Heat pumps....

[LS6 Tommy]

I work behind the counter at the HVAC wholesale house. We sell Cliplight brand Superseal and Flex-inject. Over the last 5 years we have sold cases upon cases of it to literally every contractor within 50 miles of here. It works great for setups exactly like yours. It's cheap enough to get you by. You obviously know you need to replace the whole system and you're fine with that....which is a step in the right direction. On the once a year toppoff type leaks it works most of the time. I feel like it will work in yours, I'd do it to my own old R22 heat pump in hopes to borrow some time. I'm not so fond of the Copeland 2 stage compressors, I've had to fill warranty on several mechanical failures. I really like the inverter setups in the newer 17 and up SEER stuff. I'll be going that route when my kicks the bucket.

Coincidentally I put a compresser in mine too about 18 months ago. ONLY because it was warrantied.

Again, you CANNOT top off R22 if the leak is bigger than 15%, which his is if the LPCO is shutting the unit down...

Tommy

 

[jshillin]

Make sure you factor in the resistance costs ... At my weekend place I'm PECO ... not cheap power.

I don't have PECO, I'm closer to Western MD. The little borough I live in manages all of our electric. They bid it out to the lowest bidder every couple years so we do have some of the lowest electric cost around the area. They also handle all of the water and sewer, but we do pay a lot more for that, so it balances out.

The guy that was supposed to show up today, didn't show up, so I only have 1 more to talk to on Monday and then I'll pull the trigger once I get that quote back.

 

[jshillin]

Just received another option from a guy I turned down. I can't find a whole lot of info on the Bosch Inverter setups though.

1-Bosch 18 Seer Inverter Heatpump 36HDN1
1-Bosch Air Handler BVA-36WN1
Condensate pump
New Lineset
1-Pro 8000 stat,

I honestly think this is a slight step down from the Amana. This one is 9.5 HSPF and the Amana is 10.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

The Bosch BOVA/BVA system sounds pretty slick - the ODU watches temps and pressures and adjusts the compressor capacity accordingly. it's my understanding you can stage it by basically adjusting the heat you provide/extract (depending on heat/cool setting) with fan speed alone.

 

[yeldogt]

The Bosch BOVA/BVA system sounds pretty slick - the ODU watches temps and pressures and adjusts the compressor capacity accordingly. it's my understanding you can stage it by basically adjusting the heat you provide/extract (depending on heat/cool setting) with fan speed alone.

It looks like Bosch is pairing with Mitsubishi for the compressor. The information I see shows 2/3/4/5 ton air handles and 3/5 ton condensers. They have an impressive -17 operating temp. They show it tied into a bosch boiler for added capacity if needed. It will also modulate down to 25% and will give you 110% if needed.

It's all a question of what fits best into climate/ house and the all important budget. I'm actually going to look into these and see how they compare to the Carrier 5 speed.

When I went looking two years ago. The full modulating Carrier Greenspeed with scroll compressor would modulate down to 40% of capacity -- The less costly and slightly less efficient 5 speed unit with the Toshiba rotary compressor could go down to 25% of capacity in stage 1 .. stage 5 was 100%. For my house with zoning I wanted the 25% ... I'm surprised how much in runs on stage 1. Fully modulating is great -- see how low it goes. Most two speeds unit are around 70% .. not 50-%

 

[u3b3rg33k]

It looks like Bosch is pairing with Mitsubishi for the compressor. The information I see shows 2/3/4/5 ton air handles and 3/5 ton condensers. They have an impressive -17 operating temp. They show it tied into a bosch boiler for added capacity if needed. It will also modulate does to 25% and will give you 110% if needed.

It's all a question of what fits best into climate/ house and the all important budget. I'm actually going to look into these and see how they compare to the Carrier 5 speed.

When I went looking two years ago. The full modulating Carrier Greenspeed with scroll compressor would modulate down to 40% of capacity -- The less costly and slightly less efficient 5 speed unit with the Toshiba rotary compressor could go down to 25% of capacity in stage 1 .. stage 5 was 100%. For my house with zoning I wanted the 25% ... I'm surprised how much in runs on stage 1. Fully modulating is great -- see how low it goes. Most two speeds unit are around 70% .. not 50-%

The low temp operation and low % modulation are big deals to me. who cares what the HSPF rating is if it shuts down at -5F?

 

[yeldogt]

The low temp operation and low % modulation are big deals to me. who cares what the HSPF rating is if it shuts down at -5F?

Reason why you really have to dig deep into the specifications -- understand the + and - of each system. And also understand -- it's a moving target .. things change.

My Carrier 5 speed is designed to operate down to about 2 degrees -- but it will not start if the temp is under 10. Evidently, this is measured at the compressor -- because mine has operated when other thermostats said zero. It's obviously running all all the time once temps get down low anyway -- but, this could be an issue with a power outage.

In the mid atlantic -- I need low AC for those cool humid days. Now that the HP's work so well I have put them into the houses with boilers .. to both smooth out the heating and to work on shoulder season when I don't want the boiler to fire up for 10 min of heat.

 

[Gila Monster]

Again, you CANNOT top off R22 if the leak is bigger than 15%, which his is if the LPCO is shutting the unit down...

Tommy

Who cares? Its the EPA.

Wouldn't surprise me if they change the rule anyway.

You're sure as hell not going to get caught.

Have you ever gone 1mph over the speed limit?

 

[jshillin]

The Bosch BOVA/BVA system sounds pretty slick - the ODU watches temps and pressures and adjusts the compressor capacity accordingly. it's my understanding you can stage it by basically adjusting the heat you provide/extract (depending on heat/cool setting) with fan speed alone.

It looks like Bosch is pairing with Mitsubishi for the compressor. The information I see shows 2/3/4/5 ton air handles and 3/5 ton condensers. They have an impressive -17 operating temp. They show it tied into a bosch boiler for added capacity if needed. It will also modulate does to 25% and will give you 110% if needed.

It's all a question of what fits best into climate/ house and the all important budget. I'm actually going to look into these and see how they compare to the Carrier 5 speed.

When I went looking two years ago. The full modulating Carrier Greenspeed with scroll compressor would modulate down to 40% of capacity -- The less costly and slightly less efficient 5 speed unit with the Toshiba rotary compressor could go down to 25% of capacity in stage 1 .. stage 5 was 100%. For my house with zoning I wanted the 25% ... I'm surprised how much in runs on stage 1. Fully modulating is great -- see how low it goes. Most two speeds unit are around 70% .. not 50-%

Thanks guys... Are you saying that this might be the better way to go over over the Amana inverter? This is about $1000 more expensive than the Amana. The warranty is 10 years on the Bosch, where the Amana has 10 years on everything except the compressor, it's lifetime and they replace the entire outside unit if the compressor breaks.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

If it were me I would try the bosch, because I like to do non-standard things and that much automatic modulation would make my life easier. since I've not played with it, I won't advise you to do so. This would be one of those "thump the spec sheet" moments. does it have compelling features/operating envelope over the Amana you're looking at?

On paper at least the 5 ton bosch modulates down to 25% (5*.25=1.25 tons), which if you were to stage an air handler right, could get you plenty of winter output without being oversized. the caveat is i've never even been near one of the auto-modulating units so i have no idea how they behave real world, but the hearsay is pretty good so far.

bosch literature:
https://www.bosch-climate.us/produc...-heat-pumps/inverter-ducted-split-system.html

btw the -17F rating was on a lennox inverter unit (XP20), not the bosch. Edit: realized that's dash 17, not negative 17.
you can drill-down here (click 60Hz)
http://www.lennoxcommercial.com/technical-documents/product-specifications.asp

Heating Mode (Low Temperature Protection) -
Outdoor unit will not operate in the heating mode when the outdoor temperature is at or below –4°F. If the unit is operating and the outdoor temperature drops below –4°F, the unit will continue to operate until the room thermostat is satis ed or the outdoor temperature drops to –15°F.

also says this:

• Low Temperature Heating Ratings - 17 °F db/15° F wb outdoor air temperature and 70 °F db entering indoor coil air.

so what's the real minimum temp? dunno.

also noticed this at the bottom of the spec sheet:

To convert HSPF from Region IV to Region V - Divide by 1.15.

so... HSPF is regional?

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Who cares? Its the EPA.

Wouldn't surprise me if they change the rule anyway.

You're sure as hell not going to get caught.

Have you ever gone 1mph over the speed limit?

Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with you. As I've said before, I don't post to point the finger at the people asking the questions, just to supply info.

Either way, any "Pro" that would be willing to do it that way would be escorted off of my property as it indicates to me that they are a hack. What other "shortcuts" are they taking?

Tommy

 

[yeldogt]

Thanks guys... Are you saying that this might be the better way to go over over the Amana inverter? This is about $1000 more expensive than the Amana. The warranty is 10 years on the Bosch, where the Amana has 10 years on everything except the compressor, it's lifetime and they replace the entire outside unit if the compressor breaks.

I think you need to look it all over -- see where one excels over the other. Or is equal.

My comments above in many threads was not to recommend Goodman/AMANA ... Just to explain that much has changed with the company. While they still provide a large builder grade product -- they also have developed new lines for the top end that should be looked into.

Years ago most of the big manufacturers had a (for purchase) parts and labor warranty that took out whatever the standard warranty was to what was normally 10 years. My local Carrier dealer built it into his price -- it was a good deal for both parties. The heat exchanger would often be 20 years and compressor was 12 ... both excluding labor and sometimes prorated. They now all seem use a third party warranty company ... Goodman/Amana came back and do the warranty in house ... Think it's why they picked up so many established installation companies who use it as there middle of the road product.. it shows a commitment.

 

[jshillin]

Thanks guys. I'm looking at specs on all of them, but not exactly sure how to read some of it. I can't tell how far down the Amana modulates, how cold either will run on the heat pump before aux kicks in, etc.

 

[yeldogt]

Thanks guys. I'm looking at specs on all of them, but not exactly sure how to read some of it. I can't tell how far down the Amana modulates, how cold either will run on the heat pump before aux kicks in, etc.

They will not give you the aux -- that's up to you to program based on electric rate and BTU's coming form the HP.

I don't even have Aux backup on mine -- my Carrier units will never be more expensive to run vs the resistance of AUX. They are always about 2.5 times more heat for same electric usage ... and that's at 2 degrees.

It was only the older units that had the 40 degree set points -- with older HP's it was not about costs .... they simply were not designed to heat at lower outside temps. Todays low operating HP's are designed to heat down into the lower temps -- the idea is not to ever use the high cost resistance .. that's the point.

 

[jshillin]

They will not give you the aux -- that's up to you to program based on electric rate and BTU's coming form the HP.

I don't even have Aux backup on mine -- my Carrier units will never be more expensive to run vs the resistance of AUX. They are always about 2.5 times more heat for same electric usage ... and that's at 2 degrees.

It was only the older units that had the 40 degree set points -- with older HP's it was not about costs .... they simply were not designed to heat at lower outside temps. Todays low operating HP's are designed to head down into the lower temp -- the idea is not to every use the high cost resistance .. that's the point.

Thanks. That makes sense. 1 more question... Can you tell what % the Amana unit will modulate down to? I spent hours looking at specs and don't see that listed any where. I may just be reading it wrong though.

 

[yeldogt]

Thanks. That makes sense. 1 more question... Can you tell what % the Amana unit will modulate down to? I spent hours looking at specs and don't see that listed any where. I may just be reading it wrong though.

They do seem to burry it ... I'm on the road and can't look at the tables to see if I can see a min and max. Try calling them ... ask for technical. e-mails always get rejected. If you can get to one -- they will give you a load of information.

I spoke to a guy from Carrier -- could not get him off the phone. MOSt people call to complain -- or to fix something ... few call to ask for information

 

[Done That]

From what I can see 30%. Also see -5f rating point in their extended capacities tables.

Google "daikin inverter faqs final clean" and you should get a .pdf to review as the top search.

The Daikin, Amana, and Goodman inverter splits are the same units wearing different badges.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

We use the Daikin units at work a lot. they have been trouble free for us.

Tommy

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Amana is the same company as Goodman. Goodman makes low-end, trouble-prone stuff.

Yawn. Come up with a new line about Goodman equip already folks.
I come across more junk tranewreck/lennox/carrier stuff than Goodman stuff .

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

It's really evident when you compare a Goodman system next to a Trane or Rheem. The Goodman sheet metal is paper thin, the Goodman fans are louder, and the Goodman compressors are louder. Even the Goodmans with "Copeland Scroll" compressors are still somehow louder than other brands also utilizing Copeland Scrolls. My best guess is that it's a special value-engineered line for Goodman from Copeland.

And yet if you do basic maintenance on a Goodman condensing unit or furnace it will run for 20 years just like a rhuud/theme or weather king will.

 

[American Locomotive]

Yawn. Come up with a new line about Goodman equip already folks.
I come across more junk tranewreck/lennox/carrier stuff than Goodman stuff .

Seen and handled enough Goodman garbage to know that's not true. Sheet metal is thinner and rattles, fan and motors run hot, are poorly balanced and vibrate, compressors are louder, controls are inferior and the units are typically much harder to service compared to others. Plus, Goodman typically attracts the lowest quality and shadiest installers because they peddle their junk to any and everyone for dirt cheap. There's a reason why Goodman got the reputation they have, and it isn't because "they made stuff as good as Trane".

Now, I will concede the newer Daikin-built minisplits and heat pump units are likely quite fine units, but I still would not trust a Goodman dealer unless they're a multi-brand operation that also installs higher end brands like Trane.

 

[truckman5000]

we install the bosch
no issues
id spend 1k more instead of the amana,

 

[yeldogt]

we install the bosch
no issues
id spend 1k more instead of the amana,

There is not a lot of info on them .... where are the parts made .. who makes the compressors and controls? They look like fine units.

 

[yeldogt]

Seen and handled enough Goodman garbage to know that's not true. Sheet metal is thinner and rattles, fan and motors run hot, are poorly balanced and vibrate, compressors are louder, controls are inferior and the units are typically much harder to service compared to others. Plus, Goodman typically attracts the lowest quality and shadiest installers because they peddle their junk to any and everyone for dirt cheap. There's a reason why Goodman got the reputation they have, and it isn't because "they made stuff as good as Trane".

Now, I will concede the newer Daikin-built minisplits and heat pump units are likely quite fine units, but I still would not trust a Goodman dealer unless they're a multi-brand operation that also installs higher end brands like Trane.

All you say is true ... 10+ years ago. I have no idea how the low end Goodman builder grade stuff matches up to others builder grade today. The carrier lower end stuff I used in my rentals was really not builder grade. Carrier sold that under another name .... most of the majors had a line/brand for the builder stuff. I wonder how Daikin is picking the contractors for the Daikin brand products .. because they need quality installers -- especially with the warranty.

Years ago we had a group of local guys that moonlighted -- they worked for the local utility. Weekends and days off -- nights. They used a variety of equipment -- they did some of my rentals ... and did fine job. I'm sure they could not buy every line as some are "dealer only" stuff -- I'm sure they installed Goodman can't remember..... I had them do ICP.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Seen and handled enough Goodman garbage to know that's not true. Sheet metal is thinner and rattles, fan and motors run hot, are poorly balanced and vibrate, compressors are louder, controls are inferior and the units are typically much harder to service compared to others. Plus, Goodman typically attracts the lowest quality and shadiest installers because they peddle their junk to any and everyone for dirt cheap. There's a reason why Goodman got the reputation they have, and it isn't because "they made stuff as good as Trane".

Now, I will concede the newer Daikin-built minisplits and heat pump units are likely quite fine units, but I still would not trust a Goodman dealer unless they're a multi-brand operation that also installs higher end brands like Trane.

I wouldn't bet the farm on that chief.
I've been doing this a lot of years as a licensed contractor.
Anytime you want to make a trip to the Omaha Nebraska area let me know,I'll give you a guided tour of all the 20 plus year old Goodman I've installed that's still running.
I'll also show you some 20 plus year old Duncan stuff I've installed.
So let me know the date,and I'll free up my calender to acomidate ya!

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Well yes as a matter of fact as I've stated numerous times on here.
I've also sold rhuud/rheem/weather king in the past,I've also sold Ducane and trane/american standard andLennox in the past.
I've ne we been a carrier/bryant dealer .
And ive serviced pretty much every other brand installed by other contractors within a 50 mile radius of omaha ne.

 

[yeldogt]

Well yes as a matter of fact as I've stated numerous times on here.
I've also sold rhuud/rheem/weather king in the past,I've also sold Ducane and trane/american standard andLennox in the past.
I've ne we been a carrier/bryant dealer .
And ive serviced pretty much every other brand installed by other contractors within a 50 mile radius of omaha ne.

IMO there is more that's the same VS what's different ... within the brands. Each manufacturer has gone down a road that they should not have, and encountered problems that tarnished the brand. It's hard to pick out in any given time what's the best within a given need.

I went with the Carrier Five Speed. First --- I wanted the Carrier Zoning (The Infinity Zoning is excellent). Second -- The Five Speed was a perfect fit at a cheaper price VS going up to the full VS. The Greenspeed actually had me a little concerned with a few bugs they were having. Trane uses the refrigerant to cool the inverter vs Carrier using air (they had overheating) ... Daikinis looks to be going with refrigerant cooling. The Trane VS compressors are so big -- no place to put them.

The Daikin and Bosch units look interesting.

 

[jshillin]

From what I can see 30%. Also see -5f rating point in their extended capacities tables.

Google "daikin inverter faqs final clean" and you should get a .pdf to review as the top search.

The Daikin, Amana, and Goodman inverter splits are the same units wearing different badges.

Thanks. That definitely helps!! It has me leaning toward the Amana unit again. I can't find much worthwhile info on the Bosch units and the guy that quoted me on it wants 3 times as much as the other guy for adding a return and humidifier. He also only wants to install a very simple thermostat when I specifically requested a better one on 2 different conversations.

 

[Done That]

The Amana/Daikin is a pretty solid machine, have run this one in the lab for some time. May have to find a place for it at my house soon!

Yeldogt is correct, refrigerant cooled...you can see the loop over the board in the photo.

My recollection is Bosch bought Florida Heat Pump and got into the ground source HP market first, and now is expanging their lineup. I suspect they will become a bit better known as time goes on.

 

[jshillin]

Had my last estimate today and they were a couple grand higher for the same setup...

I went with the Amana Inverter setup because of the warranty and I haven't heard or read much bad about them.

Scheduled the install for next Wednesday, 3/7. The guy I'm scheduling it with isn't the lowest out of the quotes I received, but he has been really knowledgeable, modified my quotes several times and answered a million questions for me every time I called. He not only does the quotes, but does installs too, that makes me feel better than the guys that don't do the work and only writes quotes.

Amana AVZC18 3 ton 18 SEER Inverter setup with the Comfortnet Thermostat, AVPEC air handler with aluminum coils, new line-set, new condensate pump, do some work on my ducts, adding a 2nd return, a by-pass humidifier and 2 wireless temp sensors so the thermostat can do averaging.

Dropping off the check for 1/2 tomorrow and I'm pretty excited about it.

 

[hichamaziz]

I think I am going to get them to try the leak sealant.

 

[jshillin]

I think I am going to get them to try the leak sealant.

I was going that route, but talked myself out of it.

I figured I'd be better off just replacing it now since I've had so much trouble with this 1 unit and not keep putting bandaids on it until both units go out and I'm out $15k at once instead of $8k now and another $7k later. Easier to handle in smaller chunks of money. Also, my current unit is R22 and only 10 SEER. Jumping up as much as I did should help with the electric bill a bit.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

Had my last estimate today and they were a couple grand higher for the same setup...

I went with the Amana Inverter setup because of the warranty and I haven't heard or read much bad about them.

Scheduled the install for next Wednesday, 3/7. The guy I'm scheduling it with isn't the lowest out of the quotes I received, but he has been really knowledgeable, modified my quotes several times and answered a million questions for me every time I called. He not only does the quotes, but does installs too, that makes me feel better than the guys that don't do the work and only writes quotes.

Amana AVZC18 3 ton 18 SEER Inverter setup with the Comfortnet Thermostat, AVPEC air handler with aluminum coils, new line-set, new condensate pump, do some work on my ducts, adding a 2nd return, a by-pass humidifier and 2 wireless temp sensors so the thermostat can do averaging.

Dropping off the check for 1/2 tomorrow and I'm pretty excited about it.

That's the kind of guy I'd want to go with. You may get lucky with the lowest bidder, but generally the lowest bidder is the lowest bidder because they need to be. If he's knowledgeable about his trade and passionate about doing things right, paying another couple hundred up front may pay off over the life of the gear, as well as in less quantify-able ways, like your comfort.

I've reviewed the installation manual for my system (came with the house), and the installer did NOT follow the instructions! as a result, it transmits more noise to the house than needed. what's quiet worth to you? I know i can't pay someone $100 to evac the system and re-do the lines now...

 

[jshillin]

They started on it today, old units out, new heat pump and air handler are in and wired, linesets connected, thermostat replaced. They had to pull out the plenum and part of the trunk off of the air handler because it was pretty well ****. Easier and better to place than fix it. I had a feeling that was going to be the case and I'm glad they are doing it. They will be back tomorrow to install the humidifier, plumb the 2nd return and then build the rest of the plenum/trunk and test everything.

 

[jshillin]

They finished up the install today. I played around with the settings for a bit and I think I have them where I want them. It's a night & day difference in here compared to the old unit.

The Amana is so much quieter that it's crazy. We kept the old unit set to 72 and it wouldn't get above 66 on one side of the house and would be 72 on the other. I only have the thermostat set to 70 and it's 70 everywhere in the house, but it feels so much warmer. The humidity was 22% before we kicked on the humidifier about 5pm and up to 41% now.

I'm definitely happy... I think the 2nd 16x20" return they added made a good difference and I know some of the duct work they ripped out and replaced made a good difference also. For as much as they had to rip out and replace, they only charged $200 extra and I was really happy about that one.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

They finished up the install today. I played around with the settings for a bit and I think I have them where I want them. It's a night & day difference in here compared to the old unit.

The Amana is so much quieter that it's crazy. We kept the old unit set to 72 and it wouldn't get above 66 on one side of the house and would be 72 on the other. I only have the thermostat set to 70 and it's 70 everywhere in the house, but it feels so much warmer. The humidity was 22% before we kicked on the humidifier about 5pm and up to 41% now.

I'm definitely happy... I think the 2nd 16x20" return they added made a good difference and I know some of the duct work they ripped out and replaced made a good difference also. For as much as they had to rip out and replace, they only charged $200 extra and I was really happy about that one.

Glad to hear it's working out nicely. that second return probably helps keep the temps more even, reduces indoor noise (lower volume/velocity in the return ducts). I bet your bills are lower, too.

 

[yeldogt]

I'm sure you notice that it's running more. You will feel more comfortable when a unit runs for long periods matching the load. It's also moving the air around.

Have mine set to continuous fan -- it's so low that you really can not feel the low CFM that's going through the duct system -- but it keeps everything equal throughout the day.

I never did much setback -- you should give it a month maximizing your comfort and see costs. I can't tell the difference w/ the setback .. so I don't.

Take some pictures --

 

[jshillin]

I'm sure you notice that it's running more. You will feel more comfortable when a unit runs for long periods matching the load. It's also moving the air around.

Have mine set to continuous fan -- it's so low that you really can not feel the low CFM that's going through the duct system -- but it keeps everything equal throughout the day.

I never did much setback -- you should give it a month maximizing your comfort and see costs. I can't tell the difference w/ the setback .. so I don't.

Take some pictures --

Yeah, it definitely runs longer. The installer told me to expect longer run times, but it's even a little longer than I expected. I'm not complaining though, even when it was below 30 degrees last night, it still ran at 60-70% most of the time.

The only little change I have in temps is drop 2 degrees at night, but comes back up before we get out of bed.

 

[yeldogt]

My unit is the carrier 5 speed ... I have zoning .. so I can see how the unit closes off supplies to area its sun throughout the day ... it's using 1 and occasionally 2 ... it will switch to 2 and 3 this evening as the temps drop. It has to get cold before it running very much in 4 ... 5 is really cold or if i bump it up a few if I'm away for a few days.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

Yeah, it definitely runs longer. The installer told me to expect longer run times, but it's even a little longer than I expected. I'm not complaining though, even when it was below 30 degrees last night, it still ran at 60-70% most of the time.

The only little change I have in temps is drop 2 degrees at night, but comes back up before we get out of bed.

Long runtimes are good assuming it's meeting the load (maintaining thermostat setpoint) - basically means it's running at higher efficiency than a simpler system would be.

Make sure you're not using aux to come out of your 2F setback, or you'll be throwing savings out the window.