for that price.

CT

 

[fowldarr]

The guy I have doing it has a shop 30 minutes away from where I live. He bundles his jobs in my area and charges an increased rate the first hour to make up for his travel time, and does it in such a way that he can divide that up (approximately) across all of his appointments that day.

Whereas the other company charged you at least 30 minutes travel time no matter what. Their tech literally lives down the street and has to drive past my house to go to work. They charged me 30 minutes travel time.


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