It heats fine, definitely better on the more open side of my house though. I'm pretty sure that problem is with the duct work though. One side of the downstairs is the living room, den, kitchen, 1/2 bath and computer room, which is all all a fairly open area and heats fine. The other side is 3 bedrooms and a bathroom that is always several degrees cooler in the winter. In the summer it seems to cool that area fine though. This last guy also stated that I most likely need a 2nd return because I only have 1 16"x20" return currently.
Heat pumps....
- Thread starter jshillin
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It heats fine, definitely better on the more open side of my house though. I'm pretty sure that problem is with the duct work though. One side of the downstairs is the living room, den, kitchen, 1/2 bath and computer room, which is all all a fairly open area and heats fine. The other side is 3 bedrooms and a bathroom that is always several degrees cooler in the winter. In the summer it seems to cool that area fine though. This last guy also stated that I most likely need a 2nd return because I only have 1 16"x20" return currently.
I have a hard time buying a 3 ton being the right move, unless it's a variable speed unit and you're buying it for heating. my friend's CT house has a 3T VS for the entire 3 floor townhouse. if you need 3 tons per floor i think you need to invest in air sealing and insulation instead.
I like the 2.5 ton option because it gets you a stage 1 thats substantially smaller than your current single stage setup (1.65T vs 2T), and stage 2 will give you more heat in the winter. this seems like a reasonable compromise.
Going to a 3T gives you 2T on low and 3T on high. no additional benefits for cooling/dehumidifying, extra cost, and an extra ton for winter heating. likely this system will run in stage 1 all the time except for the cold of winter, making the spend hard to justify.
86turbodsl
Well-known member
Agree on the manual j. I have a well insulated spray foamed 3000ft house on a 3t pump. In Michigan too.
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Once a room by room load is done -- you know what each room needs. The existing ductwork is measured to see if it can deliver what's needed. Without enough returns -- you have to pressurize that area and push .. that affects how much air will go into a given spot.
That's why I like zoning .. especially with the newest VS equipment. Most houses have unequal loads that change throughout the day. A 4 square colonial with a rear kitchen family room addition (typical on the east coast) has three zones. Sounds like you have two on the main floor and the second for the other unit. The newer equipment can modulate down and direct what's needed to each area .. the newest stuff is slick.
A little more... The wife works with a bunch of women and one her her co-workers husband has an HVAC business. I talked to him tonight about it and I told him what I wanted. He said he doesn't like to install 2 stage units and doesn't like installing anything over 16 SEER. He said all of the digital boards go bad far too often. I'm going to have him come out, but it's different than what I've heard from everyone else and the guys on this board.
Let me guess, life was better "back in the day", eh? I suppose the mercury t-stats are the best thing that "the man" took from us?
He must think that inverters are scary and just have tons of problems. he's probably never owned a VFD driven 3 phase anything.
Generally speaking, 2 stage systems are supremely simple. the motor doesn't even change speed, it's just unloader valves that control if it's using the whole scroll or most of it.
Really, ALL of the digital boards go bad far too often?? A wise man once told me not to be suspect of statements including all or none.
I don't like to hire people to install things they think are bad. I find their prophecies to be self fulfilling. I'd not go with that guy - personally, I wouldn't waste his time or mine having him come out.
Actually, it might be fun. I bet he quotes an oversized system, or says that R22 is the way to go!
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Its funny to see so much hate for high efficiency heat pump systems. If your installer knew the right way to do things you would be a happy camper.
My system doesnt kick in aux heat until low single digit temps. High efficiency and great insulation in the house.
Edit: manual J is very important. The good companies should insist on this without you asking. Then a manual d or at least the duct calc to make sure its right.
My system doesnt kick in aux heat until low single digit temps. High efficiency and great insulation in the house.
Edit: manual J is very important. The good companies should insist on this without you asking. Then a manual d or at least the duct calc to make sure its right.
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Since the newest system are running much more --- they are in effect constantly circulating air -- they balance out. Zoning helps when doing additions where the addition may be better insulated -- or you want to have different temps. In larger houses it's a way of saving energy -- why cool the downstairs and great room when you only want the second floor. In older houses with less insulation and undersized ducts (common) zoning really helps -- the dampers can modulate and the blowers match what's needed -- just a few years ago this was not possible.
This is a common situation ... ask how many he has installed ?? The guys that don't install them .. don't know the benefits. When I was looking for a new unit for my vacation place two years ago -- one of the carrier dealers had only installed one Greenspeed and two of the five speed (same house). The other one had over 50 of the five speeds and 25 Greenspeeds .. the owner had put one in his own house ...... guess who I hired?
Check out the warranty -- I believe with the Amana it's all covered for 10 years.
He is going to quote me a 16 SEER single stage. I made the call to him, so I will at least listen to what he has to say and talk to him. I believe he uses TRANE.
None of them have performed a Manual J yet...
My house is right at 20 years old, so the insulation is decent, but not great. I know the current heating systems were thrown in here as cheaply as possible and I've had to go down in the crawl space and fix the ducts several times over the years. The up stairs unit is still working fine since it is used much less than the downstairs, hoping to get several more years about of it, but I'm pretty sure the return is too small for that one also.
He has only installed a few and he told me that. He said the 1st one was in his sons house, 18 SEER, 2 stage and he said it went through 5 boards in a year... He also said that he has a 23 SEER in his home. Both of them have propane as Aux heat and I'm going to be electric only. Part of what it boils down to is that he lives 45 minutes away and doesn't want to deal with it if it breaks. I understand what he's saying and I'm sure he'd cut me a good price, but it's not what I want.
You are right on the warranty, it's 10 years parts and as long as I own it on the compressor. If the compressor goes bad as long as I own it, they replace the entire outside unit under warranty. I'd still have to pay labor and refrigerant though.
The more and more I read, the more i lean toward the 18 SEER 2 stage inverter from Amana... Going to talk to the guy more about it tomorrow that gave me the quote.
I'm trying to understand the 2 stage and inverter -- my memory is the two stage scroll compressors don't use an inverter. The rotary staged do .. and teh full VS as well
This is the one I'm looking at/leaning toward.
AVZC18 - Heat Pumps
High-Efficiency Heat Pump with Inverter Technology
UP TO 19 SEER | 10 HSPF
ComfortNet™ Communications Systems compatible
Variable-speed swing and scroll compressors
https://www.amana-hac.com/products/heat-pumps/avzc18
a scroll works like this (simplified)
A 2 stage scroll has 2 ports (for mechanical balance) at the halfway point so it is effectively smaller. these are switched on/off to open/close them. adjusting the capacity of the compressor, well, reduces work done, which makes it smaller. the motor stays running at the same speed, so switching from stage 1 (ports open) to stage 2 (ports closed) has no meaningful impact on the compressor as far as wear is concerned.
a VS (inverter) scroll literally changes the speed of the motor, like the gas pedal in your car. they will program in protections to make sure oil flow is maintained, RPMs that cause unwanted harmonics are skipped, etc.
Most of the challenge in a VS system isn't varying the speed, it's ensuring adequate oil return and refrigerant volume flow - a function that has nothing to do with the refrigeration process, but does have to do with keeping the compressor motor cool and bearings lubricated.
Just got another quote.
AMANA 20 SEER Inverted 2 Ton AVZC20024 Heat Pump
AMANA AVPVC24C14 Air Handler
Communicating Thermostat CTK04, Materials and Labor
$8,995
After the discount, it's about $1500 higher than the 18 SEER Inverted.
Not sure if the extra SEER is worth the jump in price.
AMANA 20 SEER Inverted 2 Ton AVZC20024 Heat Pump
AMANA AVPVC24C14 Air Handler
Communicating Thermostat CTK04, Materials and Labor
$8,995
After the discount, it's about $1500 higher than the 18 SEER Inverted.
Not sure if the extra SEER is worth the jump in price.
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SEER is the cooling efficiency.
HSPF is the heating seasonal performace factor or efficiency.
If you are mostly worried about heating costs then compare the HSPF rating between the two models.
From their website it looks like both are rated 10.0 HSPF, so no added efficiency in heating mode....your dealer may have better insight.
HSPF is the heating seasonal performace factor or efficiency.
If you are mostly worried about heating costs then compare the HSPF rating between the two models.
From their website it looks like both are rated 10.0 HSPF, so no added efficiency in heating mode....your dealer may have better insight.
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With inverter systems there's usually a massive improvement in part-load efficiency due to it being able to run at a lower output instead of cycling at 2/3 or 100% load. this seems to be reflected in utility bills. it doesn't buy you anything during the times you need maximum output - other than the VS heat pump being able to go beyond 100% and avoid aux heat use.
Anyone take issue with that assessment?
Anyone take issue with that assessment?
For a different eample, York has in their Affinity Line up:
YZH 18 SEER / 11 HSPF
YZV 20 SEER / 11 HSPF
That jump from 10 HSPF to 11 would likely save some cash over time in your neck of the woods. In FL, the 20 SEER would likely have a good ROI versus the 18 SEER since it's primarily used in AC mode.
YZH 18 SEER / 11 HSPF
YZV 20 SEER / 11 HSPF
That jump from 10 HSPF to 11 would likely save some cash over time in your neck of the woods. In FL, the 20 SEER would likely have a good ROI versus the 18 SEER since it's primarily used in AC mode.
He has quotes on two different Amana Inverter units. I'm simply suggesting he focus on the heating efficiency (which is equal) and not the cooling efficiency (20 seer versus 18) based on his location.
I don't disagree, but the part load efficiency is always going to be a derivative of the max efficiency....so the higher your rated HSPF the beter.
a scroll works like this (simplified)
A 2 stage scroll has 2 ports (for mechanical balance) at the halfway point so it is effectively smaller. these are switched on/off to open/close them. adjusting the capacity of the compressor, well, reduces work done, which makes it smaller. the motor stays running at the same speed, so switching from stage 1 (ports open) to stage 2 (ports closed) has no meaningful impact on the compressor as far as wear is concerned.
a VS (inverter) scroll literally changes the speed of the motor, like the gas pedal in your car. they will program in protections to make sure oil flow is maintained, RPMs that cause unwanted harmonics are skipped, etc.
Most of the challenge in a VS system isn't varying the speed, it's ensuring adequate oil return and refrigerant volume flow - a function that has nothing to do with the refrigeration process, but does have to do with keeping the compressor motor cool and bearings lubricated.
Yes -- I understand. But the two speed is not an inverter
That is not a 2 speed unit ... that is a full variable speed system .. much much better.
You would have to compare specifications --- often the efficiency factor is the same but the higher priced unit maintains that efficiency as it get colder. Mine has a larger compressor coil This may matter with a HP when no NG is available ... you don't want to use resistance .. if you could get a HP to work in colder weather. Mine will work down to 0 .. has no resistance backup.
They (AMANA) use a swing compressor -- logical because Daikin is a huge maker of mini split and city split systems using those compressors. That's why I say that this is not the Goodman of old. Ask what's the difference -- I'm sure it'sthe controls and see if the size of the unit is different .. any quieter
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Thanks. That helps me understand.
I'm pretty sure my current heat pump is in the 10-12 SEER range and no idea on HSPF, so anything should be a big increase.
do you only use the heat pump for heat ? backup is electric?
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Yep, it's all electric, the heat pump and aux heat are electric. The current air handler has 15kw aux heat kit in it.
I also have a propane fireplace that I installed as soon as I bought the house so I could still have heat when the electric was out or if it got too cold for the heat pump to keep up. So we use it a good bit when it's really cold.
Agreed. it's always good to look at the spec sheet and see what it says it does at 5F (or -5F or whatever the low end is). this is an important number when comparing similar ton rated systems than the 40F number which always looks good.
2 stage: http://tech.lennoxintl.com/C03e7o14l/VIu12Ch2uV/ehb_xp16_1710.pdf
VS:http://tech.lennoxintl.com/C03e7o14l/VIu12Ch2uV/ehb_xp20_1710.pdf
ok looks like the low temp is measured at -17F dry bulb.
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I'm looking at the spec sheet, but not exactly sure how to read it...
Talked back to the guy that I got the 1st set of quotes from.
I had him change the quote a bit, getting the Amana AVZC18 3 ton 18 SEER Inverter setup with the Comfortnet Thermostat, AVPEC air handler with aluminum coils, running new piping for the R410a(some others wanted to reuse same lines), new condensate pump, adding a 2nd return and adding a humidifier for $8k
I had him change the quote a bit, getting the Amana AVZC18 3 ton 18 SEER Inverter setup with the Comfortnet Thermostat, AVPEC air handler with aluminum coils, running new piping for the R410a(some others wanted to reuse same lines), new condensate pump, adding a 2nd return and adding a humidifier for $8k
not as much breakdown in the performance as I would've liked to see - sorry. i got overly excited about that one.
That sounds better than the 10k I think you mentioned previously. LOL the comfortnet thermostat apparently is the same display unit as the honeywell prestige HD going by the pictures on their site. I'm surprised, but not. it does run linux...
EDIT: dug a little further and they are literally using the prestige/redlink product line but with a custom EIM (I assume???) instead of the standalone setup. I imagine it'll work just fine.
The spec sheet sounds OK. I'd like to see a little better low temp COP but you're also saving money on the up front side. I find it curious they talk about it at 70% and 100% demand. after looking at the wiring diagram, I wonder if this is like the Bosch inverter ODU where it watches pressure and only has Y1/W1 connections.
What humidifier are you going with? something steam I assume, given the heat pump?
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Thanks for checking into that for me. Do the specs seem fine? The humidifier is a simple one, but my house is so dry it should help a good bit. It's a AprilAire Model 400M.
I've got a 600 bypass on a 80% gas furnace (135-150F typical DAT reading I think, i could double check), and I'm unimpressed. my house is very dry, but I know it leaks. heatpumps typically have lower discharge temps, and most wisdom i've heard is to do steam with heatpumps. my fav is the field controls S2000 unit with an RO drinking water system. done two installs so far with friends of that setup and basically your proposed thermostat (Prestige IAQ) which should still have a humidifier terminal so you don't need the humidistat separate, and it works perfectly(one in a 3.5k sqft house, one in a 1.3k sqft). yes it uses more power, but it also actually gets the job done. My 600 CANNOT keep up, but its still better than nothing.
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Runs ClimateTalk protocol on RS485 physical layer: R, C, data 1, data 2
CTK04: It's a bit of a dated design, for example I don't like that you have to buy a separate RedLink hub to get remote access. If you don't care about that, it more than does the job to configure and run the system. Has no legacy 24V terminals, 4-wire communicating hookup only.
Love the thread........
Reminds me of the days home ownership on the east coast living with a heat pump...........hated every minute of the winter. “Cold heat”, high energy cost and high maintenance....never again. One home we had oil backup, the heat pump never ran in the house.......other home the heat pump never shut off
Reminds me of the days home ownership on the east coast living with a heat pump...........hated every minute of the winter. “Cold heat”, high energy cost and high maintenance....never again. One home we had oil backup, the heat pump never ran in the house.......other home the heat pump never shut off
It's our electric company in eastern PA ....
Love the thread........
Reminds me of the days home ownership on the east coast living with a heat pump...........hated every minute of the winter. “Cold heat”, high energy cost and high maintenance....never again. One home we had oil backup, the heat pump never ran in the house.......other home the heat pump never shut off
Much has changed .. except the expensive electric. With NG not available in many areas the newest heat pumps combined with proper insulation can be all you need ... and forget about propane or oil. You would be surprised how warm the air even when temps outside approach zero -- nothing like the old systems.
LS6 Tommy
Well-known member
Because it's too cold in the winter to get decent heat without spinning the **** out of your electric meter from running the resistance heat. EVen then , they don't always keep up.
Tommy