Heat pumps....

[jshillin]

Hi guys, I am having some heating problems. The outside unit on my heat pump stopped working, had my buddy come over and we figured out power wasn't going through the defrost board. I bought a board and changed it, the unit started working fine again for a week. Then it wouldn't kick on all of the time, so I called the local HVAC company I've used a few times.

The heat pump is a Luxaire that the bank had installed 10 years ago when I bought the house. My house has 2 units, 1 for up stairs and another for downstairs. I had the compressor replaced on the unit that is having issues 2 years ago.

The tech came out, I told him the symptoms I was seeing and he just didn't go about things like I expected. At the end, he said my coil was leaking and I needed to replace it. He really couldn't tell me much else. I got some quotes from them and they are on the high side of what I'm seeing.

I had bad vibes from the guy, so I called another company that I've heard good things about. The owner of the company came out, I explained everything to him and told him what the other tech said. He said it didn't seem right because my outside unit is kicking on more than not, so if I had a leak it was a really small one. He verified the coil on the inside has a small leak inside the coil, so nothing that could be easily fixed.

He gave me several options, one of them is basically a leak stop and then refill the R22. He said he usually doesn't suggest that, but my leak is very small and he wouldn't be surprised if I got a few years out of it. He said he can do that for around under $300.

Here's my options.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Option # 1: Install Leak Sealant ($129.00) and charge system with R22 at $4 an ounce. (estimated 36 oz. x $4= $144.00) Total approx= $273.00.

Option # 2: Install new Evaporator coil in Air Handler, charge system with R 22. One year warranty on coil only. Total= $1230.00

Option # 3: Install new Amana Air Handler in crawl space- charge system with R22. 10 year warranty on parts. Total = $1762.00

Option # 4: Install new Amana Heat pump system. Replace 2 ton system with 2 1/2 ton system. Prices vary by SEER rating and warranty.

14 SEER- 10 year warranty on all parts indoor and outdoor units. Total= $4870.00
16 SEER- 10 year warranty on all parts and Lifetime compressor warranty with unit replacement if compressor ever fails. Total= $5553.00
18 SEER- 10 year warranty on all parts and Lifetime compressor warranty with unit replacement if compressor ever fails. Inverter Technology provides energy efficiency as high as 21 SEER. Price= $7820.00
21 SEER- 10 year warranty on all parts and Lifetime compressor warranty with unit replacement if compressor ever fails. Inverter Technology provides energy efficiency as high as 24 SEER. Almost as high as GeoThermal at 1/4 of the cost. Price= $9610.00
--------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm at the point where I think I should go with the leak sealant and R22 refill and if I have problems with that, go with an 18 SEER inverter setup. I was thinking about replacing the unit now, but I just dumped money into the compressor and hate to scrap the unit right now.

I will add, this is a reputable company that has been in business for a long time. The other company is reputable as well and I always had good techs in the past, but this guy just didn't want to deal it...

What do you guys think??

 

[American Locomotive]

Amana is the same company as Goodman. Goodman makes low-end, trouble-prone stuff.

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

I'd probably go with the first option, just have the tech add some R22 if will get it running. If you get another few years out of it, $273 is pretty cheap.


If you decide to repair, I think its better to just replace everything and start new, especially since R22 is only getting more expensive. I wouldn't just replace the inside coil or air handler unit. Replace both and start new.

I wouldn't go near the 21 Seer unit, I'd probably get the 16 Seer. The costs savings never pan out and I bet the 21 SEER will require more service.

 

[jshillin]

Amana is the same company as Goodman. Goodman makes low-end, trouble-prone stuff.

OK, that's good to know. Thanks. They have a really good warranty though. I haven't settled on anything yet.

I'd probably go with the first option, just have the tech add some R22 if will get it running. If you get another few years out of it, $273 is pretty cheap.


If you decide to repair, I think its better to just replace everything and start new, especially since R22 is only getting more expensive. I wouldn't just replace the inside coil or air handler unit. Replace both and start new.

I wouldn't go near the 21 Seer unit, I'd probably get the 16 Seer. The costs savings never pan out and I bet the 21 SEER will require more service.

Thanks. I think I am going to get them to try the leak sealant. He said they put it in a customers unit a little over 4 years ago and it's still going strong so even if I get 1 more year out of mine that would be good. This company is only charging $65/lb for R22 which doesn't seem bad considering some of the $ figures I've heard.

If I go with a new unit, I'm leaning toward the 18 SEER. The inverter Heat Pumps and 2 stage Compressor intrigues me. My neighbor who does HVAC for a living and used to do my work until he because a Fed and doesn't have a private license anymore said that he definitely suggests the inverter.

 

[American Locomotive]

OK, that's good to know. Thanks. They have a really good warranty though. I haven't settled on anything yet.

Trane/American Standard, Carrier and Rheem/Ruud are top-quality brands that I would use. The Amana/Goodman is probably okay if you don't plan on keeping the house.

 

[samss]

Since it's an R22 system, I'd go with the leak sealant. AC Leak Freeze by Rectorseal worked really well for me in the refrigeration systems I put it in. Nu Calgon makes Easy Seal in a tube and a can. Some of the HVAC guys I know prefer the tubes.

 

[justinjoyal]

So what are the symptoms ?

 

[jshillin]

So what are the symptoms ?

Outside unit isn't running like it should. It's not kicking on and forcing my system to aux heat. They put the gauges on it and my pressure is a little low, so my low pressure switch is keeping the heat pump from kicking on sometimes. They put the sniffer on my inside coil and it was showing a leak.

 

[jshillin]

Since it's an R22 system, I'd go with the leak sealant. AC Leak Freeze by Rectorseal worked really well for me in the refrigeration systems I put it in. Nu Calgon makes Easy Seal in a tube and a can. Some of the HVAC guys I know prefer the tubes.

Thanks. They said it's almost like a big syringe, if that tells you anything.

 

[mustangacman]

Nothing wrong with Goodman. I installed mine 20 years ago this March with only one fan motor replace. It is all about the install and maintenance. I would also go with the leak seal and recharge. Just my .02 worth

 

[HAP]

Fact.

Nothing wrong with Goodman. I installed mine 20 years ago this March with only one fan motor replace. It is all about the install and maintenance. I would also go with the leak seal and recharge. Just my .02 worth

 

[LS6 Tommy]

I'd probably go with the first option, just have the tech add some R22 if will get it running. If you get another few years out of it, $273 is pretty cheap.

I think I am going to get them to try the leak sealant. He said they put it in a customers unit a little over 4 years ago and it's still going strong so even if I get 1 more year out of mine that would be good. This company is only charging $65/lb for R22 which doesn't seem bad considering some of the $ figures I've heard.

Since it's an R22 system, I'd go with the leak sealant. AC Leak Freeze by Rectorseal worked really well for me in the refrigeration systems I put it in. Nu Calgon makes Easy Seal in a tube and a can. Some of the HVAC guys I know prefer the tubes.

So what are the symptoms ?

Outside unit isn't running like it should. It's not kicking on and forcing my system to aux heat. They put the gauges on it and my pressure is a little low, so my low pressure switch is keeping the heat pump from kicking on sometimes. They put the sniffer on my inside coil and it was showing a leak.

Thanks. They said it's almost like a big syringe, if that tells you anything.

STOP. YOU ARE BEING MISLED!
You can't "top off" a comfort cooling/heating R22 system anymore if the leak is larger than 15% of the total charge, per year. Next year it drops to 10%. If your system is locking out on the low pressure cut out, I can guarantee your leak is bigger than the 15% trigger limit.

The only legal option is PROPER leak repair or total replacement.

Leak sealers are NOT to be used where the leak can be heard or detected with test equipment. Yes, there are some good ones, but many are snake oil and WILL damage the equipment eventually. NO compressor or metering device OEM endorses ANY of them.

On a separate note, why anyone spec'd a heat pump (other than a low temp mini-split) for anything much north of about Maryland is beyond me...

Tommy

 

[yeldogt]

Can't comment on the leak stop -- I'm unlucky going these routes ... and it's r22 ... what's that going for?

Looking at the newest Goodman stuff -- it actually looks decent. Goodman made basic no frill equipment and sold it to anybody .. much of the problems IMO were caused by poor installation. A very high percentage of Goodman stuff is not installed by professional HVAC people ..... and there are many HVAC companies that I put in the "Not Professional" camp. Goodman bought Amana many years ago and slapped AMANA on the better Goodman line. The next time one of my rentals needs a system I'm going to try one of the better units in the goodman line. They have a great in-house warranty .. and if you don't need all the bells and whistles they look like a good option. Goodman is now owned by Daikin.

For the OP -- I will tell you the new VS blowers and multispeed compressors are really nice. I'm in your area and they do a great job eliminating humidity in the summer and the HP's work great in our climate in the winter .. you will be shocked how well. I would go with one of the Amana units and never look back. Why waste $$ on the possible fix for two years .. spend a couple K more and get the comfort/ operating savings .. and the warranty takes care of any issues. Goodman is (I think) the only company that does the warranty "in house" ... that's a big deal. Make sure they are authorized dealer -- or check with goodman on how to insure the equipment is fully covered.

I'm not sure why Tommy does not like HP's -- my two carrier units are spinning aways w/o issue and work great down to 0 degrees. My last house has a two speed and it's still going strong after 13 years. Without NG .. the better HP's are a good option.

 

[larry4406]

Knock on wood my Goodman heat pump is 4+ years old now and working great. Installed by a legit company.

 

[justinjoyal]

On a separate note, why anyone spec'd a heat pump (other than a low temp mini-split) for anything much north of about Maryland is beyond me...

Tommy

And why is that?

 

[bazar01]

Thanks. I think I am going to get them to try the leak sealant. He said they put it in a customers unit a little over 4 years ago and it's still going strong so even if I get 1 more year out of mine that would be good. This company is only charging $65/lb for R22 which doesn't seem bad considering some of the $ figures I've heard.

Don't do it.
If the tech said the indoor coil is leaking, I would replace that indoor coil.
I always replace indoor coils and they are way cheaper. Of course I have the tools though and tech skills.
If it's an A-coil, measure the base width, the depth and the height of the coil and go to online hvac stores that sell uncased coils and match the tonnage.
Do not use any leak sealant.

If you don't want to go this route, replace the system with a non fancy R410A heat pump system.

 

[jshillin]

Don't do it.
If the tech said the indoor coil is leaking, I would replace that indoor coil.
I always replace indoor coils and they are way cheaper. Of course I have the tools though and tech skills.
If it's an A-coil, measure the base width, the depth and the height of the coil and go to online hvac stores that sell uncased coils and match the tonnage.
Do not use any leak sealant.

If you don't want to go this route, replace the system with a non fancy R410A heat pump system.

I'm not sure it's worth it to replace the inside coil. I quotes from 2 different companies on that, $1270 and $2290. At that point, I might as well spring for a new system. I'm going to get quotes from 2 other nearby HVAC companies just to get a comparison. If I wouldn't have had my 2nd story roofs shingles replaced last year and then I'm going to rip the entire back roof off my 1st story this year to change the pitch and put the addition under a single roof instead of the mess the original owner left. If it weren't for that, I'd just replace the unit and not think twice. Also, I just put a new compressor in it a couple years ago.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

If your system is leaking like you said AND it's an R22 system, it's probably time to kiss it goodby. R22 is getting very expensive.

The new inverter stuff is good if it is INSTALLED PROPERLY by someone competent. you can't just check the pressures or feel the line and end up with trouble free operation.

I had a friend in CT (no NG available) install a 3 ton inverter system (old system was 2.5ton single stage), and his electric bills are no longer insane. even though he paid $11k for the system+install his ROI is going to be about 5 years due to the new system basically never needing to kick in the aux heat. a major bonus of inverter systems (split or minisplit) is that they can go beyond 100% of nameplate capacity in the cold. when operating below 100% capacity, they turn-down the capacity of the whole system to match the load (instead of cycling on and off as much), including the fan speeds, so they're nice and quiet (and not drafty).

if you go with a non-inverter system, i'd recommend a 2 stage system with demand defrost, and a thermostat like the Honeywell Prestige IAQ - you can program the thermostat to lock-out aux heat above a set temperature (like 20-25F), and they offer intelligent recovery so when you come out of setback it doesn't turn on aux heat and blow away your savings account. that $300 thermostat can pay for itself in one month.

 

[yeldogt]

I'm not sure it's worth it to replace the inside coil. I quotes from 2 different companies on that, $1270 and $2290. At that point, I might as well spring for a new system. I'm going to get quotes from 2 other nearby HVAC companies just to get a comparison. If I wouldn't have had my 2nd story roofs shingles replaced last year and then I'm going to rip the entire back roof off my 1st story this year to change the pitch and put the addition under a single roof instead of the mess the original owner left. If it weren't for that, I'd just replace the unit and not think twice. Also, I just put a new compressor in it a couple years ago.

Another issue is efficiency --- units 10 years ago could very well be 10's ... you are not going to get a perfectly matched coil at this point ... it's easy an 8 at that point. So you spend $1200 and get 1/2 the efficiency of the new system and less comfort?

 

[PWC Repair]

I work behind the counter at the HVAC wholesale house. We sell Cliplight brand Superseal and Flex-inject. Over the last 5 years we have sold cases upon cases of it to literally every contractor within 50 miles of here. It works great for setups exactly like yours. It's cheap enough to get you by. You obviously know you need to replace the whole system and you're fine with that....which is a step in the right direction. On the once a year toppoff type leaks it works most of the time. I feel like it will work in yours, I'd do it to my own old R22 heat pump in hopes to borrow some time. I'm not so fond of the Copeland 2 stage compressors, I've had to fill warranty on several mechanical failures. I really like the inverter setups in the newer 17 and up SEER stuff. I'll be going that route when my kicks the bucket.

Coincidentally I put a compresser in mine too about 18 months ago. ONLY because it was warrantied.

 

[American Locomotive]

Nothing wrong with Goodman. I installed mine 20 years ago this March with only one fan motor replace. It is all about the install and maintenance. I would also go with the leak seal and recharge. Just my .02 worth

It's really evident when you compare a Goodman system next to a Trane or Rheem. The Goodman sheet metal is paper thin, the Goodman fans are louder, and the Goodman compressors are louder. Even the Goodmans with "Copeland Scroll" compressors are still somehow louder than other brands also utilizing Copeland Scrolls. My best guess is that it's a special value-engineered line for Goodman from Copeland.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

It'd be easy enough to check the part numbers against their inventory. is it something as simple as not having a sound blanket on the compressor?

The goodman 95% 60k in my last apartment seemed very well built. just as solid as the Carrier 95% 60k in my buddy's duplex, with fewer panels needing tools to remove, and more room to access terminal blocks.

I have a lennox elite (?) system (indoor 40/60k 80% and outdoor 2 ton), and my outdoor unit is the loudest of my immediate neighbors. doesn't sound like a budget system (aka "performance"), but who knows. of course the installer didn't follow the instructions and took the lines straight into the building without the recommended bends that allow for better vibration isolation, but that only affects indoor noise, not outdoor noise.

 

[jshillin]

Thanks guys, I do have someone coming out on Thursday to try the leak seal and a bit of R22. I have 3 other companies coming out in the next week for quotes also. I want to see the difference in them and ask lots of questions. So far I've been sized at 2 ton, 2 1/2 ton and 3 ton in the 3 companies so far...

This unit only heats/cools my downstairs, my upstairs has a separate heat pump, it's the same as the current downstairs unit, but with it being up stairs and the upstairs is a bit smaller, it doesn't run as much. I'm leaving the upstairs unit alone for now.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

Thanks guys, I do have someone coming out on Thursday to try the leak seal and a bit of R22. I have 3 other companies coming out in the next week for quotes also. I want to see the difference in them and ask lots of questions. So far I've been sized at 2 ton, 2 1/2 ton and 3 ton in the 3 companies so far...

This unit only heats/cools my downstairs, my upstairs has a separate heat pump, it's the same as the current downstairs unit, but with it being up stairs and the upstairs is a bit smaller, it doesn't run as much. I'm leaving the upstairs unit alone for now.

What's the size of your existing gear? if you're moving up from a 2 ton single stage to a 3 ton single stage you may have summer humidity issues and possible coil icing issues. keep in mind you need more airflow (350-400cfm/ton), and most houses have marginal ductwork at best, so trying to push 1000cfm through ductwork barely adequate for 700cfm:

1: will not actually happen (maybe you'll get 800-900cfm?)
2: it will be much louder than the current system
3: will not deliver rated tonnage
4: will not deliver rated SEER/EER/HSPF
5: will not deliver rated BTU/hr

 

[yeldogt]

All the major companies make at least three product levels... one being a building grade. In addition, they all own other brand names and do a lot of badge engineering. Goodman made basically builder grade stuff and better builder grade stuff before buying Amana ... it was all basic equipment. As I said above .. the better stuff looks decent for what it is --- at a good price and warranty.

For about 10 years I put a basic Carrier unit in all my rehabs/ rentals -- it looked like a small beige cube. Most I never touched -- properly sized -- proper ductwork -- installed correctly. Good value.

 

[yeldogt]

It's really evident when you compare a Goodman system next to a Trane or Rheem. The Goodman sheet metal is paper thin, the Goodman fans are louder, and the Goodman compressors are louder. Even the Goodmans with "Copeland Scroll" compressors are still somehow louder than other brands also utilizing Copeland Scrolls. My best guess is that it's a special value-engineered line for Goodman from Copeland.

No question for years the Goodman was basic stuff -- it was price driven. The newer stuff and the best stuff selling as Amana actually looks decent. They make it in the USA ... and the parent company should know something about HVAC.

I was surprised -- both my local Carrier/Bryant dealers sell Goodman as an alternative as does the Trane dealer.

 

[jshillin]

What's the size of your existing gear? if you're moving up from a 2 ton single stage to a 3 ton single stage you may have summer humidity issues and possible coil icing issues. keep in mind you need more airflow (350-400cfm/ton), and most houses have marginal ductwork at best, so trying to push 1000cfm through ductwork barely adequate for 700cfm:

1: will not actually happen (maybe you'll get 800-900cfm?)
2: it will be much louder than the current system
3: will not deliver rated tonnage
4: will not deliver rated SEER/EER/HSPF
5: will not deliver rated BTU/hr

Thanks. Outside unit is 2 ton, inside is 2 1/2 ton. I'm definitely going with a 2 stage unit and not single stage. I am also adding 2 vents to a room that isn't currently heated/cooled as well.

All the major companies make at least three product levels... one being a building grade. In addition, they all own other brand names and do a lot of badge engineering. Goodman made basically builder grade stuff and better builder grade stuff before buying Amana ... it was all basic equipment. As I said above .. the better stuff looks decent for what it is --- at a good price and warranty.

For about 10 years I put a basic Carrier unit in all my rehabs/ rentals -- it looked like a small beige cube. Most I never touched -- properly sized -- proper ductwork -- installed correctly. Good value.

Thanks, that's good to know. I asked a couple of the companies that came out about Goodman and they said they said they don't install the basic goodman and only install Amana from the Goodman lines. Most of the companies carry 1 brand and Amana it seems.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

Thanks. Outside unit is 2 ton, inside is 2 1/2 ton. I'm definitely going with a 2 stage unit and not single stage. I am also adding 2 vents to a room that isn't currently heated/cooled as well.

Some 2 stage factoids:
stage 1 is usually 2/3 of stage 2 (so a 2.5 ton ODU would be 1.65 tons low, 2.5 tons high). that would get you a little bit more total capacity than the 2 ton (good for those hot days, and the really cold days), but still keeps stage 1 below 2 tons, which means that the low cool can be set for an appropriate fan speed and be quieter, and since it will run longer, it will dehumidify your house better.
Changing size beyond 2.5 tons would likely be unwise without going to a VS/inverter system.

the longer run times in stage 1 often get you slightly better efficiency (same size heat exchangers doing less work = more efficiency) if the control strategy they chose is set up for it. otherwise you just get less noise. also due to the longer runtimes you get less cycling, which equates to fewer motor start/stops, which is good for equipment lifespan. hopefully they have a demand defrost on whatever you're quoted instead of a timer-only system - timer based systems often defrost unnecessarily, wasting energy.

you definitely need a heat-pump aware thermostat to maximize savings. simpler stats (even heat pump compatible ones) will engage the aux (strip) heat far too readily. Check the manufacturer literature for it.

This is a good read:
https://nest.com/support/article/What-is-Heat-Pump-Balance
Honeywell has it buried, but it's part of adaptive intelligent recovery, and the outdoor temp based lockouts you can configure. From what I've read both these systems will adjust the setback temp if it thinks it won't be able to recover and just not set back as far.

A cheap stat will engage the heat pump on stage 2 at the time set for morning wakeup, and also turn on aux heat until it's within the (typically not adjustable) 1-2ºF differential that is built-in for aux heat. A great way to spend extra money you don't need to.

 

[yeldogt]

Thanks. Outside unit is 2 ton, inside is 2 1/2 ton. I'm definitely going with a 2 stage unit and not single stage. I am also adding 2 vents to a room that isn't currently heated/cooled as well.



Thanks, that's good to know. I asked a couple of the companies that came out about Goodman and they said they said they don't install the basic goodman and only install Amana from the Goodman lines. Most of the companies carry 1 brand and Amana it seems.

I'm not pushing Goodman .... have anything to do with them .. have never installed one. I'm a bit of a HVAC geek ... and look over various equipment and ask question.

FYI -- you still want to make sure the unit is properly sized for the space .. and the only way to do that is with a heat load. What people don't understand is that when the outside temp gets towards the extreme design temp (hot or cold) the unit should be running constantly .... How many days does it hit 100 in our area? Not many -- now you don't want the AC to not cool your house .. but it will not be the end of the world if it can't keep the house at 70 for a couple hours in the midday sun. By designing it this way the unit will be running more -- and a smaller unit running longer is actually better for the unit ..comfort and efficiency.

With the addition of a two speed compressor -- you get the ability to run the unit longer when it's not near the extremes in temp -- again getting longer runs ... this is especially beneficial on mild humid days with AC and warmish days with the heat pump.

The controls are import -- some units run a program others (better) are controlled by the thermostat .. this can be part of the cost difference. Things like demand defrost .. all add cost and have a place in the mix.

Installing the larger coil inside is another strategy -- depending on the overall strategy. Is still the outside unit that's the unit size. Sometimes heat output becomes the controlling size requirement.

My last two houses I have put in the Carrier 5 speed -- step up from the 2 speed and not quite going full variable speed. It gets me a very low output allowing for constant fan operation and high efficient HP when the temps drop -- but it's overkill for many .... I have zoning.

 

[jshillin]

Some 2 stage factoids:
stage 1 is usually 2/3 of stage 2 (so a 2.5 ton ODU would be 1.65 tons low, 2.5 tons high). that would get you a little bit more total capacity than the 2 ton (good for those hot days, and the really cold days), but still keeps stage 1 below 2 tons, which means that the low cool can be set for an appropriate fan speed and be quieter, and since it will run longer, it will dehumidify your house better.
Changing size beyond 2.5 tons would likely be unwise without going to a VS/inverter system.

the longer run times in stage 1 often get you slightly better efficiency (same size heat exchangers doing less work = more efficiency) if the control strategy they chose is set up for it. otherwise you just get less noise. also due to the longer runtimes you get less cycling, which equates to fewer motor start/stops, which is good for equipment lifespan. hopefully they have a demand defrost on whatever you're quoted instead of a timer-only system - timer based systems often defrost unnecessarily, wasting energy.

you definitely need a heat-pump aware thermostat to maximize savings. simpler stats (even heat pump compatible ones) will engage the aux (strip) heat far too readily. Check the manufacturer literature for it.

This is a good read:
https://nest.com/support/article/What-is-Heat-Pump-Balance
Honeywell has it buried, but it's part of adaptive intelligent recovery, and the outdoor temp based lockouts you can configure. From what I've read both these systems will adjust the setback temp if it thinks it won't be able to recover and just not set back as far.

A cheap stat will engage the heat pump on stage 2 at the time set for morning wakeup, and also turn on aux heat until it's within the (typically not adjustable) 1-2ºF differential that is built-in for aux heat. A great way to spend extra money you don't need to.

I'm not pushing Goodman .... have anything to do with them .. have never installed one. I'm a bit of a HVAC geek ... and look over various equipment and ask question.

FYI -- you still want to make sure the unit is properly sized for the space .. and the only way to do that is with a heat load. What people don't understand is that when the outside temp gets towards the extreme design temp (hot or cold) the unit should be running constantly .... How many days does it hit 100 in our area? Not many -- now you don't want the AC to not cool your house .. but it will not be the end of the world if it can't keep the house at 70 for a couple hours in the midday sun. By designing it this way the unit will be running more -- and a smaller unit running longer is actually better for the unit ..comfort and efficiency.

With the addition of a two speed compressor -- you get the ability to run the unit longer when it's not near the extremes in temp -- again getting longer runs ... this is especially beneficial on mild humid days with AC and warmish days with the heat pump.

The controls are import -- some units run a program others (better) are controlled by the thermostat .. this can be part of the cost difference. Things like demand defrost .. all add cost and have a place in the mix.

Installing the larger coil inside is another strategy -- depending on the overall strategy. Is still the outside unit that's the unit size. Sometimes heat output becomes the controlling size requirement.

My last two houses I have put in the Carrier 5 speed -- step up from the 2 speed and not quite going full variable speed. It gets me a very low output allowing for constant fan operation and high efficient HP when the temps drop -- but it's overkill for many .... I have zoning.

Thanks guys. That's a lot of good information. Keep it coming, I'm using this as a learning experience and trying to get EXACTLY what I need.

I'm glad thermostats came up, the guy yesterday said I can keep the same basic as basic can be thermostat, but I didn't think that would be sufficient with anything above the base single stage setup.

At this moment in time I'm leaning heavily toward the 2 stage inverter setup in 18 SEER.

One thing that does ****, my electric is through the borough and not an electric company to receive any rebates.

 

[yeldogt]

Thanks guys. That's a lot of good information. Keep it coming, I'm using this as a learning experience and trying to get EXACTLY what I need.

I'm glad thermostats came up, the guy yesterday said I can keep the same basic as basic can be thermostat, but I didn't think that would be sufficient with anything above the base single stage setup.

At this moment in time I'm leaning heavily toward the 2 stage inverter setup in 18 SEER.

One thing that does ****, my electric is through the borough and not an electric company to receive any rebates.

Controls are constantly changing -- have to ask. Goodman had very simple controls ... but it looks like they now have upgraded. Some furnace/ HP's have a built in algorithm -- they start and run for a while and if they have not satisfied for a set about of time they increase the output. The thermostat is acting as a limit switch ... the newest controls understand when you bump it up you want output. Same with defrost on the HP -- some run for a set time and go into defrost .. even if they don't need to defrost. The better unit only defrost when needed .. and maybe more on a cold damp night. Defrosting uses energy that is wasted. If it can use a simple thermostat -- it's not giving you all that it can. I would get one that has a smart thermostat. The thermostat knows outside and inside temps and controls.

 

[firebirdparts]

Does anybody have a realistic explanation of how a leak would stop the compressor from running? I can see where it might be defrosting a lot, but if you put a defrost board in yourself, you ought have to some idea what you are looking at.

 

[Done That]

Does anybody have a realistic explanation of how a leak would stop the compressor from running? I can see where it might be defrosting a lot, but if you put a defrost board in yourself, you ought have to some idea what you are looking at.

Most York boards monitor the low and high pressure switches. Loss of charge will trip the low pressure switch, and the logic usually allows this to happen like 3 times within a given Y call and then the board goes into a hard lockout to protect the compressor/system.

 

[jshillin]

Does anybody have a realistic explanation of how a leak would stop the compressor from running? I can see where it might be defrosting a lot, but if you put a defrost board in yourself, you ought have to some idea what you are looking at.

Don't know if it's right or not, but they said the pressure was just low enough that my low pressure switch was keeping it from running all of the time.

 

[Done That]

Don't know if it's right or not, but they said the pressure was just low enough that my low pressure switch was keeping it from running all of the time.

Yep. And the situation is made worse as outdoor temperature drops due to the pressure/temperature relationship of the refrigerant. The unusually cold weather this year in parts of the country makes this rear it's head.

Some boards have logic to ignore the low pressure switch during transients like going into and out of defrost, as well as during very low ambients to increase the averging time or other tricks to help prevent nuissance lockouts. And, some dont....

 

[86turbodsl]

This company is only charging $65/lb for R22 which doesn't seem bad considering some of the $ figures I've heard.

You guys are making me feel real good about buying a 30lb jug of R22 back a while ago....

 

[jshillin]

You guys are making me feel real good about buying a 30lb jug of R22 back a while ago....

That was smart, 1 place told me $150/lb and I just told them to leave...

 

[86turbodsl]

That was smart, 1 place told me $150/lb and I just told them to leave...

Retail is only $500 ish right now. Need a 608 cert though.

Sent from my LG-TP450 using Tapatalk

 

[jshillin]

Just had the first company out that installs Goodman. The guy was very knowledgeable and really gave me good info, but he was way higher in prices that the others. He included labor in his 10 year warranty and that adds up to some of the cost, but I think he's a little high yet.

Goodman
3 Ton 16 SEER Two-Stage DSZC16 Heat Pump and MBVC Modular Air Blower
$8400

Goodman
3 Ton 18 SEER Two-Stage DSZC18 Heat Pump and MBVC Modular Air Blower
$9000

He's the 1st one that said I need a larger unit for my downstairs also. My downstairs is right at 1600 square feet with 12 vents currently, but I'm adding to more to make it 14. He suggested 3 ton at minimum and most others said 2 stage 2 or 2 1/2 would be best.

 

[yeldogt]

That's why you need to get a load done ... I have done well insulated spray foam houses out to 1k sf per ton ... is the current system working. Adding vents does not increase SF -- it actually allows what you have to work better. If you unit can cool and heat the space with vents .. you don't want or need a larger unit.

"the way we always do it" .. will get you an oversize unit.